I've never understood why...

[AirScott]

guys, chill out. Shingo is the closer, and he had given Ozzie no reason not to give him the ball in the 9th. it's too early to say Shingo shouldn't be our closer, give it some time. also, for the people who don't understand why there are designated closers, name a team in the past, say, 10 years that made the World Series without a designated closer (cause I don't feel like looking it up myself, though I'm pretty sure every team did).

[Yossarian]

guys, chill out.  Shingo is the closer, and he had given Ozzie no reason not to give him the ball in the 9th.  it's too early to say Shingo shouldn't be our closer, give it some time.  also, for the people who don't understand why there are designated closers, name a team in the past, say, 10 years that made the World Series without a designated closer (cause I don't feel like looking it up myself, though I'm pretty sure every team did).

In business, in life, in baseball, thinking should never get stagnant. Going by the "book" may have cost us a game. I don't give a whit for the orthodoxies of baseball or of life. Just get it done, and don't be afraid to "think outside the box". Actually I hate cliches too, but what the hell, this seemed like as good a time as any.

[quickman]

In business, in life, in baseball, thinking should never get stagnant. Going by the "book" may have cost us a game. I don't give a whit for the orthodoxies of baseball or of life. Just get it done, and don't be afraid to "think outside the box". Actually I hate cliches too, but what the hell, this seemed like as good a time as any.

 

 

Well I agree with your premise but what person on this board thought that shingo would give up 3 hr's in the ninth inning. Back to your premise if Shingo does his job in baseball, life and at the chop suey table, then none of us would be talking about OZzies managing. Shingo blew the game not Ozzie.

[jackie hayes]

Well I agree with your premise but what person on this board thought that shingo would give up 3 hr's in the ninth inning. Back to your premise if Shingo does his job in baseball, life and at the chop suey table, then none of us would be talking about OZzies managing. Shingo blew the game not Ozzie.

It's not one or the other. They were both bad.

[quickman]

It's not one or the other.  They were both bad.

 

 

My point was and still is, that Ozzie got us to the ninth inning with a three run lead and his closer coming in to close out a game. Its the job of the closer to close the game. Do the job and nobody talks about how many pitchers we used. NOBODY. In fact I again will point out there is probably nobody on this board or in the stands that thought Shingo would blow a 3 run lead with three outs to go. Any takers?

[GoodAsGould]

My point was and still is, that Ozzie got us to the ninth inning with a three run lead and his closer coming in to close out a game. Its the job of the closer to close the game. Do the job and nobody talks about how many pitchers we used. NOBODY. In fact I again will point out there is probably nobody on this board or in the stands that thought Shingo would blow a 3 run lead with three outs to go. Any takers?

 

 

nah even if Shingo gets the save.... ill be happy with the win yes, but i was questioning the use of 3 RP's in 1 inning even b4 Shingo came in so

[jackie hayes]

My point was and still is, that Ozzie got us to the ninth inning with a three run lead and his closer coming in to close out a game. Its the job of the closer to close the game. Do the job and nobody talks about how many pitchers we used. NOBODY. In fact I again will point out there is probably nobody on this board or in the stands that thought Shingo would blow a 3 run lead with three outs to go. Any takers?

But you always have to keep in mind that it could happen. I mean, I don't think Shingo would blow a 1 run lead with three outs to go. But that doesn't mean I blow through my relievers in the 8th, b/c there's always that chance.

[quickman]

nah even if Shingo gets the save.... ill be happy with the win yes, but i was questioning the use of 3 RP's in 1 inning even b4 Shingo came in so 

 

 

That's your right. quite frankly everybody questions everything. I question why we still have crede on this team, doesn't get me anywhere.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

How many closer by committee bullpens have been successful though?  Hermanson blew some big ones last year.  I also remember a game where Politte dominated the 8th inning and came out for the 9th and quickly gave up two hits.

 

Shingo's command was off today, he usually doesn't leave those fastballs up like that.

 

Last year Hermanson had 17 saves in 20 save opportunities. He is also one of our few relievers who is capable of pitching 2-5 innings. Hermanson absolutely should have got the call in the 9th. No disrespect meant for Shingo but as previously mentioned Guillen had already used up quite a bit of the bullpen with his 1/3 inning binge. After saying all preseason that he wouldn't be afraid to use different pitchers to close out the game Guillen possibly let a personal decision to get Shingo another save interfer with the outcome of the game and contradicted himself in the process.

[JUGGERNAUT]

I already weighed in on this in the game thread, but I'll weigh in here as well.

Oz's decision to bring in Shingo to close it out was the right decision.

Relief is all about matchups. Shingo's 2004 #'s vs CLE made him the better

bet then letting Herm face the guys who had a successful 7th.

 

OZ lost this game in the 7th when he used up Cotts, Herm, & Marte in 1 inning. That left him with no less than 6 outs, & 3 arms to finish the game with a 5-2 LEAD.

 

Experience alone should have told him that you have to prepare for extra innings at the Cell. That experience comes from last year & the last game.

It's a HR park.

 

He never should have used Marte in the 7th. He should have relieved Contreras with Politte & if Politte got in trouble bring in Cotts.

 

That saves Marte for the 9th if Shingo gets in trouble & I would definitely consider a 5-4 game after Shingo served up 2 HR's trouble.

[Punch and Judy Garland]

I think by using all of those relievers a little bit, all hands would have been on deck tomorrow night at Minnesota. Herm might not have been able to go tomorrow if he went a couple today. Obviously, things worked out to where one or more guys isn't available tomorrow but that might have been the original thinking.

[nitetrain8601]

I'm not going to question Shingo being left in there because I certainly didn't expect him to give up 3 HR's. I second guess using up the bullpen that dumbly though just in case Shingo doesn't get the save. Now they only had 1 guy available who pitched the previous game and they wanted him to last 3 or 4 innings. That's not smart. What was up with Widger warming up. I saw him in the bullpen. Did they say anything on tv about it??

[southsider2k5]

I had no problem bringing in shingo, its what he is paid to do. Rivera of the yankees got rocked twice in two games, do you not go to him. Of course you do. Not saying they are the same pitcher but the concept is the same. I am certain that Wedge would have gone back to wickman today if they had a one run lead. You figure your up by three going into the ninth, you have your closer who closed out a 1-0 ballgame two days ago. I would say no problem. It was a horrible game to watch especially being there. if this continues then I am sure Ozzie will get a feel for the bullpen. He learned from koch last year, he won't let this get out of hand.

 

By the way we will lose games this year. Just came to that conclusion.

 

Good post quicky. You have got to be able to count on your non-Billy Koch closer to close out a 3 run lead. Period.

[LosMediasBlancas]

I agree, screw the rightie/leftie match ups, go with the hot hand. If a starter has gone 7 strong innings, obviously the rightie/leftie match ups haven't been an issue. Why would it suddenly change in the 8th and 9th?

In hindsight maybe Ozzie should have had more arms in the pen today, what if Shingo got drilled by a picth and had to be pulled? On the other hand, I can't blame Ozzie for today. You don't expect your closer to come in and s*** all over himsel like Shingo did today.

[greg775]

Dustin Hermanson looked great in the 8th. Ozzie lifted him just because Takatsu is the "closer." I've never understood that mentality.

 

--I agree with you, but also agree with those who said this is the

way the game has "evolved."

Everybody does it so we did today and got burned.

But like Donkey said, it's not always automatic as he had some

examples, too.

It is frustrating though.

It really was frustrating when we did it for Koch.

Yikes!

Hopefully like you said it was just a bad day for Shingo!

[Carlo Paz]

What I don't understand (and no one has mentioned) is how the f*** do you leave Shingo in there after the second HR. Was no one warming up? Why not? Was anyone here surprised when the third one went out? I doubt it. Disgusted maybe, but not surprised.

We saw this time and time again with Keith Foulke. He would come in and obviously have nothing and get shelled for a heartbreaking loss, but we had to stick with him because he's the closer.

Stupid s*** like this makes me hate watching the games.

[GoodAsGould]

That's your right. quite frankly everybody questions everything. I question why we still have crede on this team, doesn't get me anywhere.

 

 

Yeah but Crede has nothing to do with managerial skills... Putting 3 RP's in a game in 1 inning, that is something that shouldnt happen. If anything Ozzie should of just put Marte or Politte in the 7th and than Hermason would of had the 8th and than after Shingo blew the save we would of still had Cotts, Vizcaino, and one of Marte or Politte...

 

But i dont mind too much, Ozzie still is a young manager and as long as he keeps learning from his mistakes its ok, also any time you win a series its a good thing so im still happy going into the twins series.

[Carlo Paz]

But i dont mind too much,  Ozzie still is a young manager and as long as he keeps learning from his mistakes its ok,  also any time you win a series its a good thing so im still happy going into the twins series. 

 

Yeah, it would be great if the idiot learned something. Here's his quote in the Trib...

"We think we made all the right moves," Guillen said. "Every pitch [Takatsu] made was up in the strike zone, and he paid for it."

Way to learn something skipper.

[YASNY]

This bullpen was designed to get to Shingo in the 9th. That's exactly the way it was used. The fact that the Minnesota series is coming is probably why Ozzie used 3 pitchers in the 7th. He wanted to give all of them a little work as a tune up before the series. As it was said, after the 7th he needed 6 outs and had 3 arms available to get them, and a 3 run lead. I'd take those odds any day. "Thinking outside the box" requires thinking outside the limits of a particular ballgame, like when you have a big series coming up and want to prepare everybody as well as possible. It backfired. s*** happens.

[Chisoxfn]

While I agree with you as I'm completely against having a "closer," this game was messed up in the seventh when Guillen used three pitchers, and then a fourth in the eighth inning. He can't just expect Takatsu is going to finish the game without question. You have to leave a couple relievers in the pen.

Man, this topic reminds me of all the heated arguments we had on some of the road trips in regards to closers and different baseball stuff.

 

I tend to agree in some instances, but when you have a guy to close the door your typically best off using him, as long as his name ain't Koch.

 

Ugly game though, really ugly, but in perspective. The Sox stole yesterdays game, the tribe stole todays. I'll look at the bright side of things and Contreras looking really sharp (kills me to say it) but the key will be consistency with him. He had insane movement though and good command.

 

On the negative side, this is the 3rd time I've seen Luis pitch (Twice in the reg season, once in the spring) and I got to say thus far I think he's horrid. His fastball lacks the juice it had last year (i've seen him throw with the Brewers on many ocassions and always like him). Plus he leaves his slider up in the zone and thus far I haven't seen him throw one good slider.

 

I'm skeptical simply because he just leaves the ball up and its getting hammered.

[Chisoxfn]

That's usually because the bullpen by committee is first, an idiotic thing to do, second, it usually means you have no quality relievers.

 

By leaving a guy like Hermanson in for the ninth after he pitches the eighth isn't a bad thing in a three-run game, especially after you waisted three relievers for no reason whatsoever the inning before.

 

I'm not agreeing with the point of the thread, just saying why leaving in Hermanson wouldn't be a bad thing. Personally, I would've never used three relievers in the seventh, because that is now a problem with Garland down there.

Ya, it was totally ridiculous using all those relievers. I guess it paid off in a point, but all things considering it left Shingo and Vizcaino for the rest of the way. I guess they could of opted with Garland but it wasn't a good position to be in, thats for sure.

[Chisoxfn]

Looking back, I was probably a bit harsh on my assesment of Vizcaino. Come to think of it, he pitched in yesterdays game and then had to go a few innings todays game and didn't give the runs up until he was absolutely gassed.

 

This loss was definately on Ozzie. It wasn't for bringing in Takatsu though, it was for pissing away 3 pitchers in 1 inning. Ozzie needs to have fiath in his guys. Seems like he has tons of faith in Cotts, but he really lacks it in Marte.

[Steve Bartman's my idol]

My point was and still is, that Ozzie got us to the ninth inning with a three run lead and his closer coming in to close out a game. Its the job of the closer to close the game. Do the job and nobody talks about how many pitchers we used. NOBODY. In fact I again will point out there is probably nobody on this board or in the stands that thought Shingo would blow a 3 run lead with three outs to go. Any takers?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You are right, I never did think that Shingo would blow the lead, however, while listening to the game, I was a little pissed that Ozzie took out Dustin, he should of at least started the ninth inning, if someone gets on, then bring in Shingo.

[striker]

Dustin Hermanson looked great in the 8th. Ozzie lifted him just because Takatsu is the "closer." I've never understood that mentality. I mean, if you have Rivera or Gagne, fine, but no one else should get that automatic call, IMO.

 

This is not a second guess. I was thinking this when Shingo came out there for the ninth. Now the game is tied and I'm not sure what pitchers are left if they need extra innings. Maybe Vizcaino.

 

Hopefully we can win it in the bottom of the ninth so it won't matter.

 

Ozzie has Takatsu on his Fantasy team.

[JUGGERNAUT]

The meltdown had me focusing more on pitch counts. Ozzie needs to do the same. I ignored that split for the most part for the past couple of years but it really does help to define a player's strength & weaknesses.

 

I was surprised to find Shingo's OPS vs to be as high as 840 when he throws more than 15 pitches. But no one can argue with his 439 OPS vs for his first 15 pitches. For every save opportunity Oz needs to view Shingo as a closer on a short leash. If he can't get it done in 15-20 pitches yank him.