hammerhead johnson Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 (edited) QUOTE(rangercal @ Apr 9, 2005 -> 07:05 PM) MJ had to earn everything he got. He was criticized about his D in the mid to late 80's. Jordan was All NBA First team defense every year he played from the 87-88 season to the 97-98 season. He was also Defensive Player Of The Year in 1987. He is arguably the greatest defensive SG of all time. I think that he's unquestionably the greatest defensive SG, but I won't leave myself open to criticism from someone who witnessed Walt Frazier. Edited April 9, 2005 by hammerhead johnson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rangercal Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 QUOTE(hammerhead johnson @ Apr 9, 2005 -> 01:21 PM) Jordan was All NBA First team defense every year he played from the 87-88 season to the 97-98 season. He was also Defensive Player Of The Year in 1987. He is arguably the greatest defensive SG of all time. I think that he's unquestionably the greatest defensive SG, but I won't leave myself open to criticism from someone who witnessed Walt Frazier. He Was the greatest defensive sg off all time. He was not getting credit for it though in his early seasons because his super explosive offense overshadowed it . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 (edited) QUOTE(rangercal @ Apr 9, 2005 -> 07:27 PM) He Was the greatest defensive sg off all time. He was not getting credit for it though in his early seasons because his super explosive offense overshadowed it . You said that he was criticized about his D in the mid-to-late 80s, when in fact, knowledgeable NBA heads knew he was a great defensive player due primarily to his work ethic and his competitive nature. Remember, all of these NBA players have the physical skills. It's the little things that separate the champs from the chumps. Also, overshadowed according to who, exactly? The dumbass media? The average NBA fan who just doesn't bring any ammunition to the table when discussing basketball? Edited April 9, 2005 by hammerhead johnson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palehosefan Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 I've gotta disagree about Wade being a liability on D. He is 10th in the NBA in overall steals and 12th in steals per game. Yes I know steals aren't the only thing that matter, but he is very quick and has long arms. He's atleast an average defender and I would argue a plus defender. We will see how well Lebron plays D when he's 23-24 when Jordan came into his own defensively. Is Lebron overhyped? Of course, he's the most hyped player in any sports history, atleast American history. Its impossible for Lebron to live up to the hype, he's supposed to be the greatest player of his generation, possibly of all time, anything short of that and he will be dissapointing to some. I don't think he will ever be the defensive force MJ was, just because Lebron has a much bigger body and can't be as quick as MJ. Nor do I think Lebron has the same attitude MJ does/did, which could limit his games potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 You could make a case that Tiger Woods is quite overhyped at least for the past year or so, since until recently he'd been playing like crap. Woods lived up to his hype though when he first entered, but he was also hyped up to be the greatest of all time. We'll see if he ends up being that or not. Also, I've watched quite a few Cleveland games and I already think Lebron is a good defender as long as he's guarding SG's and SF's. If he's on a PG he doesn't have the quickness, but he can still harass them with his big body. And I don't know if I saw it here, but someone said Deng can't play that good of defense? If so I've long said anyone that feels that way is nuts. He's pretty much as close to Iggy as it gets imo. Deng and him will both be all defensive players when things are over. I give Iggy the nod defensively while Deng gets the nod offensively. You really couldn't complain about either, imo and both were great value picks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 QUOTE(Palehosefan @ Apr 9, 2005 -> 09:08 PM) I've gotta disagree about Wade being a liability on D. He is 10th in the NBA in overall steals and 12th in steals per game. Yes I know steals aren't the only thing that matter, but he is very quick and has long arms. He's atleast an average defender and I would argue a plus defender. He's an average defender at best and a liability in the playoffs IMO. Steals is one of the things I look at if we're talking about defense from a PG, but it's really just the tip of the iceberg. First off, is a guy consistent? Can he string together good defensive games? Can he stay on the ball and prevent his man from penetrating? What's his stamina like? How is he at anticipating a pass or sniffing out what the offense wants to do in a particular situation? Does he attempt too many steals in PG vs PG isolation? Can he sniff out screens? Can he defend the pick and roll? Can he defend on the fast break? Can he prevent his man from posting him up and getting an easy shot? Competitive fire? Etc, etc. I look at all of these things and then some, and Dwyane Wade, well, he ain't no Jason Kidd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 QUOTE(hammerhead johnson @ Apr 9, 2005 -> 01:32 PM) He's an average defender at best and a liability in the playoffs IMO. Steals is one of the things I look at if we're talking about defense from a PG, but it's really just the tip of the iceberg. First off, is a guy consistent? Can he string together good defensive games? Can he stay on the ball and prevent his man from penetrating? What's his stamina like? How is he at anticipating a pass or sniffing out what the offense wants to do in a particular situation? Does he attempt too many steals in PG vs PG isolation? Can he sniff out screens? Can he defend the pick and roll? Can he defend on the fast break? Can he prevent his man from posting him up and getting an easy shot? Competitive fire? Etc, etc. I look at all of these things and then some, and Dwyane Wade, well, he ain't no Jason Kidd. Kidd is no Kirk Hinrich either. Defensively I take Captain Kirk over most every point guard, imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Apr 9, 2005 -> 09:23 PM) Also, I've watched quite a few Cleveland games and I already think Lebron is a good defender as long as he's guarding SG's and SF's. If he's on a PG he doesn't have the quickness, but he can still harass them with his big body. I agree about SFs and big SGs, but he's at a disadvantage against the prototypical 6'5 and 6'6 SGs in this league on defense. And if we're talking about small SGs, OMG, forget about it. Like Rowand said, he's a Magic Johnson figure through and through. Now, you just gotta get him Worthy, Jabbar, Cooper, Green, Scott, etc. Because the fun-and-gun could only work with a s***load of all-star caliber players. I much prefer a superb defensive squad like the 88-91 Pistons, 90s Bulls, 91-94 Knicks, modern day Spurs, Pistons, and pre-brawl Pacers, etc. I could tell from your posts that you feel the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 I nominate this for the worst thread ever. Hype? Are you kidding me? Anyone who knows anything about the NBA knows that there are maybe four players in the league who are better than him and it can be successfully argued that he is the best player in the league. There is no one who could've lived up to the expectations that were set on this guy. He has in fact lived up to them as best as possible and has taken a team that lost its best inside player from last year to a possible playoff spot. Give me a break on the not living up to the hype. If he was on the Bulls you'd be slurping him up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 QUOTE(aboz56 @ Apr 9, 2005 -> 03:44 PM) I nominate this for the worst thread ever. Hype? Are you kidding me? Anyone who knows anything about the NBA knows that there are maybe four players in the league who are better than him and it can be successfully argued that he is the best player in the league. There is no one who could've lived up to the expectations that were set on this guy. He has in fact lived up to them as best as possible and has taken a team that lost its best inside player from last year to a possible playoff spot. Give me a break on the not living up to the hype. If he was on the Bulls you'd be slurping him up. With all things considred OVERALL (Shooting, Defense, FT's, Assists) I think LeBron is the best player in the league by those standards Shaq on the other.. (Pure Dominance) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Apr 9, 2005 -> 09:36 PM) Kidd is no Kirk Hinrich either. Defensively I take Captain Kirk over most every point guard, imo. Since the 98-99 season, Jason Kidd has been All-NBA First Team Defense four times, and All-NBA Second Team twice. Him and glove are really the two that you ahve to look at over the past dozen years or so. Hinrich has a plus side with superior work ethic and basketball know-how, but the physical skills are lacking. Plus, he's not a PG, although he can defend them on the defensive end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 QUOTE(T R U @ Apr 9, 2005 -> 09:49 PM) With all things considred OVERALL (Shooting, Defense, FT's, Assists) I think LeBron is the best player in the league by those standards Shaq on the other.. (Pure Dominance) He is numero uno in the league if we're talking court vision. Three of the four categories you mentioned (shooting, assists, FTs) apply primarily to the backcourt. You can say that he's the best backcourt player in the league right now all things considered, and I might buy it. Take away 90% of my brain power (of the 10% that I'm using) and I'm still taking KG and Duncan 365 days a year, 24/7 without even giving it a second thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 QUOTE(hammerhead johnson @ Apr 9, 2005 -> 03:58 PM) He is numero uno in the league if we're talking court vision. Three of the four categories you mentioned (shooting, assists, FTs) apply primarily to the backcourt. You can say that he's the best backcourt player in the league right now all things considered, and I might buy it. Take away 90% of my brain power (of the 10% that I'm using) and I'm still taking KG and Duncan 365 days a year, 24/7 without even giving it a second thought. LeBron didnt ask for Court Vision Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 QUOTE(T R U @ Apr 9, 2005 -> 10:00 PM) LeBron didnt ask for Court Vision Hmm, what did he ask for? Riches and b****es? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHarris1 Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 On a sperate note, is it just me or is LeBrons jumper very mediocre? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFanForever Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Apr 9, 2005 -> 10:05 PM) On a sperate note, is it just me or is LeBrons jumper very mediocre? I would have to agree with you and say it is a "work in progress" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 QUOTE(hammerhead johnson @ Apr 9, 2005 -> 04:04 PM) Hmm, what did he ask for? Riches and b****es? quite possibly... I was just quoting the Nike commercial Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Apr 9, 2005 -> 04:05 PM) On a sperate note, is it just me or is LeBrons jumper very mediocre? I dont know about you but I dont think theres anything wrong with his jumper.. every time I see him play he has shot great Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHarris1 Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 I dunno I obviously don't watch that many Cavs games but when they played the Bulls he was horrid with his jumper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Apr 9, 2005 -> 04:09 PM) I dunno I obviously don't watch that many Cavs games but when they played the Bulls he was horrid with his jumper. Ive seen a few on TNT and sometimes he hits these jumpers over people that just make me say wow.. how did he hit that?? Everytime Ive seen him on TV though hes been carrying the sorry ass Cavs on his back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palehosefan Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 Honestly though hammer, how many PG's do you see that can defend all those sets successfully? Kidd and Payton have been the gold standard so to speak, but you won't really find other point guards that have complete games. Wade has the ability and the stamina to join the All-Defensive teams before his days are over, he just has to work harder on that and his outside jumper, then he will be absolutely unstoppable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 QUOTE(Palehosefan @ Apr 9, 2005 -> 10:35 PM) Honestly though hammer, how many PG's do you see that can defend all those sets successfully? Kidd and Payton have been the gold standard so to speak, but you won't really find other point guards that have complete games. Wade has the ability and the stamina to join the All-Defensive teams before his days are over, he just has to work harder on that and his outside jumper, then he will be absolutely unstoppable. Yeah, good defensive PGs are very hard to come by in this league. Wade has a lot of upside, but he has a looong way to go before he can be considered as a 1st or 2nd tier defender at PG IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palehosefan Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 Yep, I can agree with that. I just want him to develop a decent outside shot, that would be scary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 QUOTE(Palehosefan @ Apr 9, 2005 -> 07:15 PM) Yep, I can agree with that. I just want him to develop a decent outside shot, that would be scary. Yes, his 30 something percent jump shots scare no one. But when he is in the paint he is a freak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleepyWhiteSox Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 QUOTE(hammerhead johnson @ Apr 9, 2005 -> 05:53 PM) Yeah, good defensive PGs are very hard to come by in this league. Wade has a lot of upside, but he has a looong way to go before he can be considered as a 1st or 2nd tier defender at PG IMO. So who exactly is ahead of him in these 1st and 2nd tiers of yours? Not at least putting him in your "2nd tier" seems like you're devaluing his defense. I really don't see two tiers of current PG's in front of him at all... Kidd has been dropping off this year too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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