White Sox @ Twins: 4/10/05 Game Thread

[Rowand44]

Why is it ridiculous?  A Cy Young form implies the best in the league.  Where is Santana's history that he's been able to keep that form more than 1/2 a season?

He's got more than enough starts under his belt now to determine if he's going to be consistently great or occasionally great.  Pedro is another pitcher that comes to mind

that has yet to prove to any one he can be consistently great.  I see Santana & I think of Pedro. 

 

BTW did you look at his pc (93)?  Kind of odd for a guy who gives up 4ER in the 1st

& then shutsout a team for the next 4 innings.  Why not let him pitch another inning?

Could it be he ran out of gas?  The score was 7-4 at the time.  Not a typical situation were you would yank your starter after the 5th.  He's not invulnerable & he may not be long lasting either.

Riiiight, so you're trying to prove to me that Johan isn't that great by comparing him to Pedro?? What history would you like to see, last year was the first year he was a full time starter and he was coming off surgery during the offseason and you're going to use that to base it on him not being in cy young form, whatever.

[qwerty]

If you think of pedro when you are thinking about santana you are looking at the best pitcher in th elast decade. Guess that does not mean too much at this point.

 

Santanan may not last long because he gave up four runs in the very first start and very first inning of the regular season?

 

Sorry that just made me laugh jugger.

 

Be hopeful all you want it is not very likely.

[JUGGERNAUT]

It amazes me how some people are treating Santana. Halladay accomplished just as much & where is he now? He's still a good pitcher but he's never recaptured his Cy Young form.

 

Santana's had one good year as a starting pitcher. He's had only 4 great months as a Cy Young pitcher. Before that he didn't even have enough innings to qualify as a front-line starter.

 

To consider him in the same venue as Johnson is ridiculous. As far as I'm concerned he's a 4 month wonder who won the Cy Young. He'll have to prove it this year to convince me he's anything close to Johnson.

 

As for Pedro being the best pitcher in the last decade? Please. I'll tell you what. Let's compare the best innings pitched from the other leaders to the innings Pedro pitched.

He probably falls out of the top 10. He's been on the shelf so much he barely even qualified as a front-line starter in some years.

 

The best pitcher in the last decade is probably Clemens. The post-season counts.

Next to him is probably Johnson & then Schilling. These guys all have the rings, the wins, the innings, & the awards.

Edited April 10, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT

[Rowand44]

It amazes me how some people are treating Santana.  Halladay accomplished just as much & where is he now?  He's still a good pitcher but he's never recaptured his Cy Young form. 

 

Santana's had one good year as a starting pitcher.  He's had only 4 great months as a Cy Young pitcher.  Before that he didn't even have enough innings to qualify as a front-line starter. 

 

To consider him in the same venue as Johnson is ridiculous.  As far as I'm concerned he's a 4 month wonder who won the Cy Young.  He'll have to prove it this year to convince me he's anything close to Johnson.

You love crunching numbers so much look at his stats in 02 and 03, the guy was always good and Minny never gave him a shot to start for a full year, he got that chance and ran with it, he's a great pitcher and I don't understand how you can think otherwise.

[Wedge]

I'm going to agree with Juggs here. Santana needs to prove himself again this season before we consider him an elite pitcher. We had a guy on our staff (Loaiza) last year that many were ready to give elite status to because of his outstanding season the year before. Now he's garbage. Santana looked unbeatable last year, but things happen year to year. Let's see a month of baseball to decide just how good the competition is!

[Rowand44]

I'm going to agree with Juggs here.  Santana needs to prove himself again this season before we consider him an elite pitcher.  We had a guy on our staff (Loaiza) last year that many were ready to give elite status to because of his outstanding season the year before.  Now he's garbage.  Santana looked unbeatable last year, but things happen year to year.  Let's see a month of baseball to decide just how good the competition is!

Once again, it wasn't just one season he was great in 02 and 03 also.

 

EDIT: He split 02 and 03 between starting and relieving here are his starting stats. 02: 74.2 innings pitched, 89 k's, 3.13 era. In 03: 110.1 innings pitched, 109 k's, 2.86 era.

Edited April 10, 2005 by Rowand44

[knightni]

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2005 by knightni

[JUGGERNAUT]

You love crunching numbers so much look at his stats in 02 and 03, the guy was always good and Minny never gave him a shot to start for a full year, he got that chance and ran with it, he's a great pitcher and I don't understand how you can think otherwise.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Let's settle this the easiest way. It's game 7 of the WS at Yankee stadium. You can pick any arm you want to start the game. List your top 10 choices:

 

1-Johnson

2-Schilling

3-Clemens

4-Beckett

5-Schmidt

6-Hudson

7-Buehrle

8-Sheets

9-Pedro

10-Santana

[Rowand44]

Let's settle this the easiest way.  It's game 7 of the WS at Yankee stadium.  You can pick any arm you want to start the game.  List your top 10 choices:

 

1-Johnson

2-Schilling

3-Clemens

4-Beckett

5-Schmidt

6-Hudson

7-Buehrle

8-Sheets

9-Pedro

10-Santana

And this proves what?? If you're asking where I'd put Johan in a list probably somewhere in the top 3 with Randy and Curt.

[Wedge]

Once again, it wasn't just one season he was great in 02 and 03 also.

 

EDIT: He split 02 and 03 between starting and relieving here are his starting stats.  02: 74.2 innings pitched, 89 k's, 3.13 era.  In 03: 110.1 innings pitched, 109 k's, 2.86 era.

 

I agree with what all you've said that he has been excellent so far, but you're not accounting for the wear that an entire season as a starting pitcher can put on the guy. What I think Juggs is trying to say (and what I am trying to say, for sure) is that the guy will probably be good again, but most likely will not have another Cy Young caliber season this year.

[Rowand44]

I agree with what all you've said that he has been excellent so far, but you're not accounting for the wear that an entire season as a starting pitcher can put on the guy.  What I think Juggs is trying to say (and what I am trying to say, for sure) is that the guy will probably be good again, but most likely will not have another Cy Young caliber season this year.

Alright, that's fair. I don't think he's going to have a season like he did last year because well that was ridiculous but imo he's perfectly capable of winning another cy young but what you said is certainly a valid opinion

[Rowand44]

Yeesh, I forgot this was the game thread, sorry about hijacking the thread. GO SOX

[JUGGERNAUT]

You're likewise dreaming about his 02 & 03 #'s.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/alp02.htm

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/alp03.htm

There were over a dozen guys that had the same range of innings as him

who pitched better than him both years. That's when he wasn't a front line starter.

 

No one doubts he had arguably the best 4 months (Jun-Sep) that any one's ever seen. He even continued it in the post season. But he's yet to prove he's anything close to an elite pitcher.

 

FYI: Have you looked at his pc's the past 4 starts? Going back to 04.

Apr 05 @SEA 5ip, 4ER, 94pc

Oct 09 vNYY 5ip, 1ER, 87pc MIN losses

Oct 05 @NYY 7ip, 0ER, 93pc

Sep 29 @NYY 5ip, 1ER, 71pc MIN losses

 

In his phenomenal months of Jun, Jul, & Aug he routinely ran a pc of 100+.

Is it just possible that like Halladay his arm had a greater load than he had ever experienced in his career to date & like Halladay he might fall down a few notches in greatness this year?

Edited April 10, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT

[GoodAsGould]

lol did someone say that Santana is not as good as he was anymore because in his 1st start of the season in the 1st inning he gave up 4 runs.... thats about the dumbest thing ive ever heard.... and after those 4 runs he totally shutdown the mariners anyways

[Mr. Showtime]

Sox lineup according to yahoo:

 

P. Ozuna lf

T. Iguchi 2b

C. Everett dh

P. Konerko 1b

J. Dye rf

A. Rowand cf

A.J. Pierzynski c

J. Crede 3b

J. Uribe ss

[Reddy]

i dont know ozuna very well, should he really be leading off in his first at bat against Santana? i'd let him get a chance to see his pitching... let him go lower in the order... i dont know just me.

[JUGGERNAUT]

lol did someone say that Santana is not as good as he was anymore because in his 1st start of the season in the 1st inning he gave up 4 runs.... thats about the dumbest thing ive ever heard.... and after those 4 runs he totally shutdown the mariners anyways 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't believe any body said that. I know I didn't. I said his start in SEA coupled with his weak pc's his last 4 starts going back to 04 suggest he's not as dominating as he was in the Jun-Sep of 04. If he had pitched 5IP, 1ER in SEA I would still feel this way because it's not the same thing as his 7-8IP per start he was doing last yr.

[GoodAsGould]

That tells me he's lost some of his Cy Young form & it might take him 1/2 a season to figure it out again.

 

umm let me say this again... the 1st start of the season in the 1st inning does not mean anything.... if you bothered to pay attention after that 1st inning you would notice that he get like 14 of the next 15 batters out the only hit being a weak single by Beltre... if anything it shows you he still has his Cy Young form just 1st game jitters or something.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Santana's pc's/mo 04: Apr 450, May 554, Jun 556, Jul 648, Aug 647, Sep 563.

Mark's pc's/mo 04: Apr 491, May 664, Jun 625, Jul 606, Aug 634, Sep 677

 

Mark has proven to be both a work horse & a good pitcher. Santana has not & his last 4 starts don't exactly suggest he will.

[JUGGERNAUT]

umm let me say this again... the 1st start of the season in the 1st inning does not mean anything.... if you bothered to pay attention after that 1st inning you would notice that he get like 14 of the next 15 batters out the only hit being a weak single by Beltre... if anything it shows you he still has his Cy Young form just 1st game jitters or something.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No it tells me he ran out of gas because he was taken out after a 93 pc w a 7-4 lead.

If he does that tonight I'm confident the WSox will win. And considering he's hovered around a 90 pc his last 4 starts I'm not really surprised.

[Rowand44]

No it tells me he ran out of gas because he was taken out after a 93 pc w a 7-4 lead.

If he does that tonight I'm confident the WSox will win.  And considering he's hovered around a 90 pc his last 4 starts I'm not really surprised.

You know what Juggs, I hope you're right. Lets do this Mark.

[JUGGERNAUT]

This might explain Santana's early exit in his 1st start:

He fell behind Ford but got him to GO in the bot 4th.

He fell behind Ichiro but got him to GO.

J Reed consumed 11 pitches before racking up a K.

He fell behind Beltre before getting him to FO.

 

It looks to me like he was running out of gas.

 

I looked at the other 4 starts & though the game logs aren't available there is the PC-ST totals. In all of them he had about a 30+ margin between balls & strikes. That might suggest a similar scenario. It would certainly explain why he left a do or die game vs the NYY after 5IP, leading 4-1 w an 87pc. The NYY went on to win that game & close out the Twins 3-1 in the first round. In the game they won you have to wonder again if he ran out of gas. If your SP was sitting on a pc of 93 after 7IP nursing a 2-0 lead would you take him out for Rincon? The other day El Duque was sitting at a 90 pc & Ozzie had him go out & pitch another inning. I think if you feel your starter has anything left you're going with him in the 8th. Ozzie would surely do that with Buehrle if he was at 93 after 7IN.

 

I'm not saying Santana's anything less than a Cy Young pitcher. But I think his last 4 starts & his lifetime numbers suggest he's a fragile one. Not unlike Pedro Martinez.

That's all I'm saying. That's why my top 10 list features the most durable & best pitchers at the top.

Edited April 10, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT

[Punch and Judy Garland]

Morneau is still out tonight right? Also, Ineed a steal from Gooch for my fantasy team so get running Tadahito!

[Melissa1334]

Atleast if we lose, we cant feel that bad considering Santana is pitching and weve already won the series... (didnt buehrle get roughed up the last time he faced the twins?)

[Punch and Judy Garland]

I think Buehrle is soemthing like 10-5 al-time against The twins and pitched well in the dome last year. Not sure about how he fared in late summer there but he was good early. I hope we get a 1-0 two hour classic tonight.