White Sox @ Twins: 4/10/05 Game Thread

[JUGGERNAUT]

:headshake

LMFAO!!!

"Playing the averages."

 

You statheads really amuse me.  Did you actually watch the game?  :banghead

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http://sports.yahoo.com/mlbpa/players/6441...4&type=Pitching

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlbpa/players/6525...4&type=Pitching

Apply their RON #'s to tonight's game. That's what playing the avg's mean.

 

Of course if you prefer to think that Santana is now a baseball God & his avg's mean nothing as we should expect perfection even in RON situations from here on out well you can live in that world but don't expect me to.

 

Santana should have been tagged w no less than 3R (no avg's being played there) & possibly a 4th (if you apply his avg's).

 

I happen to look at that as a good sign for the next time we face him. If we can drive up the counts better (less first pitch swings) & maybe drag some bunts we might have better success against him.

 

For those of us who did watch the games we saw the Twins are very weak at defensing drag bunts. They are too slow on the corners & on the mound to get the outs in those plays. Maybe other teams will figure this out & maybe not. I'm sure Ozzie has seen the same thing. Why the WSox didn't do more of this tonight when Ozuna beat out a simple play I don't know. They certainly have the personnel to get it done this year.

Edited April 11, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT

[3E8]

However, how was Iguchi able to hit twice off Johan, despite never seeing him prior to today? Some of our players need to ask him his approach and follow it.

I was pleasantly surprised with this. He made solid contact all four times he faced Santana. This after never having faced him, impressive.

[JUGGERNAUT]

For all you Santana is a can't miss Cy Young winner this year let me remind you that Randy Johnson now pitches for the Yankees. The team that usually leads the league in HR's & R. As long as he's healthy enough to pitch 30+ starts he's probably in line for the fewest losses & the most wins amongst all starters.

 

I'm lying my $ down on The Big Unit. Go ahead & put yours down on Santana. We'll see who wins.

 

I'm so sick of this Santana never s***s attitude amongst some of you. The guy pitches 7IP, w 11K, giving up 2ER (should have been 3 for sure), faciing 5 RISP, 2 out situations & you think he pitched great. He had nothing more than a quality start. Less stellar than what Mark did last Monday.

Edited April 11, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT

[Rowand44]

For all you  Santana is a can't miss Cy Young winner this year let me remind you that Randy Johnson now pitches for the Yankees.  The team that usually leads the league in HR's & R.  As long as he's healthy enough to pitch 30+ starts he's probably in line for the fewest losses & the most wins amongst all starters. 

 

I'm lying my $ down on The Big Unit.  Go ahead & put yours down on Santana.  We'll see who wins.

Nothing wrong with putting your money on randy to be the cy young but it's pretty obvious Johan is ain't a bad candidate to win it again.

[YASNY]

For all you  Santana is a can't miss Cy Young winner this year let me remind you that Randy Johnson now pitches for the Yankees.  The team that usually leads the league in HR's & R.  As long as he's healthy enough to pitch 30+ starts he's probably in line for the fewest losses & the most wins amongst all starters. 

 

I'm lying my $ down on The Big Unit.  Go ahead & put yours down on Santana.  We'll see who wins.

 

What does that have to do with tonight's game. Santana is Cy Young quality pitcher and he pitched his way out of those innings despite the situational averages.

[JUGGERNAUT]

What does that have to do with tonight's game.  Santana is Cy Young quality pitcher and he pitched his way out of those innings despite the situational averages.

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Might I remind you he was facing a team that has the worst RISP avg in the league.

It was hitting 125 w RISP, 2 Outs. It's now 077. It's now hitting 185 w RISP period.

You can hardly call this team a fair mark to measure Santana's greatness. However I can say that for a team hitting 240 in RON sits to get 2-3R off him I would say he looks weaker than he did last Aug.

 

Conversely opponents are hitting 261 vs WSox in RISP sits. Let's see how Santana does vs NYY (.239 RISP), BAL (289 RISP), TOR (350 RISP), CLE (222 RISP), BOS (234 RISP), DET (304 RISP), KCR (227 RISP), ANA (306 RISP).

 

The WSox are 4-2 on the strength of quality starts, above avg pen work, timely hits & HRs. But you can't do that forever. At some point if you're not among the leaders in average w RISP the losses are going to come your way. You can see the teams that have that edge right now. Let's see how Santana does against them before we consider him Cy Young worthy again.

[YASNY]

Might I remind you he was facing a team that has the worst RISP avg in the league.

It was hitting 125 w RISP, 2 Outs.  It's now 077.  It's now hitting 185 w RISP period.

You can hardly call this team a fair mark to measure Santana's greatness.  However I can say that for a team hitting 240 in RON sits to get 2-3R off him I would say he looks weaker than he did last Aug.

 

Conversely opponents are hitting 261 vs WSox in RISP sits.  Let's see how Santana does vs NYY (.239 RISP), BAL (289 RISP), TOR (350 RISP), CLE (222 RISP), BOS (234 RISP), DET (304 RISP), KCR (227 RISP), ANA (306 RISP). 

 

The WSox are 4-2 on the strength of quality starts, above avg pen work, timely hits & HRs.  But you can't do that forever.  At some point if you're not among the leaders in average w RISP the losses are going to come your way.  You can see the teams that have that edge right now.  Let's see how Santana does against them before we consider him Cy Young worthy again.

 

I'd say the guy who currently holds the Cy Young award could be considered worthy.

[Gene Honda Civic]

:headshake

LMFAO!!!

"Playing the averages."

 

You statheads really amuse me.  Did you actually watch the game?  :banghead

I think you'd prolly consider me a stathead...

 

Don't lump any of us in with Jugger. He's just plain looney

[WilliamTell]

I'd say Johnson as the Cy Young winner too.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Incidentally MIN (333 RISP). Opp 280.

 

Mark B 2GS 15IP 0.87 WHIP 3.00ERA vs Johan S 2GS 12IP 1.17 WHIP 4.50ERA

 

I think I'll wait for the day Santana passes Mark this year before rewarding him another Cy Young

 

Oh wait! I forgot. Santana's greatness eclipses his stats. He was nervous in SEA & he was nervous tonight. We should just ignore all his nervous innings.

 

Damn! I wish they would have sent Iggy on the SF. That was a momentum builder.

Considering we were hitting < 200 w RISP coming into tonight we had better odds of scoring on the SF than we did of someone hitting him in. The excitement of the play alone would have been worth it.

 

I wonder how many Santana worshipers there would be in this thread then. It was a missed opportunity to go up 3-0 on the great Santana. I wonder if Ozzie will say anything about it.

Edited April 11, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT

[qwerty]

Incidentally MIN (333 RISP).  Opp 280. 

 

Mark B 2GS 15IP 0.87 WHIP 3.00ERA vs Johan S 2GS 12IP 1.17 WHIP 4.50ERA

 

I think I'll wait for the day Santana passes Mark this year before rewarding him another Cy Young

 

Not gonna have to wait long.

[Leonard Zelig]

Seems silly to try to pick Cy Young or any other award like that after one week to me.

[Rowand44]

Not gonna have to wait long.

Ya, unfortunately I think you're right. I love Mark and he's an outstanding pitcher but Johan is on that level with Johnson and Schilling while Mark is on the level right below, imo.

[jackie hayes]

Seems silly to try to pick Cy Young or any other award like that after one week to me.

You're all wet. Rodrigo Lopez and Josh Beckett have officially won the 2005 Cy Young awards. Congratulations to both. I am confident they will honor the title just as Jason Stanford and Al Leiter did in 2004.

 

Also if Pat Burrell and Eric Hinske could claim their MVP trophies as soon as possible, we'd much appreciate it.

[JUGGERNAUT]

For the Santana worshipers: He's at the Jake next & then takes on KC at the dome. He won't be facing us. We won't face him again until after the break.

 

They've got a nice schedule that features plenty of Royals, Tigers, & Indians.

Mixed with Yankees, Angels, Giants, Brewers, Blue Jays, Orioles, Devil Rays,

Rangers, Dodgers, Padres, & DBacks.

 

It should be a whole lot of fun for Santana, Radke, Lohse, Mays/Mullholland, & the AAA guy.

[qwerty]

Lol... if you think santana has a good shot at repeating as cy young you are ''santana worshiper''.

[Flash Tizzle]

You're all wet.  Rodrigo Lopez and Josh Beckett have officially won the 2005 Cy Young awards.  Congratulations to both.  I am confident they will honor the title just as Jason Stanford and Al Leiter did in 2004.

 

Also if Pat Burrell and Eric Hinske could claim their MVP trophies as soon as possible, we'd much appreciate it.

 

This is a recent trend.

 

Yesterday, I witnessed Billy Beane pre-ordering his 2007 World Series trophy. It will surely look great alongside the titles won during the last seven seasons. That's for sure.

 

[JUGGERNAUT]

Ya, unfortunately I think you're right.  I love Mark and he's an outstanding pitcher but Johan is on that level with Johnson and Schilling while Mark is on the level right below, imo.

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You're pissing me off now. Schilling & Johnson have done it for years. Santana has done it for months. BIG DIFFERENCE. With a 4.50ERA in 2GS he looks more like Halladay than the elite.

[qwerty]

You're pissing me off now.  Schilling & Johnson have done it for years.  Santana has done it for months.  BIG DIFFERENCE.  With a 4.50ERA in 2GS he looks more like Halladay than the elite.

 

Sample sizes are your favorite and you piss off nearly everyone.

Edited April 11, 2005 by qwerty

[JUGGERNAUT]

Sample sizes are your favorite and you piss off nearly everyone.

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Only those who don't know s*** about baseball or those who might be mentally challenged to the degree they can't make a baseball argument so they try to bolster thier appearance with dumb arse remarks like the one above.

 

Tonight I saw a pitcher who should have been down 3-0 because he struggled early again. I read about another guy that was cruising until a third basemen who is both clueless at the plate & in the field messed up a play Uribe would have made for the 3rd out. The extra out cost that guy 4R. If that play is made then maybe that guy doesn't start walking people in the 5th. Maybe that guy goes 7IN, 0R. Baseball's a funny game in that respect. I'm sure the Twins will have their share of such plays before the season's done.

 

If your defense lets you down you're usually going to lose. That's practically a Cardinal Rule in the game.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Jugger, have you been asleep the last three years?

 

Santana is good. Very, very good.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Jugger, have you been asleep the last three years?

 

Santana is good. Very, very good.

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No one's disputing he's good. Or even very good. We're talking elite.

Clemens, Schilling, Johnson, Pedro, Hudson, Beckett, Schmidt type eliteness.

I throw Beckett in there because it did it when it really counted : post-season.

He proved to be both great & durable with the CG SO.

 

You can't reach that level until you've demonstrated greatness over years.

With all do respect to Santana 2004 was his first year with 30+ starts. It's ridiculous in my opinion to call him an elite pitcher.

 

One more thing I would like to point out. Santana's had one of the best pens behind him the past 3 yrs. If you don't think that makes a difference you're not paying attention. That's afforded the Twins the luxury of pulling him out of a game when he's running out of gas. Can the same be said of Mark or Schilling with the bloody ankle? That's why you see several strong starts by Santana that end after 5IP.

 

Now that they have back end rotation of Lohse, Mays/Mully, & a AAA guy I think it's going to be interesting to see what happens. That back end of the rotation is likely to eat much more into that pen this 1/2 than at any time over the past 3 yrs. When the pen gets over-used & tired Santana won't have the luxury of leaving at the 5th if he himself gets tired. He'll have to go a couple of innings when his fast ball is dropping off. Let's see how he fares then.

 

He avg'd a 95pc / start last yr. Buehrle avg'd a 105pc. Let's see how Santana fares with the extra work.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Lastly, Halladay vs Santana:

2002 Halladay finished 4th w a 2.63NPERA & 19W over 239IP.

2003 Halladay finished 6th w a 2.89NPERA & 22W over 266IP.

2004 Santana finished 1st w a 2.09NPERA & 20W over 228IP.

2004 Halladay went on the DL.

 

With the post-season action Santana's 2004 IP came close to Halladay's.

With Silva out Santana will be called upon to pitch longer. It's a different ball game then. Just ask Halladay.

Edited April 11, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT

[knightni]

Santana wasn't a full time starter until last year. The Twinks kept throwing him into their bullpen.

 

He was very good when they let him start in 2002/2003. But, he was the #6 guy in a very deep Min pitching staff.

 

They had:

 

Brad Radke, Kenny Rogers, Rick Reed, Joe Mays, Matt Kinney & Kyle Lohse with Eric Milton on the DL. All were thought higher of coming into the '02/'03 seasons. Santana was a young 23/24 yr old AAA guy who hadn't had much experience the the majors yet.

[Punch and Judy Garland]

Just made a five hour drive to school so here are my final thoughts. The Twins are scary in a five game series because Johan is truly amazing. Just stunning out on the hill. It seems like the count never goes 2-2 once he locks in. He's like a boa.......Konerko is on my s*** list. That was weak not getting the run in with a guy on third and less than two outs. We supposedly got rid of The Horse for not getting the job done in that spot. Konerko needs to get that run home. ........It's hard to harp on this after facing three plus-fastball pitchers in Santanamania-Rincon-Nathan but I don't think we have a guy in our lineup that can turn around a good fastball. Even if that's not entriely true-we certianly have a lot who can't. Gooch and Zoon especially looked real late on everything. I worry that will be Tadahitos undoing. That's been the problem for So Taguchi......I have to question the at-bats in the ninth. More, I should just say that I would have done it differently and not that Ozzie was really wrong. I would have pinch-run for Pierz with Harris or Podz and then I would have used Perez and Gload as my two pinch hitters, saving the otehr speedster for a guy on base. Hard to fault Ozzie here but that was my thinking at the time......Kind of a mildly depressing night but we just have to tip our hats to Santana and go get Celveland tomorrow.