White Sox @ Twins: 4/10/05 Game Thread

[Guest JimH]

Only those who don't know s*** about baseball or those who might be mentally challenged to the degree they can't make a baseball argument so they try to bolster thier appearance with dumb arse remarks like the one above. 

 

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Self righteous ... big time. Stick a pin in that ego, mathhole.

[YASNY]

Self righteous ... big time.  Stick a pin in that ego, mathhole.

 

Ain't that the truth!

[southsider2k5]

I haven't read through all of this, but to whoever said that Santana wasn't one of the top pitchers in baseball, and ranked Buehrle ahead of him, go back and watch the last 4 innings that Santana pitched. Then come back and tell me if you have ever seen a preformance like that EVER out of Mark Buehrle. Mark has had his great starts, but he has never been absolutely unhitable like Santana was. Really Santana should have had a shutout, or have given up just one run at most. Guillen's aggressive managing was what got them both of those runs.

 

I hate to lose to the Twins, but I gotta give credit where credit is due. Johan Santana is probably the best pitcher in the AL right now.

[JUGGERNAUT]

I haven't read through all of this, but to whoever said that Santana wasn't one of the top pitchers in baseball, and ranked Buehrle ahead of him, go back and watch the last 4 innings that Santana pitched.  Then come back and tell me if you have ever seen a preformance like that EVER out of Mark Buehrle.  Mark has had his great starts, but he has never been absolutely unhitable like Santana was.  Really Santana should have had a shutout, or have given up just one run at most.  Guillen's aggressive managing was what got them both of those runs.

 

I hate to lose to the Twins, but I gotta give credit where credit is due.  Johan Santana is probably the best pitcher in the AL right now.

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This is the silliest thing I've read. If the WSox send Iggy Santana is tagged for 3R, yet you want to believe he should have had a shutout. I'll tell you what let's just award Santana the Cy Young now on the basis that we are going to ignore his rough starts on account of his being nervous.

 

I guess we didn't see the same ball game or read the same pitch-by-pitch. The WSox proved to be futile in the RISP sits as they did prior to facing Santana & didn't make him pay. I'll wait & see what he does against the rest of the league before I pencil him in as the Cy Young winner.

 

As far as I'm concerned is head & shoulders above Santana. If he's pitching a do or die game he's going the whole game if he has to. He's not leaving after 5.

 

================================

 

As for Buerhle you can easily make the argument that if Crede doesn't mess up that play & Mark gets out of that inning he cruises thru the 7th. It's an entirely different ball game then. Especially if Iggy is sent for that 3rd run.

 

If you're asking me who was the better pitcher in 04, hands down it was Santana.

But if you're asking me who's been better in 05 right now it's Mark & the numbers back him up. If you're asking me who's done more their team in the past 4 yrs again it's Mark.

Edited April 11, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT

[YASNY]

This is the silliest thing I've read.  If the WSox send Iggy Santana is tagged for 3R, yet you want to believe he should have had a shutout.      I'll tell you what let's just award Santana the Cy Young now on the basis that we are going to ignore his rough starts on account of his being nervous.   

 

I guess we didn't see the same ball game or read the same pitch-by-pitch.  The WSox proved to be futile in the RISP sits as they did prior to facing Santana & didn't make him pay.  I'll wait & see what he does against the rest of the league before I pencil him in as the Cy Young winner. 

 

As far as I'm concerned is head & shoulders above Santana.  If he's pitching a do or die game he's going the whole game if he has to.  He's not leaving after 5.

 

Here's what I saw. I saw a team scratch out two runs against a very good pitcher. I also saw a very good pitcher step up and not allow any more. It's as simple as that. It's a man throwing a ball so as the man with the bat cannot hit it solidly. Pure baseball. You don't have to look at stats or situational averages. It's just baseball.

Edited April 11, 2005 by YASNY

[JUGGERNAUT]

It's pointless to argue this. The guy gave up 7H & had no less than 5 RISP, 2 out sits. The WSox failed to execute. Plain & simple. They did the same against CLE as well. That's why they came into this series hitting less than 200 in that sit.

 

I guess every hit that Santana gives up is a scratch in your mind. :lol

If Iggy is sent on that OBVIOUS SF it's a different game.

[Wedge]

Here's what I saw.  I saw a team scratch out two runs against a very good pitcher.  I also saw a very good pitcher step up and not allow any more.  It's as simple as that.  It's a man throwing a ball so as the man with the bat cannot hit it solidly.  Pure baseball.  You don't have to look at stats or situational averages.  It's just baseball.

 

I also saw a very good pitcher getting a lot of help in terms of a very friendly strike zone...

[YASNY]

It's pointless to argue this.  The guy gave up 7H & had no less than 5 RISP, 2 out sits.  The WSox failed to execute.  Plain & simple.  They did the same against CLE as well.  That's why they came into this series hitting less than 200 in that sit. 

 

I guess every hit that Santana gives up is a scratch in your mind.  :lol

If Iggy is sent on that OBVIOUS SF it's a different game.

 

You say the Sox failed to execute. I say Santana had a lot to do with the Sox failure to execute. You are placing blame on the Sox and I'm giving credit to a good pitcher. You can look at the that inning where the Sox failed to turn a DP on Iguchi's high throw, then Buehrle induced another DP to get out of the inning. Did the Twins fail to execute, or did Buehrle just do his job. I say it was Mark. Just like I say it was Santana that caused the Sox to fail to execute.

[Guest JimH]

In my opinion Iguchi would've been thrown out by 10 feet, and the Twins catcher could have easily taken a few steps back if a throw was coming in.

 

I don't think anyone is awarding Santana the Cy Young. If people here give him props, that's no reason to say it's silly. I don't like any opponent and I do not go out of my way to praise them but the Sox need a better game plan against him. So do other teams. He's a good pitcher and he will dominate at times.

 

The most disappointing aspect of last nite was the White Sox' unwillingness to make Hunter uncomfortable. Until they do that, the Sox will have problems with him. Him stealing 3rd base last nite was rubbing the Sox' nose in it, and the Sox shouldn't forget that.

 

OK ... moving on.

[BHAMBARONS]

As for Buerhle you can easily make the argument that if Crede doesn't mess up that play & Mark gets out of that inning he cruises thru the 7th.  It's an entirely different ball game then.  Especially if Iggy is sent for that 3rd run.

 

 

I am tired of hearing about one play blow a game does anyone here really believe that Mark blames him for that loss no, Mark is more upset with himself for making a horrible 3-1 pitch to Hunter than he is at Joe. I give him props for at least going for the ball.

[JUGGERNAUT]

I am tired of hearing about one play blow a game does anyone here really believe that Mark blames him for that loss no, Mark is more upset with himself for making a horrible 3-1 pitch to Hunter than he is at Joe.  I give him props for at least going for the ball.

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That's the kind of guy Mark is. He'll never blame any one else. But it doesn't change the fact that a player with a poor ZR (.684) attempted to make a play in a zone covered by a player with a great ZR (.905). Crede is not even getting to 70% of the balls for a 3B zone. Yet Uribe is over 90% for a SS zone. It's a no-brainer.

 

Believe what you will. I saw the play. Mauer is no where in position to make that play, Iggy has base stealing speed & Hunter's throw would have needed to be perfect to throw him out. No where even close to being out by 10 ft. That's ridiculous.

[YASNY]

That's the kind of guy Mark is.  He'll never blame any one else.  But it doesn't change the fact that a player with a poor ZR (.684) attempted to make a play in a zone covered by a player with a great ZR (.905).  Crede is not even getting to 70% of the balls for a 3B zone.  Yet Uribe is over 90% for a SS zone.  It's a no-brainer.

 

Believe what you will.  I saw the play.  Mauer is no where in position to make that play, Iggy has base stealing speed & Hunter's throw would have needed to be perfect to throw him out.  No where even close to being out by 10 ft.  That's ridiculous.

 

Get a clue. Learn something about baseball besides goddamn stats.

[Punch and Judy Garland]

Santana got squeezed too until around the 6th or so when he got rolling. It was an amazingly tight zone that got very loose, very quick. Buehrle got hurt pretty badly by that. Once Johan got rolling, the Glavine rule was in effect. I don't think it's a valid excuse but it'd be nice to see 9 innings of the same zone

[aboz56]

Get a clue.  Learn something about baseball besides goddamn stats.

Yea, either that or go work for Billy Beane.

 

Sometimes common sense overrides statistics, ever think of that, Mr. Juggy?

[retro1983hat]

We got beat by a great pitcher and as of right now, he's the Cy Young winner, so he, technically, is the best pitcher in the league.

 

No shame, no harm done. We won 2 of 3.

 

We need to win these series now, because late in the year, the Sox go through a stretch where we play 15 straight against the Red Sox, Yankees and Twins. We will need a lead going into September.

[Guest JimH]

Believe what you will.  I saw the play.  Mauer is no where in position to make that play, Iggy has base stealing speed & Hunter's throw would have needed to be perfect to throw him out.  No where even close to being out by 10 ft.  That's ridiculous.

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Hey Captain Stat, take a look at the box score. Mauer wasn't catching. So much for seeing the play.

 

Knock off the imflammatory adjectives as well. There's been a lot of "clueless" "ignorant" "stupid" "ridiculous" etc. coming out of your yap lately. Qwerty is right, you're doing a good job pissing people off.

 

Think about this ... Cora is one of the most aggressive 3B coaches in the league and Iguchi does have base stealer speed. I wonder why Cora didn't send him ... um, maybe because he would have been thrown out by 10 feet.

 

But ... you know better I'm sure.

[aboz56]

Hey Captain Stat, take a look at the box score.  Mauer wasn't catching.  So much for seeing the play.

But ... you know better I'm sure.

[YASNY]

Hey Captain Stat, take a look at the box score.  Mauer wasn't catching.  So much for seeing the play.

 

Knock off the imflammatory adjectives as well.  There's been a lot of "clueless" "ignorant" "stupid" "ridiculous" etc. coming out of your yap lately.  Qwerty is right, you're doing a good job pissing people off.

 

Think about this ... Cora is one of the most aggressive 3B coaches in the league and Iguchi does have base stealer speed.  I wonder why Cora didn't send him ... um, maybe because he would have been thrown out by 10 feet.

 

But ... you know better I'm sure.

 

[JUGGERNAUT]

Get a clue.  Learn something about baseball besides goddamn stats.

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You need to get a clue. You over rate Joe all the time. It's sickening to the point you resemble Cub fans. He's not very good. Not with the bad or the glove. Maybe in your mind he is but he hasn't proven a thing in either dept on the field.

 

Yeah that's why you don't like the numbers. They don't lie. They tell the truth. No

room for delusional thinking there. Do yourself a favor. Look up Joe's ZR & compare it to other 3B. Choose either LT or 2005. He's among the worst. Not the best.

[aboz56]

You need to get a clue.  You over rate Joe all the time.  It's sickening to the point you resemble Cub fans.  He's not very good.  Not with the bad or the glove.  Maybe in your mind he is but he hasn't proven a thing in either dept on the field.

 

Yeah that's why you don't like the numbers.  They don't lie.  They tell the truth.  No

room for delusional thinking there. Do yourself a favor.  Look up Joe's ZR & compare it to other 3B.  Choose either LT or 2005.  He's among the worst.  Not the best.

Who cares about zone rating?

 

The only person I've ever heard mention it is you. It's not talked about anywhere else that I've ever seen.

 

It's some worthless stat that you use to advance your ridiculous opinions that no one agrees with.

 

If you'd ever read over your posts, you sound like some statistical bot that posts stats and nothing else.

 

BTW, how did Mauer look behind the plate yesterday?

[JUGGERNAUT]

Hey Captain Stat, take a look at the box score.  Mauer wasn't catching.  So much for seeing the play.

 

Knock off the imflammatory adjectives as well.  There's been a lot of "clueless" "ignorant" "stupid" "ridiculous" etc. coming out of your yap lately.  Qwerty is right, you're doing a good job pissing people off.

 

Think about this ... Cora is one of the most aggressive 3B coaches in the league and Iguchi does have base stealer speed.  I wonder why Cora didn't send him ... um, maybe because he would have been thrown out by 10 feet.

 

But ... you know better I'm sure.

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Is that the best argument you can make? The fact that the C was not Mauer but someone else? Who gives a flying F? It doesn't change ANYTHING about the play!

That's got to be one of the dumbest F'g arguments I've ever heard.

 

No you can't send Iggy because Mauer's not the C. Get a F'g brain.

[aboz56]

Is that the best argument you can make?  The fact that the C was not Mauer but someone else?  Who gives a flying F?  It doesn't change ANYTHING about the play!

That's got to be one of the dumbest F'g arguments I've ever heard.

 

No you can't send Iggy because Mauer's not the C.  Get a F'g brain.   

I'd lay off the get a f'g brain comments.... Just a suggestion....

[Guest JimH]

Numbers don't lie, you are right about that.

 

Nor do they tell the whole story. Baseball is a game of instincts.

 

It has now gotten to a point on this board where every time you post a whole bunch of statistics analyzing every game (and sometimes every play), you have 4-5 experienced posters replying that it's not all about numbers.

 

Not to belabor this, but maybe consider toning down throwing numbers in our faces day after day?

 

Stated with respect and sincerity.

[knightni]

I also saw a very good pitcher getting a lot of help in terms of a very friendly strike zone...

I hear ya.

 

Buehrle got squeezed by the homeplate umpire from the beginning.

 

They wouldn't give him the outside corner at all.

 

Edited April 11, 2005 by knightni

[YASNY]

You need to get a clue.  You over rate Joe all the time.  It's sickening to the point you resemble Cub fans.  He's not very good.  Not with the bad or the glove.  Maybe in your mind he is but he hasn't proven a thing in either dept on the field.

 

Yeah that's why you don't like the numbers.  They don't lie.  They tell the truth.  No

room for delusional thinking there.   Do yourself a favor.  Look up Joe's ZR & compare it to other 3B.  Choose either LT or 2005.  He's among the worst.  Not the best.

 

I'm not enamored with the way Crede has played. He's been a disappointment. But the guy showed enough in the minors that I believe he's worth giving an extended opportunity to. Similar to what the Dodgers did with Beltre. However, regarding the numbers thing. You seem to think that they tell the whole story. The don't, and very often the are more misleading because baseball is a team game. If you are a 3B with a SS that doesn't go to hole very well, you cheat that way. If you have and offspeed pitcher on the mound, you cheat toward the line for right handed hitters. Your "zone" doesn't change based on game scenarios. There is something to be said for playing, watching and coaching the game for years that you will never pick up by "juggling" your damn stats.

Edited April 11, 2005 by YASNY