AddisonStSox Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 Disclaimer: This is not an attempt to spark another Kenny debate (or is it ), rather, an attempt to look at a few moves that may have gone overlooked thus far. The million dollar question: which would you rather have... Miguel Olivo and Jeremy Reed or Freddy Garcia and AJ Pierzynski Some things to consider: Reed: In 18 games with the Mariners last season -.397/.470/.466/936 (He won't keep that up over an entire season) -$316,000 -This season, he has 2 hits in 18 at bats Olivo: With both the Sox and Mariners last season -.233/.286/.439 -$400,000 -After struggling with the Mariners last season, he has 1 hit in 12 at bats this season Freddy Garcia: With both the Sox and Mariners last season -13-11 3.81/210 IP -Veteran Ace -Signed to a fantastic, relatively cheap contract at $8M -Really happy to be with Ozzie in Chicago AJ Pierzynski: With Giants -.272/.319/.410 -$2.25M -Best signal caller in the AL -Attitiude -Great with pitching staffs -Veteran that can hit To me, the choice seems quite simple. Where do you guys stand on the issue? Did Kenny pull off a serious deal here, or did he fail in some way, shape or form? I'd love to hear where we all stand on the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punch and Judy Garland Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 "Best signal caller in the AL" Welcome to soxtalk Hawk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AddisonStSox Posted April 10, 2005 Author Share Posted April 10, 2005 QUOTE(Punch and Judy Garland @ Apr 10, 2005 -> 10:12 AM) "Best signal caller in the AL" Welcome to soxtalk Hawk Disprove that statement. Pudge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevHead0881 Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 QUOTE(AddisonStSox @ Apr 10, 2005 -> 04:13 PM) Disprove that statement. Pudge? I may be wrong, but hasn't IRod been criticized in recent years for his poor game calling ability? I swear that was the knock against him when he was a free agent before last season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 A.J. was not part of that deal and there was no way at the time of the trade for KW to know he could get an upgrade at cacher. IIRC he was touting the skills of one Mr. Davis and discussing how Olivo was part of their 5-year plan. You need to compare each event singularly. The AJ signing was a very good move. The trade is also a good move so far. If Reed is hosting the RotY trophy, as some have predicted, maybe it's a draw or worse. I do know the pitching staff is looking like one of the best in my memory. If we are discussing a before and after KW, then all the trades, drafts, and signings need to be included. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 (edited) Ozzie is turning out to be one of those managers who is very blunt & doesn't care about an ex-player's feelings when he talks. For that reason alone you have to tip Williams hand in hiring him. Recently he stated no one wanted to pitch to Olivo. That tells you something right there. Reed may very well go on to be a great player but it's not like the WSox have had any trouble of late producing such players in the OF. So I definitely give the edge to the WSox in that trade. Many of you crap on Garcia. Making light of his numbers because he pitched in SEA all these years. But I don't. I think his road numbers over those years are still pretty solid. He's easily a #2 on the WSox & a #1 on many other teams. We don't know how it's going to shake down over 162 gms because of health (El Duque, Dye), but right now this is shaping up as Williams best yr as a GM. He really owes the credit to Ozzie because I don't think he makes these bold moves w/out his influence. I've said it before & I will say it again. I don't care what Uribe hits. I've seen enough in his field of play to realize he makes all the difference in the world with his D play. He's not only sure handed but he has much better range than Clayton did & he's got the best cannon I've seen play SS for the WSox. That was a great move for the WSox. Even if Miles becomes a great player. That kind of presence at SS is exactly what we needed. Iggy is proving to be a solid player who can hit & run. What more can you ask for? Pods just scored a R on a FC, WP, PB. When was the last time that happened? On the road no less? So what if Pods only hits 250A. It's undeniable how his presence on the base pads gets under the skin of pitchers & catchers. Maybe we should start keeping track of R scored & hits given up after Pods reaches. That's an intangible asset that comes from a player not just blessed with great speed but also the know-how to use it. How do you steal 70 bases while hitting 244? Getting on any way you can. Including FC. So far all the moves Kenny's made have contributed to the 4-1 start. Even the one move he didn't make (replacing Crede) finally made a contribution. We second guessed him on Perez but how important was that HR last night? It's all good so far & Kenny deserves a LOT of the credit. Along w Ozzie of course. Edited April 10, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevHead0881 Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 To answer the original post, the way I approach that scenario is who I think we are better off with right now. I don't want to think of what it would be like to not have Freddie in our rotation right now. I also know that our outfield is pretty stocked as far as talent goes. And while I think Jeremy Reed will be a great player, I'm pretty comfortable with our OF situation. As far as Olivo and AJ go, Miggy has a ton of talent, but at this moment I have little doubt that AJ is the better overall catcher (average, power, defense, game calling). Bottom line is, I think both the Sox and the Mariners should be happy about who they have in these players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 How much of our 4-1 record is attributed to Uribe's spectacular D play at SS? I think it's quite a bit. He's gotten tough outs that could have stretched innings & changed the momentum of the game. That was all KW's doing. A trade many of us didn't like. But we didn't know he could have such an impact in the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 QUOTE(KevHead0881 @ Apr 10, 2005 -> 10:19 AM) I may be wrong, but hasn't IRod been criticized in recent years for his poor game calling ability? I swear that was the knock against him when he was a free agent before last season. That's correct. When there is a runner on first he usually calls for fastballs to give himself a better chance at throwing out runners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 His best move was buying Esteban Loaiza low and selling him high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 And not just Freddy Garcia, but Garcia at $9 mil/yr for 3 years. Look around the FA market last season and try to tell me that someone would not have paid at least 4-$48 (or higher) to get Freddy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AddisonStSox Posted April 10, 2005 Author Share Posted April 10, 2005 QUOTE(Texsox @ Apr 10, 2005 -> 10:22 AM) A.J. was not part of that deal and there was no way at the time of the trade for KW to know he could get an upgrade at cacher. That is correct. However, Kenny addressed the hole that Olivo's departure created with the addition of one of the best catchers in all of baseball. He was able to acquire the single most sought after pitcher last season at the deadline and filled the hole created by acquiring him with someone much better than the incumbent. That is the basis for my arguement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winninguglyin83 Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 Williams has made a number of solid moves He got Marte, Politte, Hermanson for nothing. Did a good job on the uribe trade. Made a nice move getting Garcia and, more importantly, resigning him for three years. Got Esty for nothing and turned him into Contreras, who was the guy everybody wanted a couple of years ago. Got AJ cheap. Got Dye for one third of the price of Magglio. He HAS made some bad deals in his tenure: Wells and Fogg for Ritchie; Foulke and friends for a burned out Koch; overpaying for Carl Everett a couple of times. Not having an alternative for Crede. But I like the fact that he really does seem as if he wants to win -- and does what he can under the financial restrictions set by Reinsdorf. We won't know how good this team is for a couple of months. But the thought process behind putting it together is sensible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 KW may be looking deeper at the numbers than most of us thought. S Pods: 03 Mil 628PA, 4.01 #p/pa, 247 TB, 2SF, 8SH, 4HBP, 2IBB, 11GIDP, 1.38 G/F 04 Mil 713PA, 3.98 #p/pa, 233 TB, 1SF, 6SH, 7HBP, 2IBB, 7GIDP, 1.46 G/F Right away TB jumps at you. He avg'd 2.45 pa / base in 03, & dropped to only a 3.06 pa / base in 04. That is not a big deal when you consider he went from being a 313 hitter to a 244 hitter in that time. What's mostly overlooked is that he increased his GB/FB ratio. The more he puts it on the ground the greater his chances of beating out a throw for a hit. FC is not the same as a SH so I still don't know how many FC he had in 04, but I do think it's worth pointing out that Lee had 0 SH over those 2 yrs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Critic Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 I said this when the deal was made, and I'll say it again now: Good pitchers are harder to come by than good outfielders. Jeremy Reed is going to be very good for a long time, but the Sox needed Freddy now. Sometimes you deal the future to get what you need now, and that's what made that a good deal for the Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 QUOTE(AddisonStSox @ Apr 10, 2005 -> 08:13 AM) Disprove that statement. Pudge? I love pyrz. I've been a big fan of his since he was with the Twins. You knew he was a huge part of that club and he does all the little things. The day the Sox finally picked him up was one of the best days for this organization (as of late) and he's gonna be a big reason this club does some big things this year. If the Sox lock up Pyrz in the offseason, I'm getting a pyrz jersey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 QUOTE(winninguglyin83 @ Apr 10, 2005 -> 05:07 PM) Williams has made a number of solid moves He got Marte, Politte, Hermanson for nothing. Did a good job on the uribe trade. Made a nice move getting Garcia and, more importantly, resigning him for three years. Got Esty for nothing and turned him into Contreras, who was the guy everybody wanted a couple of years ago. Got AJ cheap. Got Dye for one third of the price of Magglio. He HAS made some bad deals in his tenure: Wells and Fogg for Ritchie; Foulke and friends for a burned out Koch; overpaying for Carl Everett a couple of times. Not having an alternative for Crede. But I like the fact that he really does seem as if he wants to win -- and does what he can under the financial restrictions set by Reinsdorf. We won't know how good this team is for a couple of months. But the thought process behind putting it together is sensible. I'll just say this -- every year, we've said he's made good moves, yet we haven't been in the playoffs since 2000. And no more b****ing about the payroll. SS2k posted that USA Today article that said we're something like 13th in payroll, that's better than MLB average, there's no excuse for not winning. $75 million + is plenty to win on. I like Williams, I think he's done a pretty good job and gets bashed a lot of times just for the sake of bashing him. But, eventually you gotta get some results, and we haven't had any yet... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/scott_podsednik.shtml Includes his ml #'s as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 Let's not forget Mr Williams had the presence of mind to get Everett again once Thomas was put on the DL. He might have over-paid for him initially but I doubt very much if we are 4-1 with Gload in place of Thomas at DH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 (edited) QUOTE(JUGGERNAUT @ Apr 10, 2005 -> 12:35 PM) How much of our 4-1 record is attributed to Uribe's spectacular D play at SS? I think it's quite a bit. He's gotten tough outs that could have stretched innings & changed the momentum of the game. That was all KW's doing. A trade many of us didn't like. But we didn't know he could have such an impact in the field. I disagree, Uribe's D has been spotty. He double-pumps quite often. I think too much of Jose V rubbed off on him. Defensively AND at the plate. Edited April 10, 2005 by knightni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 (edited) I disagree, Uribe's D has been spotty. He double-pumps quite often. I think too much of Jose V rubbed off on him. Defensively AND at the plate. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> 05 Uribe 47IP 20TC 5PO 14A 1E 2DP .950F% .882ZR 05 JVal 38IP 10TC 3PO 4A 3E 0DP .700F% .500ZR 05 Clayton 40IP 22TC 6PO 15A 1E 4DP .955F% .833ZR His ZR is head & shoulders above Val's & better than Clayton's. Glove wise he's doing just as good a job as Clayton. He's a big part of the wins. FYI: For those who don't know ZR represents the % of balls fielded by the player in the zone for that position. If you were to define a maximum zone for SS Uribe has covered all but 12% of that zone. Clayton has covered all but 17% of that zone & Val is only covering 50% of that zone. It makes a big difference to a pitcher. Edited April 10, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 QUOTE(JUGGERNAUT @ Apr 10, 2005 -> 04:23 PM) 05 Uribe 47IP 20TC 5PO 14A 1E 2DP .950F% 3.64RF .882ZR 05 JVal 38IP 10TC 3PO 4A 3E 0DP .700F% 1.66RF .500ZR 05 Clayton 40IP 22TC 6PO 15A 1E 4DP .955F% 4.73RF .833ZR His ZR is head & shoulders above Val's & better than Clayton's. Glove wise he's doing just as good a job as Clayton. He's a big part of the wins. He plays third of course it would be lower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 I have seen quite a few times in ST and early season where he double-pumps and makes the plays close at 1b, or the runner beats the throw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHarris1 Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 Uribes defense to start the season has been great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 05 Uribe 47IP 20TC 5PO 14A 1E 2DP .950F% .882ZR 05 JVal 38IP 10TC 3PO 4A 3E 0DP .700F% .500ZR 05 Clayton 40IP 22TC 6PO 15A 1E 4DP .955F% .833ZR I'm pretty sure SS has a bigger zone to cover than 3B. His 882 ZR means he 's covered all but 12% of the maximum zone defined for a SS. Let's look at how it compares to the marquee names: Cabrera .864ZR Renteria .733ZR Jeter .857ZR Nomar .909ZR Tejada .667ZR Uribe .882ZR Only Nomar is getting to more balls than Uribe in that list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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