Buehrle 1-0 Crede 0-1

[YASNY]

Those remarks blaming Crede for that play were some of the most ridiculous statements from so called knowledgable baseball fans that I've ever seen.

[Chisoxfn]

Those remarks blaming Crede for that play were some of the most ridiculous statements from so called knowledgable baseball fans that I've ever seen.

I tend to agree with you. I understand people being frustrated with him, but christ, the guy flat out plays hard and did all he could defensively trying not to give up on the ball. It was quite obvious by the way he was trying to keep the ball in front of him that he had no clue Uribe even had a shot at the play.

 

Crede did it as fundemantal as possible (although he did lose his balance) and even had a double in the game and hit the ball hard earlier in the series. If you want to be frustrated with Joe, fine, he obviously hasn't developed into the player many thought he would of (at least not yet) but for cripes sake its amazing how this year he's all of a sudden a turd defensively. A guy thats talked about in the upper echelon defensively after just 1 full season.

 

6 games don't make a season...case closed. If a month from now he's hitting in the low .200's its time to make a change, but give him that. This is a guy that absolutely raked the ball in the minors and has had periods at the major league level where he's destroyed the ball. Do people need ot take a look at what Beltre did in LA up until last year to realize sometimes you shouldn't give up on a guy?

 

I don't even know why I'm talking about something like this 6 games into the season though. Crede made adjustments to his swing, he started to break out late in spring, and has struggled early in the season, but he deserves at least a shot to get through them and Ozzie needs to stick with him now because frankly Crede isn't going to be what costs the Sox the playoffs, at least not a month of Crede (even if he was playing awful offensively).

 

And frankly I'm not willing to say Ozuna is better than Crede nor am I willing to even mention Fields name until late this year (even then I wouldn't be very excited) so it would mean Kenny would have to shop. Before giving up valuable prospects (that could go into other areas) I'd like to think the Sox truly gave enough time to evaluate the adjustments Joe made. Plus, not many teams are willing to deal a quality 3rd baseman this early in the year so the pickings would be slim.

[IlliniKrush]

Crede may have made a 'bad' play, but it didn't cost the Sox the game. Santana just beat the hell out of us, plain and simple. That was the story of the game to me.

 

As far as the Crede play goes, unless Uribe was calling him off, not much you can blame him for there. If he knows he's there/hears Uribe calling, he needs to let that ball go because Lecroy is very, very slow/injured.

 

Can't really excuse Mark for going 3-0 to Hunter and having to throw him cookies to try to get him out. Game. Set. Match. That's all Santana needed.

 

As far as Joe goes, personally i'm giving him til June X to make a call on him. Making conclusions after 6 games is just idiotic. It's a new season, so i give everyone the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise.

[southsider2k5]

Guarantee no one on the plane to Cleveland is going to pointing fingers at Joe or Mark. Not ONE single player.

 

Instinct tells you to get the ball at any means possible. As an infielder your job is to not let that ball get past you, no matter what the situation is. What was Joe trying to do? Stop the ball.

 

The only guy that they need to point fingers at for losing this game was the guy on the pitching mound for the Twins.

[YASNY]

The only guy that they need to point fingers at for losing this game was the guy on the pitching mound for the Twins.

 

As good as Santana was, the loss was a team effort.

[aboz56]

I guess all of the ignorance has left the thread for now after everyone has had the chance to realize that one loss should never be shouldered on one guy.

 

Personally, it's okay to criticize guys on this team, but knee jerk reactions after one play are not necessary. In fact, if it happens all year, it's going to be a long one.

[YASNY]

I guess all of the ignorance has left the thread for now after everyone has had the chance to realize that one loss should never be shouldered on one guy.

 

Personally, it's okay to criticize guys on this team, but knee jerk reactions after one play are not necessary.  In fact, if it happens all year, it's going to be a long one.

 

Ignorance certainly reared it's ugly head. Though now it's playing ostrich.

[Wise Master Buehrle]

 

Ignorance = Owned

[JUGGERNAUT]

I didn't see the play. I was hoping to see it on ESPNN but they didn't show it.

What I would say from experience is that you are taught early on about zones. Where the 3B zone ends & where the SS zone begins.

 

Typically the primary concern for 1B & 3B is the line. That's because there is no one to defend the line past them. The RF & LF have to move quickly from more centered positions to make a play. That means the range of these guys is limited to what it takes for them to make a play on the line.

If you assume a 7ft span then you are looking at about 15ft from the bag.

That's the range of maximum range for both positions.

 

Everything else falls in the SS & 2B zones. These are typically the fastest reaction guys on the team. Again here's where the numbers help define the play.

 

Crede has a lifetime ZR of .762 & a poor ZR of .684 for 2005.

Uribe has a lifetime ZR of .848 & a great ZR of .905 for 2005.

 

Let me explain what that means again. It means that Crede hasn't been able to get to about 25% of the balls defined for a 3B zone in his career.

It means he's failed to make plays on about 32% of the balls defined in his zone this year. Uribe on the other hand is getting to all but 10% of the balls hit in a SS zone. That ranks amongst the league leaders.

 

If I were the manager I would have pointed this out & the start of the season & told Crede not to attempt to make a play towards Uribe unless he's 100% confident he can get the out. Uribe is more capable of making the tough plays.

[T R U]

You can blame Crede for keeping the inning going if you must, but even so theres no guarantee Juan would have been able to make the play..

 

You cant blame Crede for Mark getting the count to 3 - 1 and grooving a FB right down the middle.. that wasnt Credes fault..

 

We still won the series, who cares.. off the Cleveland now

[YASNY]

Zones? Ok. A third baseman is taught to get to anything he can get to, including cutting off the shortstop, because he headed toward first base and the shortstop is headed away. So that's a third baseman's zone. If you can get to it, it's your ball.

Edited April 11, 2005 by YASNY

[southsider2k5]

You can blame Crede for keeping the inning going if you must, but even so theres no guarantee Juan would have been able to make the play..

 

You cant blame Crede for Mark getting the count to 3 - 1 and grooving a FB right down the middle.. that wasnt Credes fault..

 

We still won the series, who cares.. off the Cleveland now

 

Uribe would not have been able to make that play. There is no way he can get to that ball, get up, and still have enough time and/or arm to get the out at 1B. Crede was doing exactly what he should have done, and that was try to keep the ball on the IF. 3rd basemen are taught to take any play they can, especially ones where momentum is taking them towards 1B, and SSs away from there. It just makes sense that the player moving towards 3rd would be the first priority to try to make that play, even if he just knocked the ball down in the IF.

[T R U]

Uribe would not have been able to make that play.  There is no way he can get to that ball, get up, and still have enough time and/or arm to get the out at 1B.  Crede was doing exactly what he should have done, and that was try to keep the ball on the IF.  3rd basemen are taught to take any play they can, especially ones where momentum is taking them towards 1B, and SSs away from there.  It just makes sense that the player moving towards 3rd would be the first priority to try to make that play, even if he just knocked the ball down in the IF.

 

I know, but everyone was saying that we lost because of Crede.. when there was still no guarantee the play would have been made.. a few even blamed him for the HR which was unreal

[aboz56]

Hopefully we win today so we can stop talking about this play which really wasn't anyone's fault.

 

He went after the ball, had he not went after it, you'd all be b****ing that he didn't make enough effort to get it.

 

I actually feel for Crede at this point, guy has no confidence and if he keeps playing this way with the bat, he's going to be booed at home.

[YASNY]

I cannot believe how many so called knowledgable baseball fans do not understand the basic concepts of baseball that are taught from little league on. I am totally dumbfounded by some of the statements that have been made referring to that Crede play. Un-f***ing-believable.

Edited April 11, 2005 by YASNY

[BHAMBARONS]

I cannot believe how many so called knowledgable baseball fans do not understand the basic concepts of baseball that are taught from little league on.  I am totally dumbfounded by some of the statements that have been made referring to that Crede play. Un-f***ing-believable.

 

 

Finally someone who understands, I know from Day one I was told to KEEP THAT BALL on the IF.

[southsider2k5]

I know, but everyone was saying that we lost because of Crede.. when there was still no guarantee the play would have been made.. a few even blamed him for the HR which was unreal

 

The sad thing is that no one is mentioning the excellent defensive play that should have resulted in the CS at 3B of Torii Hunter by covering his line to the base. Hunter never got his foot on the bag, (as Joe had it perfectly blocked) and Crede had the tag down, but the ump just flat out missed it.

[aboz56]

The sad thing is that no one is mentioning the excellent defensive play that should have resulted in the CS at 3B of Torii Hunter by covering his line to the base.  Hunter never got his foot on the bag, (as Joe had it perfectly blocked) and Crede had the tag down, but the ump just flat out missed it.

It was certainly a gutsy play sticking his leg there, he could've been spiked very easily.

 

But hell, just forget about that, f***ING CREDE LOST THE GAME FOR US!

 

 

I'll be rooting for Joe and when he gets off, all of the haters better stay off of the bandwagon.

[IlliniKrush]

Uribe would not have been able to make that play.  There is no way he can get to that ball, get up, and still have enough time and/or arm to get the out at 1B.  Crede was doing exactly what he should have done, and that was try to keep the ball on the IF.  3rd basemen are taught to take any play they can, especially ones where momentum is taking them towards 1B, and SSs away from there.  It just makes sense that the player moving towards 3rd would be the first priority to try to make that play, even if he just knocked the ball down in the IF.

 

He may have been able to. No, i'm not saying Crede should have let the ball go, third baseman are supposed to get everything they can because their momentum is moving them towards first for a throw, compared to a SS at least.

 

Outside of that, Uribe may have been able to throw him out (let's say crede dives and misses or something). Remember..it was Lecroy running, who is slower than a snail stuck in mud. It might have been pretty damn close, because Lecroy just can't run at all.

[Chisoxfn]

The sad thing is that no one is mentioning the excellent defensive play that should have resulted in the CS at 3B of Torii Hunter by covering his line to the base.  Hunter never got his foot on the bag, (as Joe had it perfectly blocked) and Crede had the tag down, but the ump just flat out missed it.

That was an awesome play. He also made a nice play on a slow grounder fielded it and made the throw and Joe Morgan was showing the replay talking about how thats exactly how its supposed to be done.

[T R U]

The sad thing is that no one is mentioning the excellent defensive play that should have resulted in the CS at 3B of Torii Hunter by covering his line to the base.  Hunter never got his foot on the bag, (as Joe had it perfectly blocked) and Crede had the tag down, but the ump just flat out missed it.

 

Everyone in the chat last night realized that, no one has said it in here though.. That was a very good play, and yeah he was out

[santo=dorf]

Let's see, Crede trips over his own feet and deflects the ball with his bare hand because "he's supposed to keep the ball in the infield."

 

This doesn't make sense to me because of the situation (runners on first and third.) Suppose Crede lets the ball go into left field do you actually think that the runner on first wouldn't be on second? I really don't see any difference in the situation if Crede lets that ball go into left field even if he didn't trip over his own feet.

Edited April 11, 2005 by santo=dorf

[elrockinMT]

He was thinking "Stop the ball and keep it in the infield" which is EXACTLY what he should be thinking.

 

You win as a team and you lose as a team. Joe did some good stuff in that Sunday night game too. he adjusted well to Santana's change up, which most of the team couldn't do, and doubled off him and he made a fine defensive play. I think the one he missed was a loss of footing and as YASNY said he did what he could and should do by trying the knock it down. Plus the ump blew the call on Joe blocking Hunter off third base and the ESPN crew said the same thing. Joe Crede is not the problem and wasn't during this game.

Edited April 11, 2005 by elrockinMT