Ozzie vs. Frank, round one?

[Soxfest]

SOS diff day

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(Al Lopez's Ghost @ Apr 18, 2005 -> 11:49 AM)

THis is from Monday's Tribune:

 

They may be ex-teammates, but Ozzie Guillen sent a reminder to Frank Thomas on Sunday that he's the boss.

Guillen, unprompted, delivered a very public message to Thomas - who returned to Chicago on Saturday to rehab from a fractured ankle - that this Sox team was built for unity and on attitude.

"It is good to have him here, because now he can see a winning attitude, because he was part of the bad attitude [of the past]" Guillen said. "Frank was a big part of the bad attitude."

"Now he can see the guys, how we handle stuff, why we're not whining every day, why we're hitting today after a day game. Everybody is happy and I want Frank to be part of it."

Guillen was asked to explain what "bad attitude" meant.

"You heard me" Guillen said. "Because he was here for 20 years and he was part of the bad attitude. Why? Because he was their leader."

But didn't Thomas change, become more humble and blend in more last year than he had in the past?

"He got better last year" Guillen said. "His attitude [before that] was horrible here. Everybody's was. When you're part of the team, that means you too. Because when something goes wrong, it's 25 guys, not just one or two. When stuffs not going good, guys start pointing fingers. That's everybody's fault. When we're not going good, it's my fault. Blame it on Ozzie. I'm not blaming my players. But, yeah, Frank was part of the bad attitude here. He was here for 20 years."

Guillen also said "[Others] were part of the bad atitude too. Konerko, Buehrle, Garland, Crede...who else was here? There's not too many guys left, and that's why because of the attitude. All those guys because when you see something wrong, say it. Talk, don't go hide it like a [child]. When you don't like something in the clubhouse, say something. If you want to get together and stay together, communication is the best thing in life... The attitude was horrible. Now that the attitude is good, we might finish in last place, but we'll finish in last place with a good team."

Guillen also wanted everyone to know who now fills out the lineup card after Thomas said Saturday that DH Carl Everett could play the outfield when Thomas returns. "Frank doesn't make the lineup. When Frank gets of the DL, I will make the lineup and who is going t play the outfield and who is going to DH. Frank has to be 100% to come back. [i told him] I don't want to be a bad man, but we're trying to do something here. I'm not going to rehab you when we're trying to win. We got it clear: When Frank is back,we're going to shuffle the lineup and figure out how we're going to play everyday and the pitching matchups and give guys days off. That's my job. That's the thing. I'm going to make the decision."

And what will the decision be?

"Let me sleep on it for a couple of weeks, because that's going to be a tough decision, no doubt about it" Guillen said.

This ran under a big bold headline "GUILLEN GETS FRANK" and halfway through the article I thought that the Tribune was blowing it up from Ozzie talking about everybode to Ozzie picking on Frank, but after reading it all, I think Ozzie just got pissed that Frank, probably answering a question directly, said, gee, Everett can play left while I DH. So my take is Ozzie is marking his territory.

 

Any thoughts?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I would have to completely agree with you on this. It is being blown way out of proportion. He not only mentioned Frank, but Garland, Beuhrle, Konerko, and etc. I don't see how the hell Everett can play left when Frank comes back because we need Pods at the top of this lineup. He is a big part of the revision of this team. If you take speed and defense out of the lineup and replace it with Carl's bad defense and power then we are right back to where we were last year. I think Frank was wrong to make lineup predictions, but I think that too was being taken out of context and blown up. By saying they can put Carl in LF and sit Pods while he DHs shows a selfish attitude to me and not a team attitude at all. A team player would have said that "I don't care where I bat, play, or how they fit me into the lineup as long as we are winning. These are decisions for the manager of this team to make and I just want to win." However, like I stated, I believe this too was taken out of context.

Edited April 18, 2005 by southsideirish

[mreye]

Nobody has brought this up yet, so I will.

 

What started this was Frank saying he expects to play every day. On it's face, that sounds like he wants to make the lineup card. I think he just means that he'll be in such great shape that Ozzie won't have any choice than to play him everyday. The reporter followed up with: "What will Everett do?"

[Steff]

Nobody has brought this up yet, so I will.

 

What started this was Frank saying he expects to play every day. On it's face, that sounds like he wants to make the lineup card. I think he just means that he'll be in such great shape that Ozzie won't have any choice than to play him everyday. The reporter followed up with: "What will Everett do?"

 

 

Then Ozzie should have just addressed that and not brought up year old crap.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(Steff @ Apr 18, 2005 -> 03:52 PM)

Then Ozzie should have just addressed that and not brought up year old crap.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Steff, I am sure Ozzie is not told exactly everything that happened. I am sure the reporter was trying to start s*** and he said something that ticked Ozzie off. Being selfish will always tick Ozzie off. If the reporter explained to Ozzie the way it was written and explained to us, then I can see why Ozzie would get upset. I also can't see why Frank can't just say it is not his decision to make. That he will play when and wherever he is asked to. I know you love Frank. I love Frank too. I jst think they are both wrong for what they said and I think both situations are being blown out of proportion bythe press. I understand your point of view, but I think both are at fault here. No one is more at fault than the other. Wouldn't you agree?

[Steff]

Steff, I am sure Ozzie is not told exactly everything that happened. I am sure the reporter was trying to start s*** and he said something that ticked Ozzie off. Being selfish will always tick Ozzie off. If the reporter explained to Ozzie the way it was written and explained to us, then I can see why Ozzie would get upset. I also can't see why Frank can't just say it is not his decision to make. That he will play when and wherever he is asked to. I know you love Frank. I love Frank too. I jst think they are both wrong for what they said and I think both situations are being blown out of proportion bythe press. I understand your point of view, but I think both are at fault here. No one is more at fault than the other. Wouldn't you agree?

 

 

No.. I don't think last year has anything to do with this year.. and I don't think the public needs to know the details of things that go on in the clubhouse.. and I don't think we need to know who's an ass and who isn't.

 

If this was just about Frank's comment/suggestion on where to play Carl when he returns I have no issue. My issue is not with Ozzie saying "I make the line-up" and thumping his chest.. I have a problem with him offering information about crap that was last year.

 

JMO...

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(Steff @ Apr 18, 2005 -> 04:06 PM)

No.. I don't think last year has anything to do with this year.. and I don't think the public needs to know the details of things that go on in the clubhouse.. and I don't think we need to know who's an ass and who isn't.

 

If this was just about Frank's comment/suggestion on where to play Carl when he returns I have no issue. My issue is not with Ozzie saying "I make the line-up" and thumping his chest.. I have a problem with him offering information about crap that was last year.

 

JMO...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

WOW! OK. I see Frank's attitude with him saying that Carl can play leftfield as selfish and pontentially disruptive to the clubhouse and team chemistry. By saying that it reminds Ozzie of years past of a team attitude Frank was a part of. I think it is very relevant to bring up. He should not have said it to the public, but Frank shouldn't have either. Both were wrong and that is how we get this situation.

Edited April 18, 2005 by southsideirish

[jackie hayes]

Steff, I am sure Ozzie is not told exactly everything that happened. I am sure the reporter was trying to start s*** and he said something that ticked Ozzie off. Being selfish will always tick Ozzie off. If the reporter explained to Ozzie the way it was written and explained to us, then I can see why Ozzie would get upset. I also can't see why Frank can't just say it is not his decision to make. That he will play when and wherever he is asked to. I know you love Frank. I love Frank too. I jst think they are both wrong for what they said and I think both situations are being blown out of proportion bythe press. I understand your point of view, but I think both are at fault here. No one is more at fault than the other. Wouldn't you agree?

The article states that he wasn't replying to any question, it was "unprompted".

 

Ozzie is full of s***. He talks ENDLESSLY about how everyone's attitude sucks but his. He's like a girl in junior high who calls every other girl a b****. There's no reason, NONE, to call out Frank like this. If he wants to work him up, do it in private (one thing that Manuel deserved a lot of credit for). Ozzie talks all this bs about how he's accountable, but then he throws responsibility onto someone else. Why'd we lose last year? Bad attitude, Carlos Lee. Why didn't we respond to the Hunter-Burke collision? (In the postgame, Ozzie said HE would decide whether or not he wanted to respond.) Carlos Lee's fault, he didn't slide. Sanctimonious crap.

 

"When stuff's not going good, guys start pointing fingers." When stuff is going good, it takes Ozzie to do that.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Apr 18, 2005 -> 04:12 PM)

The article states that he wasn't replying to any question, it was "unprompted".

 

Ozzie is full of s***.  He talks ENDLESSLY about how everyone's attitude sucks but his.  He's like a girl in junior high who calls every other girl a b****.  There's no reason, NONE, to call out Frank like this.  If he wants to work him up, do it in private (one thing that Manuel deserved a lot of credit for).  Ozzie talks all this bs about how he's accountable, but then he throws responsibility onto someone else.  Why'd we lose last year?  Bad attitude, Carlos Lee.  Why didn't we respond to the Hunter-Burke collision?  (In the postgame, Ozzie said HE would decide whether or not he wanted to respond.)  Carlos Lee's fault, he didn't slide.  Sanctimonious crap.

 

"When stuff's not going good, guys start pointing fingers."  When stuff is going good, it takes Ozzie to do that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Exactly. That is what the article says. Ozzie is just going to step up and say this without being asked anything? Do you really believe that? From the Tribune?

 

You think what Frank said is just fine? He don't see it full of selfishness? I clearly see it.

 

He seems like you have a lot of animosity towards Ozzie. I don't think this situation has pushed you in that direction. Do you not think he is a good manager?

 

I am not defending either one of them. I am just stating that neither are more at fault than the other. The both of them either need to learn how to communicate with the press or shut their traps.

Edited April 18, 2005 by southsideirish

[EvilJester99]

I think this boils down to Ozzie just likes to hear himself talk most times and is rattling on about anything he can... in which he should have left this behind closed doors regardless. If he has or had a problem with Frank or anyone else for that matter it shouldn't be settled in the media for ANY reason...

[southsider2k5]

Says Kenny...

 

Everytime there is a situation like this, it seems like Kenny is the one who gets proven right.

[Texsox]

If this is a ploy to make Franks leaving at years end hurt less then I'm not buying it. They got me to not care about Maggs, Carlos, and others, but they are NOT doing that to Big Frank.

 

April 17 is this a new early season record for discussing Frank's attitude?

 

March of 2004, Frank volunteered to move to #4 in the order, to make room for Maggs.

 

Attitude score 100

 

Now, we hear this again. I have not seen anything from Frank since opening day 2004 that wasn't good. My first thought is Oz wants to stamp his brand on this team so badly, he's willing to trash Frank. I have seen new managers in business try and move out the old employees and bring in "their people". Most of the time I sense uncertainty and a lack of confidence in the new manager's ability to take charge and lead. They see the existing employees as threats. Maybe we are seeing Ozzie's insecurities in all this. Frank played with Oz. Can you imagine Oz delivering a "you have to be able to lay down a sac bunt" and Frank is over there rolling his eyes and mentioning hey Oz, remember when you went 0-4 against Cleveland and twice failed to lay one down? It is not that easy. Even if Frank doesn't say it, Ozzie knows that Frank knows, how Oz really played.

[Punch and Judy Garland]

I wish Ozzie would shut the f*** up. I don't need to see Frank wave the pom-poms-just hit. What did Frank not do that Ozzie wante dhim to do? Bunt? Steal bases?

[Steff]

WOW! OK. I see Frank's attitude with him saying that Carl can play leftfield as selfish and pontentially disruptive to the clubhouse and team chemistry. By saying that it reminds Ozzie of years past of a team attitude Frank was a part of. I think it is very relevant to bring up. He should not have said it to the public, but Frank shouldn't have either. Both were wrong and that is how we get this situation.

 

 

LMAO..

 

Reporter: "Hey Frank.. think you'll DH full time when you come back?"

Frank: "Sure"

Reporter: "What should Carl do?"

Frank: "Play the outfield...."

 

 

Guess he could have said "send his ass packing".

 

Selfish, IMO, is the last thing it was. It was a matter of fact opinion..

[jackie hayes]

Exactly. That is what the article says. Ozzie is just going to step up and say this without being asked anything? Do you really believe that? From the Tribune?

 

You think what Frank said is just fine? He don't see it full of selfishness? I clearly see it.

 

He seems like you have a lot of animosity towards Ozzie. I don't think this situation has pushed you in that direction. Do you not think he is a good manager?

 

I am not defending either one of them. I am just stating that neither are more at fault than the other. The both of them either need to learn how to communicate with the press or shut their traps.

Hey, maybe the Tribune just made up the quotes too.

 

Let's see what Frank's been saying:

Guys are playing great team baseball, and that's what it's all about.  I've got to accept my role, but I know what I've got to do when I get back. I know what I'm capable of doing.

 

We have interchangeable parts. There are right-handers that give me fits, and on those days, I'll be on the bench. But once I get healthy and come out and do my thing, things will take care of themselves

Yeah, he's really being an ass.

 

Frank didn't say 'I better be hitting every day, or else' -- he even said that he would have to sit once in a while. He was just saying how the lineup might look when he was in it. What's the problem with that? Should he have said, 'Gee, I dunno, maybe Oz'll want to play me in center, you'll have to ask him'? We all know that Frank is DHing when he's in the lineup, what's the big problem. Hell, he even gave a long spiel about "team baseball" and "interchangeable parts", Ozzie should have felt his ego was stroked enough. And maybe, just maybe should not have tried to embarass one of his best hitters in the press.

[Steff]

Everytime there is a situation like this, it seems like Kenny is the one who gets proven right.

 

 

 

I don't recall Frank confirming that he didn't call Kenny and Ozzie back.. as a matter of fact I specifically recall Ozzie saying he had talked to Frank several times when Kenny claimed Frank wasn't returning calls..

[Punch and Judy Garland]

I am simply amazed that some people think Frank is a part-time player. He is our best hitter and if you don't know that you haven't been watching since last June. I appreciate that soxtalk has been very supportive of Frank lately but they were very behind Lee too and then the spin came. I fear that if Ozzie/KW drive Frank out, opinion around here will do its usual 180. Those guys better be careful though because if they've met JR they should know not to f*** with Frank or Harold Baines.

[Steff]

Now, we hear this again. I have not seen anything from Frank since opening day 2004 that wasn't good. My first thought is Oz wants to stamp his brand on this team so badly, he's willing to trash Frank. I have seen new managers in business try and move out the old employees and bring in "their people". Most of the time I sense uncertainty and a lack of confidence in the new manager's ability to take charge and lead. They see the existing employees as threats. Maybe we are seeing Ozzie's insecurities in all this. Frank played with Oz. Can you imagine Oz delivering a "you have to be able to lay down a sac bunt" and Frank is over there rolling his eyes and mentioning hey Oz, remember when you went 0-4 against Cleveland and twice failed to lay one down? It is not that easy. Even if Frank doesn't say it, Ozzie knows that Frank knows, how Oz really played.

 

 

[jackie hayes]

Everytime there is a situation like this, it seems like Kenny is the one who gets proven right.

Ozzie even says that he's talked to Frank (the Herald article quotes him saying "I talked to him. I said listen, 'I'm not being a bad man...'"), so communication doesn't seem to be a problem.

[fathom]

I'm pretty sure the Sox hold an option on Ozzie's contract after this season, and if the Sox don't make the playoffs, I really hope that they don't bring his ass back. He' shown me nothing in terms of in-game managing, and he still hasn't learned to shut his f***ing mouth. He's one of the worst managers I've ever seen at having a feel for when he should take pitchers out. He consistently waits one batter too long to take the starter out.

[Dick Allen]

Previously, Ozzie said Frank's attitude last year was great. Now all of a sudden it is horrible. If the team attitude was bad last year, why didn't the great Ozzie fix it? Ozzieball, its an attitude, obviously was a BS slogan. Ozzie had no business discussing this in public. He went too far. Frank is a hall of famer, when he was asked what he thought the situation would be when he got back he obviously figures he's going to get the majority of time, just like everyone here did. That's not being selfish, and not a team player. Please. Frank has done and said some questionable things during his career, but this attack is unprovoked. Hopefully Ozzie will get called into the principal's office today, and things can be worked out before there is any damage.

[3E8]

About this affecting the team negatively; if the team is really as close-knit as advertised, I don't see this altering their performance level.

[LosMediasBlancas]

Just read another Ozzie gem, he says Crede 'doesn't show up sometimes, that's not what you want'. To me that means no effort, but I guess because of the language barrier, he probably meant 'the results aren't what we'd like to see from him so far'.

This guy is becoming a P.R. blooper reel.

[Steff]

About this affecting the team negatively; if the team is really as close-knit as advertised, I don't see this altering their performance level.

 

 

 

I see it effecting their respect for their manager level. Every time Ozzie opens his mouth about clubhouse matters is just one more reason not to trust him... anything you might say might make it to the papers. Not good, IMO.

I think this team will win in spite of Ozzie. I honestly believe all of their hearts are 150% dedicated to a 100 win season and more than just the division title..

 

 

 

Crap.. I kinda just made a prediction..

[Texsox]

Ozzie sure does know how to welcome someone.

 

Wake up Oz. You lost two .300 hitters from last year's opening roster and you want to tick off Frank? If this is some minor league psychology ploy, leave the mind games to a professional.

 

Could Ozzie be the baseball version of Mike Keenan, without the success?

 

OMG! I'm defending Frank's attitude! I would not have been doing that two or three years ago.

 

I've always believed, if Frank's leadership was 1/2 as good as his playing ability, the Sox would have seen more post season play and gone deeper at least one year. But starting last year for certain, he was demonstrated at least the ability to not distract.