Gldfinger5 Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 I was listening to Lawrence Holmes last night and he was discussing the differences between the Cubs and White Sox in terms of media attention, fan base, and just overall popularity. One of the main discussions is why the Cubs are more popular and if the city of Chicago was ever a White Sox town. Now I'm only 25 so I can't go back to far, but I thought in the early 90's when the jerseys changed and we were one of the best teams in baseball that it was more of a Sox town than Cubs town. Do you guys agree or do you know of a time when you could be talking baseball with someone from outside Chicago and they'd just assume you were a Sox fan rather than a Cubs fan?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamTell Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 I'd say that's probably as close as it's been in years for Chicago being a Sox town. But it still probably was a Cubs town then. I wouldn't know because I would've been like 7 and since I don't live in Chicago I didn't really know who was more popular between the Cubs and White Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBigHurt35 Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 It may have been a Sox town between the '50s and early '80s, but certainly became a Cubs town when Harry went to WGN. IMO, it's been that way ever since (the early/mid '90s notwithstanding). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 It was probably a "Sox town" between the 1950s-1960s. Barely before the '59 WS appearance, but definitely before the Cubs' '69 collapse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mplssoxfan Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 QUOTE(Gldfinger5 @ Apr 18, 2005 -> 12:55 PM) I was listening to Lawrence Holmes last night and he was discussing the differences between the Cubs and White Sox in terms of media attention, fan base, and just overall popularity. One of the main discussions is why the Cubs are more popular and if the city of Chicago was ever a White Sox town. Now I'm only 25 so I can't go back to far, but I thought in the early 90's when the jerseys changed and we were one of the best teams in baseball that it was more of a Sox town than Cubs town. Do you guys agree or do you know of a time when you could be talking baseball with someone from outside Chicago and they'd just assume you were a Sox fan rather than a Cubs fan?? I'm 41 years old, I've lived out of town since I finished college, and I can tell you that, in my experience that that time was never. If I'm at a Vikes-Bears game in a Bears jersey, people will say, trying to be nice, "How 'bout those Cubbies!" When I snarl back at them, they don't understand. It might have been different before WGN brought 140+ Cubs games a year throughout the nation on cable. I don't know. But even back then, the Cubs had a stronger radio presence in the Midwest, thanks to the strong WGN signal. Suffice it to say, that to most casual baseball fans, and many who consider themselves knowledgeable, Chicago=Cubs. Sad but true, but who wants to consort with those bandwagon jumping know-nothings anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider17 Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 (edited) The Sox had the city in the palm of there hand in 1983 - new ownership, marquee names, playoff appearance. But then 1984 (the accursed) happened, and coupled with Harry Carey and a rapidly gentrifying neighborhood, the cub phenomena took off. Previous to that (from what I can recall - I'm 40) the team with the better record usually was the better draw. Though the Sox drew well (even outdrew the cubs) in the early 90's, the media, especially national, focused on the cubs and their "fun at the ballpark" atmosphere even though they weren't very good. Alot of disinterest towards the Sox was the fault of bad ownership decisions (taking Sox games off of WGNTV, going to SportsVision, isolating the new stadium with parking lots, the White Flag trade and the grandaddy of them all - the '94 strike engineered by JR). Even the 1919 incident had to have an impact. Edit: Just read the above post. The WGNTV cable exposure also had to have a huge influence, though more nationally than in Chicago. Edited April 18, 2005 by southsider17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tannerfan Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 When I was a kid in the late 60's the Sox were pretty even with the Cubs in popularity. The Sox were good back then and were in a very exciting 4 team pennant race in '67 which the Red Sox won. Then the Sox went into the tank, and The Cubs took off. I remember my dad being filled with glee when the Cubs blew their 9 game lead to the Mets in '69. The White Sox have made so many marketing mistakes over the years it's a wonder they have survived at all. First they switched from WGN to WFLD ch 32 in "68. You cable generation kids probably never had to mess with rabbit ear antennas, but there were many nights that you just could not get decent reception. It was hell back then let me tell ya. Then they fired Harry Carey (a big mistake) and came up with Sportsvision, an idea ahead of its time. In both these cases it was if The Sox didn't think TV popularity mattered. Meanwhile several generations of TV watching kids were only exposed to The Cubs. The list goes on and on but I'm sure you get the idea. I actually think the trend could be reversed. I'm not sure the Cubs can go back to their lovable losers pose without alienating a fair amount of their fan base. It's interesting that some Cub players are getting booed these days. Plus if The White Sox could field a truly competitive team for several years in a row, win some division titles, and upset a power like the Yankees or Red Sox the fan base would swell and all would be right with the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my5thbench Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 I recall in the early 60's crowds of fewer than 1,000 fans at wrigley for some weekday games...it seems the Sox with far better teams throughout most of the 50's & 60's were at least on an even keel with the cub....the killer was when Harry & Piersall moved from the South side to the north side...there act was very popular at old Comiskey, remember the Falstaff cow in the 70's? & Harry hanging out of the booth, beer in hand, or broad- casting from the centefield bleachers...in an attempt to clean up the Sox' image Einhorn & Reinsdorf allowed that popular announcing crew to run norht with alot of casual &/or young fans...too bad bench Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider17 Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 Yeah. I forgot to include the Harry Carey loss in my list of ownership fumbles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 To those around 30.. was losing HC that big of a deal to you guys..?? I ask this because if it wasn't.. then do you think it's appropriate to still blame that on lack of attention? Most season ticket holders I know are in the 28 to 40 range... Me personally, I don't care that he was fired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyho7476 Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 I stopped going after they threw that world series...that was it for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 QUOTE(tonyho7476 @ Apr 18, 2005 -> 03:37 PM) I stopped going after they threw that world series...that was it for me. That hurt way more than HC in my opinion.. but I do hear a lot of people blaming his firing for lack of fans.. I was just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyho7476 Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 QUOTE(Steff @ Apr 18, 2005 -> 03:40 PM) That hurt way more than HC in my opinion.. but I do hear a lot of people blaming his firing for lack of fans.. I was just curious. I'm 28...so I don't remember much before the mid to late 80s...but a lot of those things mentioned sure would make sense to me. If the Sox were moved to a channel that couldn't be received well, I'm sure it hurt viewing and hence building a fan base. And Harry was a beloved character, so I could see some people being pissed....although it wouldn't make me change teams. Don't get any ideas Hawk! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upnorthsox Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 QUOTE(Steff @ Apr 18, 2005 -> 08:31 PM) To those around 30.. was losing HC that big of a deal to you guys..?? I ask this because if it wasn't.. then do you think it's appropriate to still blame that on lack of attention? Most season ticket holders I know are in the 28 to 40 range... Me personally, I don't care that he was fired. For many(mostly the older fans) it was definitely part of the equation, that he went over to the scrubs and turned the place into the beer garden it is now stings a little more. Let me ask you this, if a new owner came in now and summararily fired Hawk would it bother you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanOfCorn Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 QUOTE(Steff @ Apr 18, 2005 -> 08:31 PM) To those around 30.. was losing HC that big of a deal to you guys..?? I ask this because if it wasn't.. then do you think it's appropriate to still blame that on lack of attention? Most season ticket holders I know are in the 28 to 40 range... Me personally, I don't care that he was fired. I don't think it was what Harry did to or for the Sox, it's what he did for the Cubs. I went to Cubs games in the early 80's and you were lucky to have 5000 people in the stands. (My mom wouldn't let us go to Comiskey alone, but my dad lived by Wrigley, so she felt I was safer there) After Harry got there, the gentrification of the neighborhood, AND the fact that Cubs players would go out to the local bars (Palmeiro and Grace come to mind...especially Grace) swung the love to the North Side. I still think the biggest mistake JR made was not putting a new stadium on or near the lake next to McCormick Place. Look at all the stadiums on or near water, right near downtown now. PNC, Pac Bell, Great American. JR would have been the first one to "revitalize" a team by proper stadium placement. Instead, it went to the Orioles. People wouldn't think that going to the ballpark would be "scary" or "too far." You would be a very quick bus or cab ride away from downtown, so you'd get a lot more after work fans. Don't get me wrong, I like the fact that the stadium is where it is...I just think more people would go if it looked out over the lake and city than the Dan Ryan and train tracks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 (edited) QUOTE(Gldfinger5 @ Apr 18, 2005 -> 05:55 PM) I was listening to Lawrence Holmes last night and he was discussing the differences between the Cubs and White Sox in terms of media attention, fan base, and just overall popularity. One of the main discussions is why the Cubs are more popular and if the city of Chicago was ever a White Sox town. Now I'm only 25 so I can't go back to far, but I thought in the early 90's when the jerseys changed and we were one of the best teams in baseball that it was more of a Sox town than Cubs town. Do you guys agree or do you know of a time when you could be talking baseball with someone from outside Chicago and they'd just assume you were a Sox fan rather than a Cubs fan?? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think we were doing ok until the 84 season. After that it was all over. The Cubs then became the only game in town. Kids back then are now into their 30s. When we came home from school the Cubs were on. Most kids watched them and then went to play baseball or fast pitch or something. If they didn't do that then they brought a portable radio and listened to the game while they played fastpitch or baseball. Bein on during the day helped them a ton. However, many will tell you all of the day games is the reason for them not being able to win too. The Cubs basically had this town all to themselves because they had channel 9 WGN Superstation, while the White Sox went to Sportsvision, which you had to pay extra on cable. Cubs were free to watch and the White Sox were more money? Who are going to gain more fans? I blame WGN for the change in the city from White Sox to Cubs. This not only hurt us in and around the city, but nation wide. If we were on WGN instead of the Cubs we would have a ton more fans. People all over the country know the Cubs because of that damn station. As soon as we went from WGN to Sportsvision it was over. That is where I think it all went wrong. Edited April 18, 2005 by southsideirish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider17 Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 I don't think losing Harry cost us any existing fans so much as it decreased the draw for newer fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyho7476 Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 QUOTE(southsideirish @ Apr 18, 2005 -> 03:49 PM) I think we were doing ok until the 84 season. After that it was all over. The Cubs then became the only game in town. Kids back then are now into their 30s. When we came home from school the Cubs were on. Most kids watched them and then went to play baseball or fast pitch or something. The Cubs basically had this town all to themselves because they had channel 9 WGN Superstation, while the White Sox went to Sportsvision, which you had to pay extra on cable. Cubs were free to watch and the White Sox were more money? Who are going to gain more fans? I blame WGN for the change in the city from White Sox to Cubs. This not only hurt us in and around the city, but nation wide. If we were on WGN instead of the Cubs we would have a ton more fans. People all over the country know the Cubs because of that damn station. As soon as we went from WGN to Sportsvision it was over. That is where I think it all went wrong. This definately seems to be the recurring theme...makes a lot of sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 QUOTE(southsider17 @ Apr 18, 2005 -> 08:49 PM) I don't think losing Harry cost us any existing fans so much as it decreased the draw for newer fans. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't even think it cost us that. I don't think we lost any fans because of Harry. I think we may have lost more because of Jimmy Piersall. People still talk about the crazy crap he did and said. I think the two of them together are the best team of broadcasters the Sox ever had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upnorthsox Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 (edited) Honestly, let go straight to the root cause of the problem. IT'S ALL F'N TITO LANDRUM'S FAULT!!!!!!!!!!! Edited April 18, 2005 by upnorthsox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 QUOTE(tonyho7476 @ Apr 18, 2005 -> 08:50 PM) This definately seems to be the recurring theme...makes a lot of sense to me. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You would think the Blackhawks organization would learn a little from this mistake, wouldn't you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 QUOTE(upnorthsox @ Apr 18, 2005 -> 08:57 PM) Honestly, let go straight to the root cause of the problem. IT'S ALL F'N TITO LANDRUM'S FAULT!!!!!!!!!!! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> f***ing Britt Burns! Get a damn hat that fits! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider17 Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 F'en Dibber!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 QUOTE(upnorthsox @ Apr 18, 2005 -> 03:45 PM) For many(mostly the older fans) it was definitely part of the equation, that he went over to the scrubs and turned the place into the beer garden it is now stings a little more. Let me ask you this, if a new owner came in now and summararily fired Hawk would it bother you? I am so not the person to ask this... Honestly put... I don't care who calls the game. I would listen to Chip if it meant seeing the Sox win.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider17 Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 QUOTE(Steff @ Apr 18, 2005 -> 04:03 PM) I am so not the person to ask this... Honestly put... I don't care who calls the game. I would listen to Chip if it meant seeing the Sox win.. Yep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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