Kobe-Defense-Pippen talk

[whitesoxfan99]

It was stated before that Kobe locked up AI in the Finals.

 

Kobe has a couple of all-defensive teams under his belt.  I guess I'm wrong along with everyone who voted him in for it in multiple years.

 

Kobe is the better defender at the guard position.  Artest and Prince are SF's.

 

Iverson averaged over 35 PPG in that series, hardly what I would call, locked up. Kobe did a good job on Iverson in that series but Derek Fisher was largely responsible for Iverson struggling somewhat as well. Iverson shot close to 41% from the field which is not much below is career average and is actually higher than his career playoff average.

 

Bruce Bowen has made multiple all defensive teams as well including one when he played for Miami so your argument that he became a good defender when going to SA holds no weight. Also, all defensive team selections are often not a great indicator of how good someone is defensively. Shaq has made all defensive teams and he is not a good defender. He doesn't play good man to man defense and watching him try to defend a pick and roll is comical. Guys considered to be elite players get votes for all defensive teams whether or not they deserve it. Doug Christie was first team all defense one year and he has never been what I would call a great defensive player.

 

And there is very little difference between a SG and SF defensively in the NBA.

[whitesoxfan99]

So everyone else agrees that T-Mac is as good a defender as Kobe?

 

I'd say Kobe is a little better, but T-Mac completely shut down Glen Robinson in the playoffs a few years back (when Robinson had averaged over 20 PPG) which is something Kobe never has done. Also, when they play against each other T-Mac does just as good of a job on Kobe as Kobe does on McGrady and that is from me watching the game not just numbers.

[hammerhead johnson]

Sure, I've watched bowen.  I recognize that he's been all-defensive partly based on playing with Timmy.  He's good, but not great.

 

I swear, some people could just never get it right. :headshake

[hammerhead johnson]

Bruce Bowen is an elite perimiter defender. The only guy in the entire NBA who is better is Ron Artest. It goes without saying.

 

Pippen? Put a gag on that dope. I loved the guy when he was out on the court, but when it comes to judging talent, his basketball thoughts are piss-poor. He tells me what NOT to think, similar to sleepy or nighttrain.

[hammerhead johnson]

By all means, call him a dumbass.  But I'm gonna disagree with you every single time. 

 

Depends on what you mean by "perimeter" defender.  Artest is more lock-down.  Kobe is better in all aspects of defense.  LeBron is just as good, and better in the passing lanes.  Hughes and Arenas are better in the passing lanes and will get more steals.  Kidd, when healthy.  Possibly Iguodala in the future...

 

OMG, you think that Larry Hughes and Lebron James would even rank in a Top 15 perimiter defenders list? Holy f***ing s***. Those guys are competent, nothing special. Do names like Prince, Posey, Bell, and Hassell mean anything to you?

 

Jason Kidd and Arenas are point guards. When people talk about perimiter defenders, they're talking about SGs and SFs.

 

Again... :headshake

Edited April 25, 2005 by hammerhead johnson

[witesoxfan]

I was talking about T-Mac.

 

 

Don't even put those two in the same sentence defensively.  Kobe's D is probably underrated because of his scoring proficiency.  He(Kobe) can lock down.  He(Kobe) defends well.  I've seen it time and time again during their championship (Damn, I hate the lakers) runs.  Maybe you weren't following basketball then, but I won't assume..

 

No you weren't

[SleepyWhiteSox]

No you weren't

 

Don't put those two (Kobe and T-Mac) in the same sentence in terms of defense. Kobe is superior to T-Mac. Get it?

[witesoxfan]

Don't put those two (Kobe and T-Mac) in the same sentence in terms of defense.  Kobe is superior to T-Mac.  Get it?

 

You are putting words into my mouth. I have never compared TMac and Kobe defensively. Not once.

 

Kobe is better than TMac defensively, regardless. Not by as much as you would like to think, but he is better

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Kobe bryant is one of the most overated defenders in the league. If you do not believe me you can go ahead and get others opinions on him ( unless of course they are a lakers fan they would be slurping him). He is always good, sometimes very good, but how often is he great? He is just like mcgrady, if they were not 30 point scorers they would never be eligible for defender of the year.

 

I didn't mean for there to be a misunderstanding, witesox. It was meant for qwerty since he pulled off this gem.

[qwerty]

I didn't mean for there to be a misunderstanding, witesox.  It was meant for qwerty since he pulled off this gem.

 

Just in case you didn't know mcgrady is always praised for his defense much like bryant. Mcgrady has been up for dopy ( top ten defensive player according to the voters) before as has bryant. Hell bryant is up for it this year and he was pretty s***ty defensively to say the least.

[DBAHO]

Would anyone suggest T-Mac has been a better defender than Kobe this season because of the MOTIVATION factor?

[SleepyWhiteSox]

I swear, some people could just never get it right. :headshake

 

I stand by those words. He's good, but not great.

 

I swear, some people never mature. Instead of attempting to belittle my comments because you think you're more knowledeable than I am in an opinion-based discussion, make a valid addition to the discussion by backing up your argument instead of basically just saying "Your opinion doesn't follow mine and therefore you are wrong." Don't just disagree for the sake of disagreeing because you're coming in defense of your boyfriend.

 

You said LeBron wouldn't even figure into a top 15 list of perimeter defenders. Name them. And don't forget to include Posey and Bell...

 

And last time I checked, PG's don't play in the post. Therefore, they qualify as perimeter players.

 

Again... :headshake

[qwerty]

Would anyone suggest T-Mac has been a better defender than Kobe this season because of the MOTIVATION factor?

 

Kobe should be more motivated than anyone in the league. He thought he could win without shaq and he was mistaken. He didn't feel losing shaq would be that big of loss and oh was he wrong. Kobe bryant is a moron and i only hope for the worst for him and the lakers.

[hammerhead johnson]

I stand by those words.  He's good, but not great.

 

I swear, some people never mature.  Instead of attempting to belittle my comments because you think you're more knowledeable than I am in an opinion-based discussion, make a valid addition to the discussion by backing up your argument instead of basically just saying "Your opinion doesn't follow mine and therefore you are wrong."  Don't just disagree for the sake of disagreeing because you're coming in defense of your boyfriend.

 

You said LeBron wouldn't even figure into a top 15 list of perimeter defenders.  Name them.  And don't forget to include Posey and Bell...

 

And last time I checked, PG's don't play in the post.  Therefore, they qualify as perimeter players.

 

Again... :headshake

 

I'm past the point of having a civil conversation about basketball with you, dude.

 

You miss the mark every f***ing time. Lebron James is decent right now, at best. Anyone with half a clue would tell you the same. What in the hell do you want me to say to back this up other than the fact that I actually strive to know things about the NBA, unlike some people.

 

If he's Top 15, I'm a motherf***ing astronaut.

 

PGs don't swarm around the perimiter like SGs and SFs. They don't get consideration in the traditional sense. Of course you didn't know that.

 

How could you not know that Posey and Bell are terrific defenders? I'll tell you how. You have your head waaay up your you know what.

[DBAHO]

You said LeBron wouldn't even figure into a top 15 list of perimeter defenders.  Name them.  And don't forget to include Posey and Bell...

Posey

Bell

 

Igoudula

Christie

Bowen

Prince

Hassell

McKie

Kirilenko

Artest

Augmon

Peterson

Ginobili

Pietrus

Battier

 

And some more stats here on a Bowen vs. T-Mac vs. Kone comparison on defense;

Bowen - PER on defense as a SF = 14.7

Bryant - PER on defense as a SG = 15.1

McGrady - PER on defense as a SF = 13.6

 

The thing is PER is a stat that not only indicates how good you are on defense compared to your offensive stats and how your opponent does on offense and defense. So even though Bryant has a higher PER, opponents would score way more on him, because Kobe scores a lot more than Bowen, and he only has a PER .4 higher than Bowen, who is much weaker offensively.

[DBAHO]

Kobe should be more motivated than anyone in the league. He thought he could win without shaq and he was mistaken. He didn't feel losing shaq would be that big of loss and oh was he wrong. Kobe bryant is a moron and i only hope for the worst for him and the lakers.

Kobe the GM wants the Lakers to draft a PG now. Bet Chucky Atkins loved that.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Posey

Bell

 

Igoudula

Christie

Bowen

Prince

Hassell

McKie

Kirilenko

Artest

Augmon

Peterson

Ginobili

Pietrus

Battier

 

And some more stats here on a Bowen vs. T-Mac vs. Kone comparison on defense;

Bowen - PER on defense as a SF = 14.7

Bryant - PER on defense as a SG = 15.1

McGrady - PER on defense as a SF = 13.6

 

The thing is PER is a stat that not only indicates how good you are on defense compared to your offensive stats and how your opponent does on offense and defense. So even though Bryant has a higher PER, opponents would score way more on him, because Kobe scores a lot more than Bowen, and he only has a PER .4 higher than Bowen, who is much weaker offensively.

 

Judging from those numbers, bowen isn't much better than kobe, although I have no idea what they mean.

 

Could you show the numbers for the rest of the players listed?

 

Might as well throw in Kidd and LeBron.

 

And I hope you meant Plastic Man Augmon from 10 years ago. Peterson has lackluster D, along with anyone in a Raps uni...I also mentioned Christie, when healthy...and Kirilenko plays the post...

Edited April 25, 2005 by SleepyWhiteSox

[SleepyWhiteSox]

I'm past the point of having a civil conversation about basketball with you, dude. 

 

You miss the mark every f***ing time.  Lebron James is decent right now, at best.  Anyone with half a clue would tell you the same.  What in the hell do you want me to say to back this up other than the fact that I actually strive to know things about the NBA, unlike some people.

 

If he's Top 15, I'm a motherf***ing astronaut.

 

PGs don't swarm around the perimiter like SGs and SFs.  They don't get consideration in the traditional sense.  Of course you didn't know that. 

 

How could you not know that Posey and Bell are terrific defenders?  I'll tell you how.  You have your head waaay up your you know what.

 

 

Lay off the weed, marley. There really isn't any need to get your panties in a bunch.

 

If you're going to get into a basketball discussion and whine and b**** because everyone isn't agreeing and you're not getting your way, than just don't respond to my posts. You do realize it was you responding to my posts, right?

 

I take this as light-hearted, innocent banter. It's just sports. If I knew it was making you cry, I wouldn't have carried on.

 

I'm not past the point of having a civil discussion with anyone. Maybe some people just don't know how... :headshake

[DBAHO]

Judging from those numbers, bowen isn't much better than kobe, although I have no idea what they mean.  

 

Could you show the numbers for the rest of the players listed?

 

Might as well throw in Kidd and LeBron.

 

And I hope you meant Plastic Man Augmon from 10 years ago.      Peterson has lackluster D, along with anyone in a Raps uni...I also mentioned Christie, when healthy...and Kirilenko plays the post...

This on Peterson from the FA period of last season;

 

In addition to being a pretty good outside shooter, Peterson is also a fine defensive player. Last year, he held opponents to a paltry 12.6 PER. Since none of the Raptors' other perimeter defenders are particularly well regarded, Peterson would seem to be responsible for all of that, though he wasn't quite as effective in 2002-03.

 

I'm not going to show all of those PER's because that would take ages, but here is the general idea of it from 82games.com (there are both offensive and defensive PER's); e.g http://www.82games.com/04LAL6C.HTM

 

the PER is a complicated single number rating developed by John Hollinger

and used extensively in his excellent Pro Basketball Prospectus books.

 

The league average PER is set to 15, but for this view the comparison between

a player's production and the opponent production at the position is the focus.

At a glance you can tell whether there has been a net positive or negative

overall contribution while playing that position.

[hammerhead johnson]

If you're going to get into a basketball discussion and whine and b**** because everyone isn't agreeing and you're not getting your way, than just don't respond to my posts.  You do realize it was you responding to my posts, right?

 

I take this as light-hearted, innocent banter.  It's just sports.  If I knew it was making you cry, I wouldn't have carried on.

 

I'm not past the point of having a civil discussion with anyone.  Maybe some people just don't know how...  :headshake

 

Seriously, you are the Sports Bar version of AnthraxFan. And you're right, I should have put you on ignore a long time ago.

[hammerhead johnson]

Posey

Bell

 

Igoudula

Christie

Bowen

Prince

Hassell

McKie

Kirilenko

Artest

Augmon

Peterson

Ginobili

Pietrus

Battier

 

Kick-ass f***ing post.

 

My Top 15 Perimiter & Mid-Range Defenders:

 

Josh Smith ATL

Gerald Wallace CHA

Tayshaun Prince DET

Mikael Pietrus GS

Ron Artest IND

Kobe Bryant LAL

James Posey MEM

Desmond Mason MIL

Trenton Hassell MIN

Andre Iguodala PHI

Doug Christie ORL

Bruce Bowen SA

Eric Williams TOR

Raja Bell UT

Andrei Kirilenko UT

 

Honorable mention:

 

Tony Allen BOS

Caron Butler LAL

 

Kirilenko is the one guy that could play PF. A true freak, and an absolute joy to watch. He's my third favorite player in the NBA after Tyson and Big Ben. And I know that you love him.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Seriously, you are the Sports Bar version of AnthraxFan.  And you're right, I should have put you on ignore a long time ago.

 

 

[hammerhead johnson]

Haha, good one.