Bears Draft Grade

[jackie hayes]

That is exactly what I was saying. Most picks in the 2nd round do not have the skills/experience to start now. s***, a lot of 1st rounders don't even have that. Bradley may be a higher risk, but he will also be a higher reward.

"Start" was the wrong word -- I should have said "contribute". Just a mistake, sorry about that. Every one of the guys I listed is more ready than Bradley to contribute in 2005/2006.

[ZoomSlowik]

Ok, so most of the players in rounds 1-3 are not projects? They are for sure NFL starters? Nothing to work on? No busts? They are ready to step into the NFL right now and start? What the hell are you smoking?

 

There's a big difference between being an instant starter and being a basically special teams only player your first year. Only a handful of first rounders are going to start right away, but there are an awful lot of rookies that are going to end up playing fairly big roles by the end of the year. It sounds like the Bears have no intention of making Bradley a starter, or even making him the 3rd WR based on what they have said. A lot of the guys taken on the first day will at least have a chance to start, even some second day guys might squeek into significant playing time.

Edited April 29, 2005 by ZoomSlowik

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Apr 29, 2005 -> 03:18 AM)

There's a big difference between being an instant starter and being a basically special teams only player your first year. Only a handful of first rounders are going to start right away, but there are an awful lot of rookies that are going to end up playing fairly big roles by the end of the year. It sounds like the Bears have no intention of making Bradley a starter, or even making him the 3rd WR based on what they have said. A lot of the guys taken on the first day will at least have a chance to start, even some second day guys might squeek into significant playing time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That is what they say now. Who knows what happens in the mean time. They may not plan on it, but I don't remember Carolina making any big plans for Keary Colbert to start last year either. Steve Smith gets hurt and here comes his opportunity. Sometimes talent and hard work forces itself onto the field. We are just going to have to wait and see.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Apr 29, 2005 -> 03:15 AM)

"Start" was the wrong word -- I should have said "contribute".  Just a mistake, sorry about that.  Every one of the guys I listed is more ready than Bradley to contribute in 2005/2006.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

contribute? Hmmm, I am sure Bradley will be contributing on special teams. I thnk they plan on making him a kick or punt returner. You can make a big contribution doing that. I highly doubt ALL those guys are going to or are guaranteed to make a contribution that could be as significant as that.

[ZoomSlowik]

I'm not sure why they would have him be the primary kick and punt returner. Azumah is one of the best kickoff returners in the league, and R.W. has been pretty effective on punt returns. More likely he'll be a gunner on the punt team and maybe the other kickoff returner. Not exactly the same thing.

[jackie hayes]

contribute? Hmmm, I am sure Bradley will be contributing on special teams. I thnk they plan on making him a kick or punt returner. You can make a big contribution doing that. I highly doubt ALL those guys are going to or are guaranteed to make a contribution that could be as significant as that.

Ah, but he's "guaranteed" to be a huge guy on returns. Okay.

 

Sorry, perhaps he's Dante Hall, but most special teamers are just not that important. Or maybe I've forgotten how far that Chad Morton signing got the Redskins.

 

Funny, btw, that you use Keary Colbert as an example: "Holds the University of Southern California career record with 207 receptions, sixth on the all-time Pac-10 list, topping the previous mark of 204 by Kareem Kelly (1999-2002)...2,964 career receiving yards rank third on the Trojans all-time record chart (eighth on the all-time Pac-10 list), surpassed only by Kelly (3,104) and Johnnie Morton (3,201, 1990-93)...Gained more than 100 yards receiving in six contests and caught a pass in his last 36 consecutive games...Joined Keyshawn Johnson (1,362 yards in 1994 and 1,434 in 1995) and Mike Williams (1,265 in 2002 and 1,314 in 2003) as the only players in school history to gain more than 1,000 yards receiving in a season twice in a career." From http://www.nflplayers.com/players_network/...k.aspx?ID=35662. Kinda maybe a little more experienced than Bradley? And maybe that helps.

 

Could you stop with all this 'they're not guaranteed to be pro bowlers anyway' stuff? We know that, that's not the point.

[witesoxfan]

All those guys are projects. Give me a break. Who knows when he will contribute? Neither you or I know that. I would never project something like that. Who knows?

 

If you are going to use the thought process of thinking that all those players are projects, then hell, Alex Smith is a project, Ronnie Brown is a project, Braylon Edwards is a project, because you do not know if they will pan out and play well.

 

Apparently your definition of project and mine are different. When I think of a project player, I think of a very talented player who has the tools to be a first round pick and can be an elite player in the league(Mark Bradley, Matt Jones, Chris Henry, Adrian McPherson, Frank Gore...that type), but something is holding him back - be it past injuries, attitude problems, or just him having raw talent - and he will have to be worked in slowly.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Apr 29, 2005 -> 03:40 AM)

Ah, but he's "guaranteed" to be a huge guy on returns.  Okay.

 

Sorry, perhaps he's Dante Hall, but most special teamers are just not that important.  Or maybe I've forgotten how far that Chad Morton signing got the Redskins.

 

Funny, btw, that you use Keary Colbert as an example:  "Holds the University of Southern California career record with 207 receptions, sixth on the all-time Pac-10 list, topping the previous mark of 204 by Kareem Kelly (1999-2002)...2,964 career receiving yards rank third on the Trojans all-time record chart (eighth on the all-time Pac-10 list), surpassed only by Kelly (3,104) and Johnnie Morton (3,201, 1990-93)...Gained more than 100 yards receiving in six contests and caught a pass in his last 36 consecutive games...Joined Keyshawn Johnson (1,362 yards in 1994 and 1,434 in 1995) and Mike Williams (1,265 in 2002 and 1,314 in 2003) as the only players in school history to gain more than 1,000 yards receiving in a season twice in a career."  From http://www.nflplayers.com/players_network/...k.aspx?ID=35662.  Kinda maybe a little more experienced than Bradley?  And maybe that helps.

 

Could you stop with all this 'they're not guaranteed to be pro bowlers anyway' stuff?  We know that, that's not the point.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Please.

 

I never said he was guaranteed to make a big contribution as a kick/punt returner. I said he could. He has just as much a chance as doing that as any of the players you pointed out making huge contributions to their respective teams. That is just the way it goes. He don't know what they will do no more than I do. That was my point. Nothing more and nothing less.

 

I wasn't using Keary Colbert as a perfect comparison to Mark Bradley, that is obviously a ridiculous comparison. My comparison was to how plans change. You may not have plans for him to be a contributor, but then something happens, such as an injury or poor play. YOu just don't know what is going to happen. Just because they don't plan on him playing and starting does not mean he can't or won't. That was my comparison. You took it out of context, but that's ok.

 

I never said they are not guarnteed to be pro bowlers. Where did this come from? A select few are pro bowlers. I believe I said starters or key contributors. If they are not starters or key contributors then the team must be doing something else with them. Maybe this something else would be considered developing them. Maybe they are developing them because they are projects and not NFL ready just yet. That's all.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Apr 29, 2005 -> 03:39 AM)

I'm not sure why they would have him be the primary kick and punt returner. Azumah is one of the best kickoff returners in the league, and R.W. has been pretty effective on punt returns. More likely he'll be a gunner on the punt team and maybe the other kickoff returner. Not exactly the same thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You can speculate on that all you want. I just know Angelo stated that he was going to be doing some kick off and punt returning. I like Azumah myself and doubt very highly that he replace him. I can see him replacing RW however. He is ok, but we could get better in that area. I know that a gunner on the punt return team and the "other" kickoff returner are not the same things and that is not what I took out of the Angelo conversation. Again, you can speculate on what he meant all you want.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Apr 29, 2005 -> 06:08 AM)

If you are going to use the thought process of thinking that all those players are projects, then hell, Alex Smith is a project, Ronnie Brown is a project, Braylon Edwards is a project, because you do not know if they will pan out and play well.

 

Apparently your definition of project and mine are different.  When I think of a project player, I think of a very talented player who has the tools to be a first round pick and can be an elite player in the league(Mark Bradley, Matt Jones, Chris Henry, Adrian McPherson, Frank Gore...that type), but something is holding him back - be it past injuries, attitude problems, or just him having raw talent - and he will have to be worked in slowly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not all of them, but the majority are projects. Alex Smith is without a doubt a project. There is absolutely no doubt about that. He is very raw as a QB. Ronnie Brown is not. Braylon Edwards is not. Cedric Benson is not.

 

Mark Bradley, Matt Jones, Chris Henry, Adrian McPherson all are. Frank Gore? OK, some see the upside in him. I don't see it. He will be average at best, but ok, he is a project I guess.

 

Do you think Mike Vick was a project? I think so. Was LaDanian Tomlinson a project. I don't think so.

 

It is funny how some are upset at the Bears taking a "project" player in the second round when we could have had someone else that would not have been a "project" player, but the same people want a project in Mike Williams over a more polished complete player in RB Cedric Benson. If you want to argue that Mike Williams is not a project then I really don't understand. Here is a guy who missed a whole year of football. He never showed he could seperate from DBs and never ran routes well. All he could do is run slow and out muscle and jump college DBs. He is a project. Then we would have had a first round project instead of a early 2nd round project. Then what would we have done in the early 2nd? Draft a RB that we would also have to try and develop? Kind of a strange thought process some people have.

 

One more thing I would like to add. We only had 2 picks in the first 3 rounds. I believe that this influenced the Bears 2nd round pick. They needed to take someone that they liked, at a position they needed, and that could bring a huge reward. IMO it was a risk that they had to take at that time.

[jackie hayes]

Please.

 

I never said he was guaranteed to make a big contribution as a kick/punt returner. I said he could. He has just as much a chance as doing that as any of the players you pointed out making huge contributions to their respective teams. That is just the way it goes. He don't know what they will do no more than I do. That was my point. Nothing more and nothing less.

 

I wasn't using Keary Colbert as a perfect comparison to Mark Bradley, that is obviously a ridiculous comparison. My comparison was to how plans change. You may not have plans for him to be a contributor, but then something happens, such as an injury or poor play. YOu just don't know what is going to happen. Just because they don't plan on him playing and starting does not mean he can't or won't. That was my comparison. You took it out of context, but that's ok.

 

I never said they are not guarnteed to be pro bowlers. Where did this come from? A select few are pro bowlers. I believe I said starters or key contributors. If they are not starters or key contributors then the team must be doing something else with them. Maybe this something else would be considered developing them. Maybe they are developing them because they are projects and not NFL ready just yet. That's all.

This is hopeless.

 

Everything I can find from Carolina about Colbert shortly after the draft suggests that he was behind Smith, Mush, and Proehl, but still was ready to contribute if necessary (good hands, knows the position well, smart player, etc). The Bears -- not me, mind you -- are saying that Bradley is not ready. Angelo -- not me, mind you -- said that he is a "work in progress". The Bears are even treating him differently. Instead of learning a couple positions as most backups do, he's going to be limited to one position so as to get up to speed.

 

This guy played one year in college, and even then he didn't get many touches, yet you say he's just as ready as a three-year starter like Justin Miller. You argue that he's just as likely as anyone to contribute immediately, when THE TEAM THAT DRAFTED HIM says otherwise. Okay, coach.

[T R U]

Irish your lack of knowledge of football is really something..

 

The NFL is not like the MLB or NHL where you draft players in the top rounds that hopefully one day will develop into good players for your club.. Theres a reason you cant just jump from High School into the NFL, drafting players that high you expect them to step in and play and be ready to play.. An 18 yr old can get drafted in round 1 of MLB or NHL and go to the minors and learn and progress, put on size and get experiance.. In the NFL you are already expected to be ready to step in and be a part of the team right away..

 

Most of the 1st to 2nd day draft picks in the NFL should be ready to come right in and contribute to the team.. The second day of the draft is where you go out and grab some players that have POTENTIAL and can sit and develop for a while without having to be thrown right into the mix although there are some that have done that (Randall Gay undrafted FA and starts for NE in the super bowl)

 

First round NFL draft picks are not projects unless you run into special cases such as Matt Jones, and the only reason I even say him is because he has no posistion and its up to Jacksonville to decide how they are going to use him, even so he will see the field this season..

 

There is a huge difference taking a player like Bradley who had 34 career catches and was incosistant as opposed to taking a polished and NFL ready WR such as Mark Clayton..

 

Teams dont spend first/second round draft picks on players that arent going to be able to contribute in SOME WAY the immediate season unless they make a reach on a guy like Bradley.. Even though Jones has no posistion, he still showed good hands and has great speed, but how many times do you see teams take gambles in the first round on a player like him?? Not very often..

 

The only exception to this is QB, and there is no way around that.. QB is THE toughest posistion in football due to the fact that you have to know so much and do so much to be a good QB that its ok to draft one in the first round without having him step right in, thats just about the only posistion where the college ranks cant jump immediatley into the NFL and be a standout... WR, RB, CB all of those other skilled posistion can have guys come in from the first round, step in, and contribute right then and there..

 

Lets just look at it this way...

 

Alex Smith - Should be able to start

Ronnie Brown - Will Start

Braylon Edwards - Will Start

Cedric Benson - Will Start

Cadillac Williams - Will Start

Pac Man Jones - Will Start

Troy Williamson - Will Start

Antrel Rolle - Will Start

Carlos Rogers - Will Start

 

and thats only a sample..

 

Like wite said, you just must have a different thinking on what is a "project"

Edited April 29, 2005 by T R U

[ZoomSlowik]

How do you figure that Williams is a project? The guy was flat out one of the most productive WR's in college football the two years he played. Did you not watch him play? Your whole "seperation" argument is total crap, I'm sick of hearing it. You're not backing it up with any kind of support other than your opinion. He had plenty of plays where he was wide open on a post or double move or slant with no one near him. More importantly, he still managed to make the catch regardless of pressure on fade routes or jump balls down field, something a lot of guys struggle with. The guy has excellent hands and leaping ability, he just can't be stopped in a jump ball situation. Apparently you have problems with him that no one else does. Kiper knows more about the draft than pretty much anyone, and he had him listed as the top prospect in the draft. Scouts Inc had him firmly listed has the #2 WR with a 97 rating, between Edward's 99 and Williamson's 94. The weakness that they listed had nothing to do with poor route running or a lack of seperation or a lack of agility. The first concern they list is his potential to gain weight, and his lack of top end speed, and he's not ultra elusive in the open field. Most guys his size dont fit the last two, and that's not his playing style anyways. That's two of the better scouts when it comes to the NFL draft that both like him quite a bit, compared to you being the only person I've seen having him listed as a "project" receiver that can't get seperation.

 

I'd much rather have him than the guy that Scouts inc had ranked 3rd of the 3 big RB's, and stated "there are lingering concerns about his character, attitude and speed that make him a potential disappointment at the next level," especially if we take him #4 overall at a position that I don't see as a serious need. I'd rather go with the "physical phenom and a dynamic WR prospect with the potential to develop into an impact #1 target in the NFL," which is something the Bears could really use.

 

I'm done with this.

Edited April 29, 2005 by ZoomSlowik

[T R U]

How do you figure that Williams is a project? The guy was flat out one of the most productive WR's in college football the two years he played. Did you not watch him play? Your whole "seperation" argument is total crap, I'm sick of hearing it. You're not backing it up with any kind of support other than your opinion. He had plenty of plays where he was wide open on a post or double move or slant with no one near him. More importantly, he still managed to make the catch regardless of pressure on fade routes or jump balls down field, something a lot of guys struggle with. The guy has excellent hands and leaping ability, he just can't be stopped in a jump ball situation. Apparently you have problems with him that no one else does. Kiper knows more about the draft than pretty much anyone, and he had him listed as the top prospect in the draft. Scouts Inc had him firmly listed has the #2 WR with a 97 rating, between Edward's 99 and Williamson's 94. The weakness that they listed had nothing to do with poor route running or a lack of seperation or a lack of agility. The first concern they list is his potential to gain weight, and his lack of top end speed, and he's not ultra elusive in the open field. Most guys his size dont fit the last two, and that's not his playing style anyways. That's two of the better scouts when it comes to the NFL draft that both like him quite a bit, compared to you being the only person I've seen having him listed as a "project" receiver that can't get seperation.

 

I'd much rather have him than the guy that Scouts inc had ranked 3rd of the 3 big RB's, and stated "there are lingering concerns about his character, attitude and speed that make him a potential disappointment at the next level," especially if we take him #4 overall at a position that I don't see as a serious need. I'd rather go with the "physical phenom and a dynamic WR prospect with the potential to develop into an impact #1 target in the NFL," which is something the Bears could really use.

 

I'm done with this.

 

 

Excellent post.

 

Although I think Benson will be a very good back for Chicago, they could have gone either way (Benson or Williams) and it wouldnt have bothered me..

[witesoxfan]

Excellent post.

 

Although I think Benson will be a very good back for Chicago, they could have gone either way (Benson or Williams) and it wouldnt have bothered me..

 

Of course it wouldn't have bothered you.

 

Miami had already selected the best back in the draft and had no shot at either Benson or Williams

[T R U]

Of course it wouldn't have bothered you.

 

Miami had already selected the best back in the draft and had no shot at either Benson or Williams

 

I like the Bears, since I am from Chicago.. THEREFOR yes, I would have been happy with either one of those picks..

[witesoxfan]

I like the Bears, since I am from Chicago.. THEREFOR yes, I would have been happy with either one of those picks..

 

You mean therefore

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(T R U @ Apr 29, 2005 -> 04:26 PM)

Irish your lack of knowledge of football is really something..

 

The NFL is not like the MLB or NHL where you draft players in the top rounds that hopefully one day will develop into good players for your club.. Theres a reason you cant just jump from High School into the NFL, drafting players that high you expect them to step in and play and be ready to play.. An 18 yr old can get drafted in round 1 of MLB or NHL and go to the minors and learn and progress, put on size and get experiance.. In the NFL you are already expected to be ready to step in and be a part of the team right away..

 

Most of the 1st to 2nd day draft picks in the NFL should be ready to come right in and contribute to the team.. The second day of the draft is where you go out and grab some players that have POTENTIAL and can sit and develop for a while without having to be thrown right into the mix although there are some that have done that (Randall Gay undrafted FA and starts for NE in the super bowl)

 

First round NFL draft picks are not projects unless you run into special cases such as Matt Jones, and the only reason I even say him is because he has no posistion and its up to Jacksonville to decide how they are going to use him, even so he will see the field this season..

 

There is a huge difference taking a player like Bradley who had 34 career catches and was incosistant as opposed to taking a polished and NFL ready WR such as Mark Clayton..

 

Teams dont spend first/second round draft picks on players that arent going to be able to contribute in SOME WAY the immediate season unless they make a reach on a guy like Bradley.. Even though Jones has no posistion, he still showed good hands and has great speed, but how many times do you see teams take gambles in the first round on a player like him?? Not very often..

 

The only exception to this is QB, and there is no way around that.. QB is THE toughest posistion in football due to the fact that you have to know so much and do so much to be a good QB that its ok to draft one in the first round without having him step right in, thats just about the only posistion where the college ranks cant jump immediatley into the NFL and be a standout... WR, RB, CB all of those other skilled posistion can have guys come in from the first round, step in, and contribute right then and there..

 

Lets just look at it this way...

 

Alex Smith - Should be able to start

Ronnie Brown - Will Start

Braylon Edwards - Will Start

Cedric Benson - Will Start

Cadillac Williams - Will Start

Pac Man Jones - Will Start

Troy Williamson - Will Start

Antrel Rolle - Will Start

Carlos Rogers - Will Start

 

and thats only a sample..

 

Like wite said, you just must have a different thinking on what is a "project"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

T R U, I have forgotten more about football than you will ever know. You argue like a little kid as you always start or end with an insult. You can argue without doing that, but then would you be completely satisfied with yourself? No, most likely not. Your post is simply ridiculous and deserves no further response.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Apr 29, 2005 -> 08:17 PM)

How do you figure that Williams is a project? The guy was flat out one of the most productive WR's in college football the two years he played. Did you not watch him play? Your whole "seperation" argument is total crap, I'm sick of hearing it. You're not backing it up with any kind of support other than your opinion. He had plenty of plays where he was wide open on a post or double move or slant with no one near him. More importantly, he still managed to make the catch regardless of pressure on fade routes or jump balls down field, something a lot of guys struggle with. The guy has excellent hands and leaping ability, he just can't be stopped in a jump ball situation. Apparently you have problems with him that no one else does. Kiper knows more about the draft than pretty much anyone, and he had him listed as the top prospect in the draft. Scouts Inc had him firmly listed has the #2 WR with a 97 rating, between Edward's 99 and Williamson's 94. The weakness that they listed had nothing to do with poor route running or a lack of seperation or a lack of agility. The first concern they list is his potential to gain weight, and his lack of top end speed, and he's not ultra elusive in the open field. Most guys his size dont fit the last two, and that's not his playing style anyways. That's two of the better scouts when it comes to the NFL draft that both like him quite a bit, compared to you being the only person I've seen having him listed as a "project" receiver that can't get seperation.

 

I'd much rather have him than the guy that Scouts inc had ranked 3rd of the 3 big RB's, and stated "there are lingering concerns about his character, attitude and speed that make him a potential disappointment at the next level," especially if we take him #4 overall at a position that I don't see as a serious need. I'd rather go with the "physical phenom and a dynamic WR prospect with the potential to develop into an impact #1 target in the NFL," which is something the Bears could really use.

 

I'm done with this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Zoom, I guess we will just have to see about who is right or wrong about this while they are playing on the field.

 

I recall last year when we were arguing about how you should draft in fantasy football because you thought I drafted silly or foolishly since I did not draft a RB with my first two picks. You were wrong about that, and I ended up looking very smart and won both my leagues last year. Only the play on the field will tell which one of us will be right or wrong again this time.

[T R U]

T R U, I have forgotten more about football than you will ever know.

 

 

yeah im so sure, the way your trying to argue s*** on here now is pathetic.. and clearly shows that you know VERY little about football.. Everything I have posted has had points backing it up.. yours is mindless bulls*** that makes no sense what so ever YET you cant get that through your head even when EVERYONE responding is telling you how wrong you are.. oops, havent started/finished with an insult yet... youre a dumbass, there we go, since thats my trademark!

Edited April 30, 2005 by T R U

[Mamoscott]

Zoom, I guess we will just have to see about who is right or wrong about this while they are playing on the field.

 

Ok, be sure to remind us in 3-4 years once Mark Bradley has hopefully shown enough promise to get some significant playing time on the football field for the Bears. :

[GoodAsGould]

T R U, I have forgotten more about football than you will ever know.

 

 

I wonder where you got that from......

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(T R U @ Apr 30, 2005 -> 05:34 PM)

 

yeah im so sure, the way your trying to argue s*** on here now is pathetic.. and clearly shows that you know VERY little about football.. Everything I have posted has had points backing it up.. yours is mindless bulls*** that makes no sense what so ever YET you cant get that through your head even when EVERYONE responding is telling you how wrong you are.. oops, havent started/finished with an insult yet... youre a dumbass, there we go, since thats my trademark!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Another quality post. Keep up the great work.

[T R U]

Another quality post. Keep up the great work.

 

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(Mamoscott @ Apr 30, 2005 -> 11:48 PM)

Ok, be sure to remind us in 3-4 years once Mark Bradley has hopefully shown enough promise to get some significant playing time on the football field for the Bears.  :

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Mamo, was my post directed towards you? I believe it said ZOOM. I am sure he wont need me to come on and remind you. If/When it does happen you won't need me to remind you at all. Did ZOOM need a reminder during the football season last year? I doubt it, I think he already knew how certain players were doing.

 

We can wait 3-4 years for Bradley and see what he amounts to, or wait 2-3 years on Mike Williams and see what he does. If Mike Williams is a bust then the Bears still made a good decision.

Edited May 1, 2005 by southsideirish