From the MLB Rule Book

[IlliniKrush]

The batter becomes a runner and is entitled to first base without liability to be put out (provided he advances to and touches first base) when  He is touched by a pitched ball which he is not attempting to hit unless (1) The ball is in the strike zone when it touches the batter, or (2) The batter makes no attempt to avoid being touched by the ball; If the ball is in the strike zone when it touches the batter, it shall be called a strike, whether or not the batter tries to avoid the ball. If the ball is outside the strike zone when it touches the batter, it shall be called a ball if he makes no attempt to avoid being touched.

 

Now, i know this is hardly ever called. But it's never called because most HBP in question come on pitches where the batter "doesn't make an attempt" to get out of the way and they usually just let it slide. This was drastically different. Not only did he not move, but the pitch wasn't going to hit him. On a really slow curveball, he started his swing, stopped, and dropped his elbow in a blatant attempt to get hit by the pitch.

 

As an umpire (and i have been one for 4 years), you have to call that, period. Otherwise you almost can't call anything if a guy ever gets hit by a ball.

 

Umps made the right call. Flame them all you want for the rest of the series - no arguments there.

 

But this call can't be lumped in with the rest of the series due to bias.

Edited April 27, 2005 by IlliniKrush

[C_LEE45]

its over now lets worry about detroit

[Dick Allen]

The bottom line is Crede leaned into it. It is hardly ever called. If Jason Kendall leaned into the same pitch today for Oakland (he's leaned into many before) and they made the call, we would all be saying its the correct call. Wendelstedt holds a grudge. This kind of call is exactly how he gets his revenge.

[IlliniKrush]

The bottom line is Crede leaned into it. It is hardly ever called. If Jason Kendall leaned into the same pitch today for Oakland (he's leaned into many before) and they made the call, we would all be saying its the correct call. Wendelstedt holds a grudge. This kind of call is exactly how he gets his revenge.

 

Respectfully disagree.

 

"Not moving" is hardly ever called. Moving into a slow curveball, when the pitch wouldn't have hit you, is called.

[Chisoxfn]

I have to disagree with this. This is one of those issues where it may be in the rule book, but it isn't called. Its kind of like a game ending in an NBA game with a carryover with like half a second left. (not a blatant carry over, just a carryover). It doesn't happen and shouldn't happen.

 

The rules may not have been adjusted but it isn't called. Its only called when its in the strike zone.

 

But still, its not what cost the Sox the game.

[Guest JimH]

Total inconsistency. When was the last time any of us saw that call made? DJ said Fernando Vina got away with way worse all the time, and he's right.

 

Crede did stick his elbow out but the pitch was well into the right handed batters box.

 

It was obviously a judgement call, and I wonder why in that situation Wendelstedt chose to make it. I also why he chose to throw out Crede for flinging his bat, how many players do that? A lot. Wendelstedt knows damn well the Sox are playing short handed and IMO he goes on a power trip. He's the home plate umpire, he is entitled to make those calls no question.

 

But there were too many screw ups in this series. The call at 1st base today (Podsednik being, ahem, doubled up in the 3rd inning or so) ... that call was blatantly bad.

 

The call at home plate last nite ... Froemming didn't put himself into position to see the play.

 

Sox didn't execute and that's why they lost. The umpiring certainly was error prone though, and in a close game it tends to affect the outcome. And it did.

 

Moving on to the Detroit series.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

I have to disagree with this.  This is one of those issues where it may be in the rule book, but it isn't called.  Its kind of like a game ending in an NBA game with a carryover with like half a second left. (not a blatant carry over, just a carryover). It doesn't happen and shouldn't happen.

 

The rules may not have been adjusted but it isn't called.  Its only called when its in the strike zone. 

 

But still, its not what cost the Sox the game.

 

 

This whole HBP thing sounds like sour grapes and excuses. You make your own breaks, you dont go trolling for one from the Umps cause it aint happening. Try getting a hit with RISP then come talk to me about getting screwed by the umpires.

[Dick Allen]

Respectfully disagree.

 

"Not moving" is hardly ever called. Moving into a slow curveball, when the pitch wouldn't have hit you, is called.

 

Crede definitely moved into the pitch. He dipped his elbow right into it. If he had not moved it probably wouldn't have hit him. I have seen guys move into pitches all the time. DJ even mentioned a famous one, Fernando Vina. He used to do what Crede did 25 times a year.

[IlliniKrush]

I have to disagree with this.  This is one of those issues where it may be in the rule book, but it isn't called.  Its kind of like a game ending in an NBA game with a carryover with like half a second left. (not a blatant carry over, just a carryover). It doesn't happen and shouldn't happen.

 

The rules may not have been adjusted but it isn't called.  Its only called when its in the strike zone. 

 

But still, its not what cost the Sox the game.

 

Don't really see how that's a fair comparison. The game is over at that point in basketball. In baseball it makes a difference, usually.

 

Really then...what should be called? Should guys be able to jump in front of anything, all the time, and it never gets called?

 

Because the Crede lean was as blatant as i think it can possibly get.

[Chisoxfn]

Total inconsistency.  When was the last time any of us saw that call made?  DJ said Fernando Vina got away with way worse all the time, and he's right.

 

Crede did stick his elbow out but the pitch was well into the right handed batters box.

 

It was obviously a judgement call, and I wonder why in that situation Wendelstedt chose to make it.  I also why he chose to throw out Crede for flinging his bat, how many players do that?  A lot.  Wendelstedt knows damn well the Sox are playing short handed and IMO he goes on a power trip.  He's the home plate umpire, he is entitled to make those calls no question.

 

But there were too many screw ups in this series.  The call at 1st base today (Podsednik being, ahem, doubled up in the 3rd inning or so) ... that call was blatantly bad.

 

The call at home plate last nite ... Froemming didn't put himself into position to see the play. 

 

Sox didn't execute and that's why they lost.  The umpiring certainly was error prone though, and in a close game it tends to affect the outcome.  And it did.

 

Moving on to the Detroit series.

 

In the Crede situation he dropped a F bomb and looked back at the ump. I will say this though, in those istuations guys get pissed when they miss pitches and get out. Crede was pissed, but even more pissed at the call. He was obviously on a shorter leash than most and it was crappy.

 

Hell why wasn't a warning ever given to Oakland during the series? I'd really like to know considering all the Sox that were hit. I mean the offices at MLB phone the Sox yet don't tell the umps to tell Oakland's pitchers or give htem a warning (not that I think they were throwing at the Sox). I just think it should go both ways.

 

On a sidenote, I freaking hate it. Baseball is about protecting your players. I was always taught if they are targeting your team you give them the chin music, you knock them on the ass (you don't try to hurt them or throw at there head). But you say hey, this is my team and were gonna back them. Baseball and the comissioners office is trying to take this away and they havebeen for a while, its bull.

 

I want pitchers throwing inside and who gives a s*** if they drill a guy every once in a while, its part of the game. If the other team thinks its intentional then there pitcher will hit one of your guys and it evens out.

[Chisoxfn]

Don't really see how that's a fair comparison. The game is over at that point in basketball. In baseball it makes a difference, usually.

 

Really then...what should be called? Should guys be able to jump in front of anything, all the time, and it never gets called?

 

Because the Crede lean was as blatant as i think it can possibly get.

When the pitch is thrown at you and that pitch was way way way inside, then it doens't matter. If Crede went out of his way to get hit, thats another story.

 

Its just a call that isn't made.

[Dick Allen]

I think the only reason Wendelstedt called it was because it was Ozzie's team. That is terrible umpiring. You cannot hold a grudge. It would be interested to see how Wendelstedt handled the same situation in previous games he worked the plate. I'm sure its happened on numerous occassions.

[IlliniKrush]

If Crede went out of his way to get hit, thats another story. 

 

Its just a call that isn't made.

 

That's what he did. Because that ball was not hitting him as he froze there.

[marsh]

I bet as soon as wendl-something got back to the ump area he had a huge s*** eating grin on his face.

[aboz56]

Regardless of the "rule book", since the ball was obviously inside there is no way you don't award the guy first base. Now many are saying he leaned into the ball, but he was turning his body, I don't think he said, I'm going to let this hit me.

 

As much as I don't like Hawk, he tells it how it is regardless of the situation and he, like everyone else, knows this was a piss poor call.

 

Whether or not it cost the Sox the game, we'll never know what would've happened had Podsednik reached the plate.

 

The Sox had chances to win, I just hate to see bad calls have any effect on the outcome of the game, which I feel they did impact the game today and yesterday as well.

[Dick Allen]

There's no doubt Crede went out of his way to get hit. Look at the replay over and over and you cannot conclude anything else. Which brings up another point. Crede was too willing to get the pressure of his shoulders to get something done. For a guy who has several game winning hits in his career, I find that disconcerning.

[T R U]

There's no doubt Crede went out of his way to get hit. Look at the replay over and over and you cannot conclude anything else. Which brings up another point. Crede was too willing to get the pressure of his shoulders to get something done. For a guy who has several game winning hits in his career, I find that disconcerning.

 

What does that matter... if a ball is thrown inside and im batting I will gladly let it hit me to load the bases up.. Doesnt mean he wants to get the pressure off his shoulders, but as an opportunity to get the bases loaded

[aboz56]

What does that matter... if a ball is thrown inside and im batting I will gladly let it hit me to load the bases up.. Doesnt mean he wants to get the pressure off his shoulders, but as an opportunity to get the bases loaded

Exactly, if the bases were loaded and he got hit, then everyone would call the guy a genius.

 

I am tired of everyone ripping on Crede.

[IlliniKrush]

Regardless of the "rule book", since the ball was obviously inside there is no way you don't award the guy first base.  Now many are saying he leaned into the ball, but he was turning his body, I don't think he said, I'm going to let this hit me. 

 

As much as I don't like Hawk, he tells it how it is regardless of the situation and he, like everyone else, knows this was a piss poor call.

 

Whether or not it cost the Sox the game, we'll never know what would've happened had Podsednik reached the plate.

 

The Sox had chances to win, I just hate to see bad calls have any effect on the outcome  of the game, which I feel they did impact the game today and yesterday as well.

 

Yes there is a way you don't award him first base - if he blatantly tries to get in front of it. Not "Doesn't move", but moves INTO it.

 

Hawk is also extremely biased and had no reasoning for his disconcern.

[Dick Allen]

What does that matter... if a ball is thrown inside and im batting I will gladly let it hit me to load the bases up.. Doesnt mean he wants to get the pressure off his shoulders, but as an opportunity to get the bases loaded

 

To lean into it and let it hit you on purpose. You aren't going to be scoring any runs. I would think Joe wants to drive in the big runs. It shows me Joe is still lacking a little confidence. Either that, or maybe he just wasn't seeing the ball well of this particular pitcher. He knew he leaned into it. If he was totally confident he wouldn't have said anything and stepped right back up to the plate.

[Flash Tizzle]

Quoting an excerpt from Illini's post:

 

If the ball is outside the strike zone when it touches the batter, it shall be called a ball if he makes no attempt to avoid being touched.

 

Alright. So if the rules were to be properly enforced, NO ONE could reach first base as the result of a HBP unless they were squarely hit. Because if they stood still, regardless of the location of the pitch, it should be called a ball.

 

This is a ridiculous rule. It's obviously never enforced, yet now it is?

Edited April 27, 2005 by Flash Tizzle

[aboz56]

Yes there is a way you don't award him first base - if he blatantly tries to get in front of it. Not "Doesn't move", but moves INTO it.

 

Hawk is also extremely biased and had no reasoning for his disconcern.

Blantantly trying to get in front of it is standing on top of home plate and trying to get hit with army gear on like Fernando Vina does.

 

Crede doesn't even stand close to the plate, the ball was way off the plate (at least 4 inches or so) and way inside. It was a breaking pitch that got away. He should've been standing on first base.

 

Crede is a mild tempered guy. He knew he got hosed, that is why he went ape s*** as did Ozzie.

[aboz56]

Quoting an excerpt from Illini's post:

Alright. So if the rules were to be properly enforced, NO ONE could reach first base as the result of a HBP unless they were squarely hit. Because if they stood still, regardless of the location of the pitch, it should be called a ball.

 

This is ridiculous.

Exactly, you see guys stand there and "take one for the team" and get rewarded for it.

 

What was any different about this?

[IlliniKrush]

Quoting an excerpt from Illini's post:

Alright. So if the rules were to be properly enforced, NO ONE could reach first base as the result of a HBP unless they were squarely hit. Because if they stood still, regardless of the location of the pitch, it should be called a ball.

 

This is ridiculous.

 

Crede didn't stand still. If he did, the ball wouldn't have hit him.

[T R U]

To lean into it and let it hit you on purpose. You aren't going to be scoring any runs. I would think Joe wants to drive in the big runs. It shows me Joe is still lacking a little confidence. Either that, or maybe he just wasn't seeing the ball well of this particular pitcher. He knew he leaned into it. If he was totally confident he wouldn't have said anything and stepped right back up to the plate.

 

Getting on base should be top priority.. now from what I understand there was 2 outs..

 

I dont get why he is in the wrong from trying to get on base.. I dont see it as he was trying to avoid having to be the guy or how it has anything to do with confidence..