From the MLB Rule Book

[IlliniKrush]

Oops did not see this.

 

No, it's not an unfair statement, it's my opinion.  You were or are an ump, maybe you're a bit biased from that perspective?

 

I actually did see the play on replay a few times, the point was that I saw it the first time and that was enough to make my judgement (opinion).  You may be an ump but I would venture to say I've seen a thousand more baseball games, just based on life span.  Doesn't make me right and you wrong though.  Just that you are stating the ideal world and I agree the call should be made.  It isn't though.  And why isn't it?  And why was it made in this instance?  That's the crux of the issue, and neither of us are in the heads of Hunter Wendelstedt and Bruce Froemming, etc.  I admit to leaning a bit on what Harrelson said, knowing full well he's a homer - ("before the series we talked about this being a bad crew for this team in this stadium").  Plus, what I saw with my own eyes.  Everyone on this board will be watching closely the next time this crew encounters the White Sox.  There were too many mistakes made.

 

Thing is, it would be nice if the umps now called this with conistency.  They won't, and that's the sad part.  I hope you are a better ump than Hunter Wendelstedt, I suspect you are, and much better.  Unfortunately, it would not be terribly hard to be better than Hunter Wendelstedt.

 

Well, i thought it was unfair because i took it as "you are just saying it was the right call because you are an ump"

 

That's just not the case. I may understand some calls better because i'm an ump, but you think i would just blindly stick up for Hunter? No way in hell.

 

I'm trying to remain free from bias of who made the call, something that should be done IMO, but others disagree. To each his own.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Rex, I'm sorry but you're wrong on this. First off you are making this judgement now after seeing replays of a viewpoint you do NOT get behind the plate. Secondly MLB is a much faster game than pony or little league.

 

I've never once denied a youngster his base when the pitcher had previously beaned a player. Neither the line umpires or the home plate umpire had a viewpoint to accurately make that call. The home plate umpire has to concentrate his effort on the strike zone. He can't concern himself with what the batter is doing. This is why there are so many appeals on check swings.

 

Now you apparently believe that Crede leaned into the pitch purposefully. I do not. I would rather say he misjudged it. As you said it was a curve ball & that is one of the hardest pitches to judge. The fact that it was thrown for a ball coupled with the fact Rowand had been beaned earlier strongly suggests the right call is to give Crede the base.

 

This game was never intended to be called based on instant replays. The perspective on the field is what matters the most.

Edited April 29, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT

[JUGGERNAUT]

I wanted to make this a separate post because it deals specifically with ramifications of the call.

 

What kind of message did this call send to the rest of the league given the number of Sox players HBP in the series & the fact that Rowand had been beaned earlier in the inning? How about Ozuna not being able to play because of his beaning?

 

How about the various groin & other injuries players suffer in an attempt to avoid such wild pitches? Avoiding such pitches is NOT a natural motion. It's a spastic one that could result in a disabliing injury.

 

The league doesn't need more injuries. It needs less of them. When star & fan favorites are put on the DL that hurts both attendance & exposure for the game. The umpire has the responsibility to call a game so as to avoid that risk.

 

Again I refer to my pony & little league experience. I can tell you emphatically that if we had a high number of hits batsmen in a prior matchup between two teams we would give warnings to both teams before the game started.

 

Now let's look at the HBP history unfold in the series:

Mon - HBP: P Ozuna (By B Zito), J Crede (By B Zito)

Tue - HBP: C Everett (By R Harden), P Ozuna (By K Yabu);

Wed - HBP: A Rowand (By J Duchscherer)

 

This crew was lapsed in both warnings & ejections. It's as if they didn't care. Perhaps the White Sox should have had a bench clearing brawl after Crede was beaned to make them care. It's their job to prevent that from happening to make sure both teams know they aren't going to tolerate bean ball. Duchscherer never should have faced Crede.

 

If this crew is not reprimanded for it's attitude in this series then I can only imagine what could happen when they do a RedSox & Yankees series. They are inviting bench clearing plays with thier attitude.

[Rex Hudler]

Rex, I'm sorry but you're wrong on this.  First off you are making this judgement now after seeing replays of a viewpoint you do NOT get behind the plate.  Secondly MLB is a much faster game than pony or little league.

 

I've never once denied a youngster his base when the pitcher had previously beaned a player.  Neither the line umpires or the home plate umpire had a viewpoint to accurately make that call.  The home plate umpire has to concentrate his effort on the strike zone.  He can't concern himself with what the batter is doing.  This is why there are so many appeals on check swings.

 

Now you apparently believe that Crede leaned into the pitch purposefully.  I do not.  I would rather say he misjudged it.  As you said it was a curve ball & that is one of the hardest pitches to judge.  The fact that it was thrown for a ball coupled with the fact Rowand had been beaned earlier strongly suggests the right call is to give Crede the base.

 

This game was never intended to be called based on instant replays.  The perspective on the field is what matters the most.

 

You are entitled to your opinion. I am not sure where the pony or little league reference comes in here, but I'll just ignore it because it means nothing. This was not a check swing. I have no doubt Crede got hit intentionally. It had nothing to do with misjudging anything. He turned as if to get out of the way, and then stuck his elbow out into the pitch.

 

Once again, it has absolutely nothing to do with prior HBP's. It was a freaking slow assed curveball that Crede moved into. You aren't even describing close to what happened. I am well aware of the benefit to the fans/sannouncers of instant replay. My opinion was the same after seeing it the first time. Seeing it again, didn't change my mind. And yes, believe it or not, I have changed my mind after seeing a play more than once.

 

If you want to say I am wrong, that's fine. You are entitled to an opinion. But at least give a halfway accurate description of the play as it actually happened when you make your argument.

[YASNY]

There is no way that Rex is "wrong". The umpire called what he saw and that is what he is supposed to do. A rare call? Yes. But, I've seen it called before. Carry over from the Ozzie deal last year? Possibly. But Rex is not "wrong".

[IlliniKrush]

Now you apparently believe that Crede leaned into the pitch purposefully.  I do not.  I would rather say he misjudged it.  As you said it was a curve ball & that is one of the hardest pitches to judge.  The fact that it was thrown for a ball coupled with the fact Rowand had been beaned earlier strongly suggests the right call is to give Crede the base.

 

Are you serious?

[The Beast]

Now, i know this is hardly ever called. But it's never called because most HBP in question come on pitches where the batter "doesn't make an attempt" to get out of the way and they usually just let it slide. This was drastically different. Not only did he not move, but the pitch wasn't going to hit him. On a really slow curveball, he started his swing, stopped, and dropped his elbow in a blatant attempt to get hit by the pitch.

 

As an umpire (and i have been one for 4 years), you have to call that, period. Otherwise you almost can't call anything if a guy ever gets hit by a ball.

 

Umps made the right call. Flame them all you want for the rest of the series - no arguments there.

 

But this call can't be lumped in with the rest of the series due to bias.

As a 7 year veteran umpire, this is the right call.

 

Crede needs to make an effort to get out of the way, period.

 

Similiar situation that I had in my game that had me toss 3 coaches that were arguing with me.

[Rex Hudler]

As a 7 year veteran umpire, this is the right call.

 

Crede needs to make an effort to get out of the way, period.

 

Similiar situation that I had in my game that had me toss 3 coaches that were arguing with me.

 

7 years?? I thought you were like 16?

[The Beast]

7 years??  I thought you were like 16?

Started when I was 10...cuz I wasn't playing because I had hurt my arm. I'm now 17, so I figure its been about 7 years.

[The Beast]

Bumping the thread today.

 

It looked like Crede did the same thing as before, and got the base.

 

Rowand getting hit looked similiar as well.

 

Now I see how bogus that call was.

[YASNY]

This same situation occured to Chipper Jones tonight. Got hit in the foot, but was not awarded first base. Bases were loaded. He ended up walking so it didn't make any difference.

[JUGGERNAUT]

A 10 yr old umpire? Not in my day. Don't bother mentioning Chipper Jones because that's a different league where pitcher's hit. Entirely different game when it comes to HBP. It's a horrible call in the AL because it encourages retailiation by the other team. That's the only way you can respond in the AL.

 

Keep an eye on this crew the rest of the year. I expect things to get progressively worse for them now that pitchers think they can get away with something.

[Rex Hudler]

Now this is getting ridiculous.... Are you even trying to type with a straight face or do you actually believe that drivel?

[JUGGERNAUT]

Now this is getting ridiculous....    Are you even trying to type with a straight face or do you actually believe that drivel?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I should ask you the same thing but then again it takes a mind capable of a macro perspective rather than a micro one & I'm not sure your capable of that. For the record, your post took it from a discussion on the topic to something personal. Not mine.

Edited May 1, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT

[YASNY]

A 10 yr old umpire?  Not in my day. Don't bother mentioning Chipper Jones because that's a different league where pitcher's hit.  Entirely different game when it comes to HBP.  It's a horrible call in the AL because it encourages retailiation by the other team.  That's the only way you can respond in the AL.

 

Keep an eye on this crew the rest of the year.  I expect things to get progressively worse for them now that pitchers think they can get away with something.

 

Don't give me that bulls***. The call was made in another game when people were saying it's never called. It gets called and we just have to live with it.

[JUGGERNAUT]

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?ac...t=0#entry663754

Enough said. Crede's defense rests.

 

Change the rule to match the NCAA & it's no longer controversial. Likewise it should help cut down on muscle related injuries that occur while avoiding the pitch.

Edited May 1, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT

[Rex Hudler]

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?ac...t=0#entry663754

Enough said.  Crede's defense rests. 

 

Change the rule to match the NCAA & it's no longer controversial.  Likewise it should help cut down on muscle related injuries that occur while avoiding the pitch.

 

So because you didn't like the outcome of this particular call, we should change the rule??

 

A baserunner cannot collide with the catcher in the NCAA either. Shall we change that rule too?

 

How about the NCAA rule which interprets a change of direction as a stop when a pitcher is throwing from the stretch?

 

Let's just change all the rules we don't agree with.

[IlliniKrush]

Can we use metal bats?

[SoxFan1]

Can we use metal bats?

Sure....this + steroids = 284752783654 foot home runs.