Nash wins MVP

[SleepyWhiteSox]

I think the award goes out to who the voters feel is "most valuable to their team". Not best player. With your lists , you seem to think the best player should get it.

 

You would think it's a fairly simple concept...

[rangercal]

No, not really.  All their numbers went down, most had injuries, and you're joking if you think KG would win it going from one of the best in the West last year to not making the playoffs this year.  There's no value in that.

 

You really didn't even present a valid argument against Nash winning it.

 

Nash won it not because he will go down in history as one of the best players to play the game, but because there was a lack of strong performances this year for MVP.  It speaks more on the level of talent of the NBA right now.  Nobody really broke through to make a strong case for MVP this year, and that is a trend that may continue...

 

I still have no idea why you compared him to Kidd from years ago if the award is for THIS year...

You could make an argument for a few guys winning it, nash is definatley one of those guys. I don't see why not.

[rangercal]

You would think it's a fairly simple concept...

Its a simple concept to most.

[rangercal]

even though I feel Bibby , or Kidd would have led that team to the same record fact is, they were not there. Nash was on the right team to be the most valuable player. Put nash on almost any other team, and he does not get the award. When I think about it though, Phoenix was struggling with out nash. It really showed his value to that team.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

You could make an argument for a few guys winning it, nash is definatley one of those guys. I don't see why not.

 

Sure. That's how it is every year. But the strongest case usually wins.

 

But to be honest, outside of Nash and maybe shaq, I really couldn't see any others who had a strong case. Nobody had their impact on how their teams became so strong and won so many games. KG? C'mon now...He's great, but the wolves were s***ty as hell this year. It would have been a mockery of the award to give it ti him...

[rangercal]

Sure.  That's how it is every year.  But the strongest case usually wins.

 

But to be honest, outside of Nash and maybe shaq, I really couldn't see any others who had a strong case.  Nobody had their impact on how their teams became so strong and won so many games.  KG?  C'mon now...He's great, but the wolves were s***ty as hell this year.  It would have been a mockery of the award to give it ti him...

True, its hard to say duncan too because, the spurs weren't exactly struggling without him.

Edited May 7, 2005 by rangercal

[SleepyWhiteSox]

True, its hard to say duncan too because, the spurs weren't exactly struggling with out him.

 

Exactly. And you can't miss that many games and still win it.

 

I'm not some huge Nash fan either. It was more of a default win than anything else.

 

But saying he didn't deserve it because he isn't the greatest PG of all time or whatever is ridiculous. It's not a life-time achievement award. You're not competing against the players of the past. It doesn't matter if somebody had a better year than you 5 years ago and didn't win it. It's a single season award.

 

Like I said before, because of the lack of amazing individual season-long efforts by a player on a top team in the league, it was slim pickings this year...

 

The talent level and greatness of the past just isn't there in the NBA currently...

Edited May 7, 2005 by SleepyWhiteSox

[rangercal]

Exactly.  And you can't miss that many games and still win it.

 

I'm not some huge Nash fan either.  It was more of a default win than anything else.

 

But saying he didn't deserve it because he isn't the greatest PG of all time or whatever is ridiculous.  It's not a life-time achievement award.  You're not competing against the players of the past.  It doesn't matter if somebody had a better year than you 5 years ago and didn't win it.  It's a single season award.

 

Like I said before, because of the lack of amazing individual season-long efforts by a player on a top team in the league, it was slim pickings this year...

 

The talent level and greatness of the past just isn't there in the NBA currently...

Nash would be the 3rd best player on his own team. But he is the most valuable of him, amare, and marion.

 

You don't have so many individual stand out talents as in years past because teams are more deeper, and not as dependent on one individual.

[Jordan4life_2007]

The thing is jordan was not the best player in the league when johnson won his mvps. No matter how much of a homer someone is jordan should not have won mvp's those years. Johnson was nearly averaging triple doubles while being able to play all five positions and play them well. He was also a top notch lock down defender to boot.

 

Magic won the mvp in 1987, 1989, and 1990. I Agree that Jordan shouldn't have won the mvp in 87. The Bulls only won 40 games. But don't even pretend that MJ wasn't mvp worthy in 89 and 90.

 

1989 stats and awards= 32.5 ppg, 8 rpg, 8 apg, 2.89 steals, .538 fg%, 85% ft%, all nba first team, all defensive first team. The ONLY thing that kept Michael from winning it that year was the fact the Bulls only won 47 games. Which was not a bad total considering Grant and Pippen were still young and dumb at the time.

 

1990 stats and awards= 33.6 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 6.3 apg. 2.77 spg "led the league" .526 fg%, 84.8 ft%, all nba first team, all defensive first team. I honestly thought Charles Barkley should've won the mvp that season. He led a team with Hersey fricken Hawkins and total crap to 53 wins.

Edited May 7, 2005 by Jordan4life_2004

[qwerty]

Magic won the mvp in 1987,  1989,  and 1990.  I Agree that Jordan shouldn't have won the mvp in 87.  The Bulls only won 40 games.  But don't even pretend that MJ wasn't mvp worthy in 89 and 90. 

 

1989 stats and awards= 32.5 ppg,  8 rpg,  8 apg,  2.89 steals,  .538 fg%,  85% ft%,  all nba first team,  all defensive first team.  The ONLY thing that kept Michael from winning it that year was the fact the Bulls only won 47 games.  Which was not a bad total considering Grant and Pippen were still young and dumb at the time.

 

1990 stats and awards= 33.6 ppg,  7.0 rpg,  6.3 apg.  2.77 spg "led the league"  .526 fg%,  84.8 ft%,  all nba first team,  all defensive first team.  I honestly thought Charles Barkley should've won the mvp that season.  He led a team with Hersey fricken Hawkins and total crap to 53 wins.

 

It was really a toss up at the time. You could easily make a case for both of them. Only thing that jordan did much better then was score points and you have to remember in that two year time span jordan shot over 1,500 more shots. You give him all those extra touches per game and he would be in jordan's range. I am sure magic's versatility played into this considering like i said he could play all five positions and do so well.

[qwerty]

No, not really.  All their numbers went down, most had injuries, and you're joking if you think KG would win it going from one of the best in the West last year to not making the playoffs this year.  There's no value in that.

 

You really didn't even present a valid argument against Nash winning it.

 

Nash won it not because he will go down in history as one of the best players to play the game, but because there was a lack of strong performances this year for MVP.  It speaks more on the level of talent of the NBA right now.  Nobody really broke through to make a strong case for MVP this year, and that is a trend that may continue...

 

I still have no idea why you compared him to Kidd from years ago if the award is for THIS year...

 

 

There numbers that have reressed this year are still better than nash's. Even if they were equal those three's defense>>>>>> nash's defense. They make players alter their shots almost at will. If you take shaq, duncan, and garnett, and replace them with whoever those teams would not be nearly as good. The heat played ''very well'' with his but were only 4-4 without him. At the most they would be five games or so over with let's say, marc jackson in the middle. How about we replace duncan with another ''good'' player antoine walker? Garnett with rasheed wallace or kenyon martin? You could put jason kidd, jamal tinsley, mike bibby, brevin knight, dwayne wade, alston, etc... on the suns, surrounded by all that offesive fire power and they are bound to rack up double digit assists. Now of course you will just say no not possible considering you do not believe in defense and pass first point guards. Do you really think that if Nash had players like tim thomas they would really be the same? Nash doesn't really make the offense, everyone in that starting line up makes the offense, nash is just the catalyst, the doesn't make him an mvp, find another catalyst and the offense still runs.

 

 

There has never been an mvp that you could say, wow, several other guys that play the same exact position could come in and get very similar results. To say the mvp is not the best player during the regular season is silly i don't care what the title is. The best player in baseball gets it, not who the press thinks helped there team the most. Same goes with every other sport. The player who put up the best stats always gets it. It also helps for that player to a be a franchise player for them to win it. Once more ( since you apparently skipped over it) amare was putting up these numbers in the second half of last year so there cannot be the excuse he made amare suddenly better. Has nash really made this team that much better or how about bringing in jimmy jackson and richardson? They surely were no help. Bring in a point guard that buys into the run and gun and voila, success.

 

 

Bottom line is mvp winners are irreplaceable and steve nash is not irreplaceable.

[Jordan4life_2007]

It was really a toss up at the time. You could easily make a case for both of them. Only thing that jordan did much better then was score points and you have to remember in that two year time span jordan shot over 1,500 more shots. You give him all those extra touches per game and he would be in jordan's range. I am sure magic's versatility played into this considering like i said he could play all five positions and do so well.

 

 

Well Michael was a sg, not a pg, his strength was scoring. And Magic couldn't score like Michael if his life depended on it. Not to mention the fact Michael Blows Magic out of the water defensively. I'm not disputing Magic's mvp years, but you could've easily made a case for Jordan, that's all i'm saying.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

There numbers that have reressed this year are still better than nash's. Even if they were equal those three's defense>>>>>> nash's defense. They make players alter their shots almost at will. If you take shaq, duncan, and garnett, and replace them with whoever those teams would not be nearly as good. The heat played ''very well'' with his but were only 4-4 without him. At the most they would be five games or so over with let's say, marc jackson in the middle. How about we replace duncan with another ''good'' player antoine walker? Garnett with rasheed wallace or kenyon martin? You could put jason kidd, jamal tinsley, mike bibby, brevin knight, dwayne wade, alston, etc... on the suns, surrounded by all that offesive fire power and they are bound to rack up double digit assists. Now of course you will just say no not possible considering you do not believe in defense and pass first point guards. Do you really think that if Nash had players like tim thomas they would really be the same? Nash doesn't really make the offense, everyone in that starting line up makes the offense, nash is just the catalyst, the doesn't make him an mvp, find another catalyst and the offense still runs.

There has never been an mvp that you could say, wow, several other guys that play the same exact position could come in and get very similar results. To say the mvp is not the best player during the regular season is silly i don't care what the title is.  The best player in baseball gets it, not who the press thinks helped there team the most. Same goes with every other sport. The player who put up the best stats always gets it. It also helps for that player to a be a franchise player for them to win it. Once more ( since you apparently skipped over it) amare was putting up these numbers in the second half of last year so there cannot be the excuse he made amare suddenly better. Has nash really made this team that much better or how about bringing in jimmy jackson and richardson? They surely were no help. Bring in a point guard that buys into the run and gun and voila, success.

Bottom line is mvp winners are irreplaceable and steve nash is not irreplaceable.

 

So I'm supposed to argue against hypothetical scenarios?

 

You're going at it completely wrong. You can't say so-and-so would have done the exact same job because there is no way to know that. MVP voting is based on facts and what actually happened, not what you think might have happened in these make-believe scenarios you keep bringing up.

 

The bottom line is that Nash played with the Suns this year, they had one of the greatest offenses in a long time, they had a huge turnaround from last year, and they were one of the best teams in the league. Keep telling yourself that other PG's would have done the exact same job. That really isn't based on facts, but oh well...

 

And no, I did not discount Amare or Marion or Q, but you're discounting the fact that Nash made their lives much, much easier. Would you mind telling me the numbers they put up when Nash didn't play this year compared to when he did? You'll notice the difference...Sure, Amare was showing signs of life last year, but how was their record then?

 

Bottom line is Nash drove that team, and their offense was one of the best in a very long time. Nobody else accomplished that this year.

 

And bringing in baseball made no sense either. Let's at least stick to the sport of discussion.

 

Oh yeah, Jordan losing to Barkley and Malone completely kills your argument that the MVP goes to the best player in the league.

[ChWRoCk2]

shaq improved an already good team, nash helped a team who could hardly win last year and when he was in the lineup they won, he changes the face of a team therefore more deserving of an mvp