El Duque

[Y2HH]

I'm not sure if this has been called to question on this board, so I'll go ahead and ask.

 

Is anyone else getting worried about Ozzie making the same mistake with El Duque as the Yankees did year after year? Oz has been allowing Duque's pitch count to soar above 110 consistantly now. Last two games I think his count was like 118 and 116. I understand Oz wants to get our starters wins, but if Duque gets injured because of this, it's not worth it.

 

At the beginning of the season I thought Oz was going to keep a close eye on his count for El Duque, but now that the year is progressing, I don't see it happening.

 

The reason it concerns me, weather we have Bmac in the minors or not, is that *IF* we make the playoffs, we need Duque in there, Bmac, as a rookie would be a deer in headlights in the postseason in comparison to Duque.

 

-y2

Edited May 7, 2005 by Y2HH

[Harry Chappas]

I think everyone is thinking that and it is a valid point. I suppose they ask him how he feels and he says fine. He has a history of breaking down so I think they should limit him but as Ed Farmer will tell you the only way to get stronger is to throw.

 

Great point.

[Y2HH]

This is actually the problem with Duque, and the Yankees consistantly make this mistake with him. As his pitch count soars, he actually gets stronger/better for THAT game, but it breaks his arm down in the process.

 

The Yankees would leave him in because he always says hes fine and as his stats show, leaveing him in LATE makes him even better, but you MUST NOT DO IT, as hard as it may be to take out a pitcher that is getting even better as the game progresses, when it comes to Duque, you have to make the decision to go to the pen.

 

 

I think everyone is thinking that and it is a valid point.  I suppose they ask him how he feels and he says fine.  He has a history of breaking down so I think they should limit him but as Ed Farmer will tell you the only way to get stronger is to throw. 

 

Great point.

[SkokieSox]

El Duque has been hurt, but prior to his signing, he was said to have one of the cleaner looking arms KW has seen. Isn't it possible that his last surgery and proper rehab has made his arm what it used to be, when he was throwing 130+ pitch counts in Cuba. As it has been pointed out, the more you throw, the stronger you get. If he indeed is healthy, I don't see why he can't throw 115 pitches a game, granted not every game, but enough to not be overly concerned. Guys use to do it all the time back in the day, and Hernandez is part of that mold IMO.

[upnorthsox]

El Duque has been hurt, but prior to his signing, he was said to have one of the cleaner looking arms KW has seen. Isn't it possible that his last surgery and proper rehab has made his arm what it used to be, when he was throwing 130+ pitch counts in Cuba. As it has been pointed out, the more you throw, the stronger you get. If he indeed is healthy, I don't see why he can't throw 115 pitches a game, granted not every game, but enough to not be overly concerned. Guys use to do it all the time back in the day, and Hernandez is part of that mold IMO.

 

But we're talking about a 40 yr old here, your playing with fire if you think he can be used like a 30 yr old.

 

His arm now has been "hardened up", now they need to dial it back some to make it last.

[SkokieSox]

But we're talking about a 40 yr old here, your playing with fire if you think he can be used like a 30 yr old.

 

His arm now has been "hardened up", now they need to dial it back some to make it last.

No one is holding Clemens back, and I'm not talking about a talent level comparison. True, Clemens doesn't have the injury history, but El Duque is healthy. If he gets hurt, he's going to get hurt. We don't have the luxury to have that guy go out and have an 85 pitch count. It's not his game. Holding him back may keep him healthy, but if we're limiting his pitch count and taking him out of his element, well, we'll be playing with fire.

[LosMediasBlancas]

I agree that it's a concern. I remember Ozzie saying that he expected all of his starters to go deeper into games than before. Ozzie needs to worry less about getting his starting pitchers wins and think more long term about what is best for the team. Duque's next start will be interesting, I don't see throwing 100+ pitches in 3 consecutive starts......make that 4.

Edited May 7, 2005 by LosMediasBlancas

[Al Lopez Ghost (old)]

El Duque's Pitch Counts:

 

Start one: 104

Start two: 97

Start 3: 96

Start 4: 111

Start 5: 118

Start 6: 116

 

Average is 107, but the last 3 games would be a heavy load trend.

[SoxFan562004]

No one is holding Clemens back, and I'm not talking about a talent level comparison. True, Clemens doesn't have the injury history, but El Duque is healthy. If he gets hurt, he's going to get hurt. We don't have the luxury to have that guy go out and have an 85 pitch count. It's not his game. Holding him back may keep him healthy, but if we're limiting his pitch count and taking him out of his element, well, we'll be playing with fire.

I think that this thread makes a good point, but I agree with SEAL. I'm just of the opinion that if he's going to pitch don't try and hold him back. Now McCarthy's ST and start in AAA gives me a little more confidence to say this, but I think with Duque's injury past he is likely to get hurt on his 20th pitch as his 120th...

[TLAK]

El Duque's Pitch Counts:

 

Start one: 104

Start two:  97

Start 3:  96

Start 4:    111

Start 5:    118

Start 6:    116

 

Average is 107, but the last 3 games would be a heavy load trend.

But keep in mind how much rest the Sox are giving all the pitchers. El Duque has gone on the 5th day only twice, 6 on his other starts.

[YASNY]

El Duque's a horse that is used to going deep in games. He's completely healthy now. He's a professional pitcher and knows what he can and can't do.

[CWSGuy406]

No one is holding Clemens back, and I'm not talking about a talent level comparison. True, Clemens doesn't have the injury history, but El Duque is healthy. If he gets hurt, he's going to get hurt. We don't have the luxury to have that guy go out and have an 85 pitch count. It's not his game. Holding him back may keep him healthy, but if we're limiting his pitch count and taking him out of his element, well, we'll be playing with fire.

 

No one is saying an 85 pitch count.

 

But was there really a reason that El Duque came out for the seventh last night, other than to have a chance at the win? He was at 99 or 100 pitches, and it's not like our bullpen was worked to death the past couple nights. It helped us last night, but down the road, it's gonna bite us in the ass.

 

And, this isn't the first time that this has happened. He went one inning too long last game, too, and that resulted in a pitch count at or over 110.

 

This isn't Mark Buehrle or Livan Hernandez were talking about. El Duque pitched a fine game -- not great, but good enough, going six strong and giving up three. There really was no need for him to go out in the seventh...

[CWSOX45]

Kenny will just wait until the Giants are out of the race and make a deal for Jason Schmidt. It's bound to happen.

 

CWSOX45

[YASNY]

No one is saying an 85 pitch count.

 

But was there really a reason that El Duque came out for the seventh last night, other than to have a chance at the win?  He was at 99 or 100 pitches, and it's not like our bullpen was worked to death the past couple nights.  It helped us last night, but down the road, it's gonna bite us in the ass.

 

And, this isn't the first time that this has happened.  He went one inning too long last game, too, and that resulted in a pitch count at or over 110.

 

This isn't Mark Buehrle or Livan Hernandez were talking about.  El Duque pitched a fine game -- not great, but good enough, going six strong and giving up three.  There really was no need for him to go out in the seventh...

 

If he felt strong, I see no reason why he shouldn't have pitched the 7th.

[CWSGuy406]

If he felt strong, I see no reason why he shouldn't have pitched the 7th.

 

That's the thing. Do you think any competitor with the right mind is going to say, "Take me out, I'm done". Especially not El Duque. I just think it's in the best interests of the team for the long haul that El Duque is limited to 105 pitches or right around there.

 

EDIT: And I should say, there are exceptions. If El Duque starts the inning with 90 pitches, and there are runners on base with two out, and he's at 108 pitches (just making this up), then obviously, you let him have his shot at getting out of the inning.

 

I just didn't like the decision to keep him in the game, especially when he was at 100 to start the inning.

Edited May 7, 2005 by CWSGuy406

[YASNY]

That's the thing.  Do you think any competitor with the right mind is going to say, "Take me out, I'm done".  Especially not El Duque.  I just think it's in the best interests of the team for the long haul that El Duque is limited to 105 pitches or right around there.

 

EDIT:  And I should say, there are exceptions.  If El Duque starts the inning with 90 pitches, and there are runners on base with two out, and he's at 108 pitches (just making this up), then obviously, you let him have his shot at getting out of the inning.

 

I just didn't like the decision to keep him in the game, especially when he was at 100 to start the inning.

 

I share your concerns, but I know what kind of horse El Duque is. In fact, so is his brother.

[SkokieSox]

No one is saying an 85 pitch count.

 

But was there really a reason that El Duque came out for the seventh last night, other than to have a chance at the win?  He was at 99 or 100 pitches, and it's not like our bullpen was worked to death the past couple nights.  It helped us last night, but down the road, it's gonna bite us in the ass.

 

And, this isn't the first time that this has happened.  He went one inning too long last game, too, and that resulted in a pitch count at or over 110.

 

This isn't Mark Buehrle or Livan Hernandez were talking about.  El Duque pitched a fine game -- not great, but good enough, going six strong and giving up three.  There really was no need for him to go out in the seventh...

It's also important to note that, as much as we'll need El Duque down the stretch, we'll need a fresh pen as well. Last year, we were forced to overwork our pen. This year, so far, we haven't needed to. As a result, I feel that translates to a major part of the pen's success this year, and will continue going forward. The less we need the pen in the early part of games, the more dominant they'll be in the latter portion.

[3E8]

Why are we getting so worked up about an extra 10-15 pitches? Do we know for a fact that if El Duque was held under a certain amount of pitches per game in NY that he would've not experienced 'dead-arm'? He hadn't pitched in almost two years. I think it would've happened whether his pitch limit was 120 or 100 or 80.

 

As long as KW wasn't lying to us, Hernandez came into this season in peak physical condition. I think you're doing a disservice to the team if you limit a strong competitor like him to the 100 pitch range.

[upnorthsox]

A good point to resurect this thread, since the last post El Duque in his next outing had his worse outing of the yr and has gone on the DL with a sore shoulder. Was it really worth overextending him to save the BP an inning?