Fast forward to the deadline...

[Punch and Judy Garland]

We are not gonna pay a closer more than 3/5 of our rotation. I don't care how good he is i don't want to pay a closer 8+ million.

 

 

Why not? There are a ton of teams in the bigs now that wish they had Billy Wagner as their closer, even at these dollars.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(qwerty @ May 11, 2005 -> 06:46 PM)

We are not gonna pay a closer more than 3/5 of our rotation. I don't care how good he is i don't want to pay a closer 8+ million.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We'd be paying him $4 million if we were to get him halfway through the season.

 

As for the payroll, who gives a s***? If JR and Co. are willing to raise it to get Wagner, why complain about how much each player is getting paid?

[Gene Honda Civic]

Dotel was the best deadline closer last season, right?  Am I missing someone?

 

Who did Oakland give up?  Teahan?  Who else...?

 

I know Teahan is a good prospect, but he certainly isn't a top prospect.  They didn't have to give up their Brian Anderson (Nick Swisher) for Dotel, yet we should give up Anderson to get Wagner?

 

And I realize that Wagner is better than Dotel, don't get me wrong.  But  I don't see the need in giving up Anderson/Sweeney/McCarthy...

As far as the Astros were concerned, they got some guy named Beltran for the price of the Great John Buck and Dotel.

 

Billy Beane kicked in Mike Wood and Teahan to sweeten the pot and take Dotel.

 

 

Beltran, not Dotel, was the big name in that trade. Especially because Houston had Lidge ready to step up.

[qwerty]

Why not? There are a ton of teams in the bigs now that wish they had Billy Wagner as their closer, even at these dollars.

 

I don't know where we are gonn apull the money out of our ass to resign him if we dalt for him.

 

We'd be paying him $4 million if we were to get him halfway through the season.

 

As for the payroll, who gives a s***?  If JR and Co. are willing to raise it to get Wagner, why complain about how much each player is getting paid?

 

If they were willing to raise the payoll that much to resign him that would be great but i have my doubts they are gonna want a closer making 8+ million dollars a year.

[Punch and Judy Garland]

My point is that if we won the World Series that we might have the dollars to keep him.

[Wedge]

I still say that rotation was damn good in '02.

 

It was a lot like the Cardinal's last year and ours this year. Not necessarily the best pitchers out there, but it was a very complete staff all the way around.

 

That said, I don't think we need Wagner. I think a big issue would be the ability to resign him. Money would be a huge issue. Additionally, he wants to be closer to his family, so we would probably not be able to resign him. I think there are better options out there. What they are bears investigation...

[3E8]

If we won the World Series, I bet our payroll would increase about 20%.

[Fotop]

I don't know where we are gonn apull the money out of our ass to resign him if we dalt for him.

If they were willing to raise the payoll that much to resign him that would be great but i have my doubts they are gonna want a closer making 8+ million dollars a year.

 

I agree qwerty, I doubt they'd take on a closer that gets paid that much. Personally, I feel as though Mike Gonzalez is a much more feasible option. It's known that Pitt has long had interest in Borch, so maybe Borch, another prospect get it done for Gonzalez.

 

I know a lot of you like to dream about Wagner, I secretly hold out that we'd get Helton somehow, someway...but in reality things like that are far from happening. The way this year's team is setup makes it so there's really no way to bring an impact guy in since there's a good amount of depth everywhere, and to upgrade you'd have to release some decent sized contracts (Everett, Dye, Konerko, etc.). It just seems like there's a lot of adjusting that needs to be made to add some of the big names...that's why I think you'll only see us add one or two guys to fill in the gaps (Graffanino, Gonzalez, etc).

[Punch and Judy Garland]

I just don't see any good options out there (yet anyways). Unfortunately, other teams will see that and the price on Wagner will be very large.

[Punch and Judy Garland]

Isn't Gonz pretty young? I wouldn't see then moving him but who knows. Being that he's in a walk year and that this is a special season I don't buy the "we're dreaming" reasoning that would normally apply to fantasy trades

[elrockinMT]

Fast forward to the trade deadline, and the Sox are still sitting atop the AL Central and hold one of the best records in the AL as well. Say the Sox hold a 5 game lead on the Twins, and about a 10 game lead for the wild card.

 

Say the Sox regulars are playing well, with no injuries, and are rounding into decent shape [Dye, Rowand and PK all get back close to their regular avg's, and Frank provides a good lift, splitting time with Everett to make Carl a big bat off the bench].  Say the pitching comes back to earth a bit, but not that big of a fall. The Sox won't be adding a starting pitcher, with B-Mac good insurance even if an injury would occur.

 

The sox likely wouldn't be adding an everyday player or a starting pitcher. Maybe a bench guy, but the price wouldn't be high. The only real spot where the Sox could add an impact player would be the bullpen [a complete, true closer--I like the Sox bullpen, but no guy is the "unhittable" type]. Would you do a deal centered around prospect Brian Anderson [and probably a bullpen arm or two like Baj or Diaz] for Billy Wagner?

 

I know Wagner is a FA in 2006. And the sox likely wouldn't offer a closer making $9 mill arbitration, so they'd lose him for nothing. A deal like this would be for getting deep into the playoffs, and a possible world series appearance. With the depth in the Sox OF [Dye for another yr, Pods should be re-signed, Aaron for 3 more yrs], Anderson likely wouldn't get a shot. By the time the Sox may need Anderson, Sweeney and Chris Young would likely be ready.

 

The flipside is how often have the sox been a team with a solid chance to win a world series. If the Sox keep up their current play, they would have a very good chance keeping the roster as is. But adding a dominating LH closer like Wagner would compliment the Sox current pen very nicely. Thoughts?

 

 

You don't trade one of your best rated prospects for a role player that may only be there for a year or so. Don't ever suggest gutting your system. We did this 2 or 3 years in a row with no success.

[Wedge]

I just don't see any good options out there (yet anyways). Unfortunately, other teams will see that and the price on Wagner will be very large.

 

If Yankees continue to tank... Mariano Rivera? Then we would complete our ex-Yankee staff.

[Punch and Judy Garland]

Billy Wagner a role player? Nope.

[Fotop]

Isn't Gonz pretty young? I wouldn't see then moving him but who knows. Being that he's in a walk year and that this is a special season I don't buy the "we're dreaming" reasoning that would normally apply to fantasy trades

 

I certainly buy the reasoning, the Phillies have a track record of wanting a king's ransom for any of their players. If that weren't true then guys like Polanco wouldn't be rotting away on their bench, and Howard would have gotten dealt last year. Realistically, with the way the market would shape up (w/wagner being the elite player, and many teams looking for a closer) do you think the Sox would overpay for Wagner?

 

I mean Hermanson hasn't given up a single run this year, Politte has been lights out, Marte has been decent, and Shingo can't be that bad can he? Personally, I think it's been the management of the bullpen that has made them look like a weakness this year and their deficiencies have been overblown (esp. on this site). My concerns lie with the offense, so to me by pumping all of the money we may have left into Wagner makes me somewhat hesitant. That's why I think Gonzalez is the pickup here, if the bullpen is as bad as people are trying to say. Then, you have some flexibility to add a bat or two which helps shore up the offense.

[qwerty]

If Yankees continue to tank... Mariano Rivera?  Then we would complete our ex-Yankee staff.

 

Bad joke.

 

Mariano Rivera: signed 21M 2-Year EXTENSION on 3/23/04- will make 10.5M in 05 and 06- deal includes 10.5M 2007 option (guaranteed w/ 60 saves in 06 or 114 combined 05 and 06) Agent: Fernando Cuza

[Wedge]

Bad joke.

 

Maybe we could get them to pay it

[beck72]

You don't trade one of your best rated prospects for a role player that may only be there for a year or so. Don't ever suggest gutting your system. We did this 2 or 3 years in a row with no success.

 

A trade of Brian Anderson wouldn't "gut" the Sox system. With Pods, Rowand and Dye around for two yrs, Sweeney would be ready for RF.

 

As far as trading goes, the only prospect worth anything the Sox parted with is Reed, and the Sox have Garcia for it. A solid #2, #3 SP who can eat innings for a young OFer = worth the price

 

Any trade would get the Sox ready to win deep in the playoffs. For a team that hasn't had many shots at the playoffs, let alone a W.S., trading a top minor leaguer in order to win in 2005 might be well worth it.

[beck72]

I certainly buy the reasoning, the Phillies have a track record of wanting a king's ransom for any of their players. If that weren't true then guys like Polanco wouldn't be rotting away on their bench, and Howard would have gotten dealt last year. Realistically, with the way the market would shape up (w/wagner being the elite player, and many teams looking for a closer) do you think the Sox would overpay for Wagner?

 

I mean Hermanson hasn't given up a single run this year, Politte has been lights out, Marte has been decent, and Shingo can't be that bad can he? Personally, I think it's been the management of the bullpen that has made them look like a weakness this year and their deficiencies have been overblown (esp. on this site). My concerns lie with the offense, so to me by pumping all of the money we may have left into Wagner makes me somewhat hesitant. That's why I think Gonzalez is the pickup here, if the bullpen is as bad as people are trying to say. Then, you have some flexibility to add a bat or two which helps shore up the offense.

 

I'm not suggesting the sox bullpen is bad. It's very solid. Just if it could be made stronger and potentially dominating one, it would make the sox ready to win for a short playoff series.

 

And the Phillies are very close to melt down mode. They need to retool their lineup even more than the Sox did after 2004. A sell off isn't far away

[sircaffey]

Any trade would get the Sox ready to win deep in the playoffs. For a team that hasn't had many shots at the playoffs, let alone a W.S., trading a top minor leaguer in order to win in 2005 might be well worth it.

 

Not to mention the Yankees and Red Sox appear vulnerable in contrast to years past. If there were a year to be solid and make a run at the AL Championship it's this year.

 

With all this being said throughout the thread, does anyone really think KW WOULDN'T deal Anderson for Wagner? I very much see KW going hard after Wagner, and hopefully getting him.

 

Also, JR/KW have already stated many times before the season that there is room to add payroll midseason if we have a need...

[KWs OK for Me]

I'm not suggesting the sox bullpen is bad. It's very solid. Just if it could be made stronger and potentially dominating one, it would make the sox ready to win for a short playoff series.

 

And the Phillies are very close to melt down mode. They need to retool their lineup even more than the Sox did after 2004. A sell off isn't far away

I think everyone needs to start praying for a 10 game losing streak by the Fighting Phils coincided with a 10 game winning streak by the Marlins and Braves

[Buehrle>Wood]

I pull out a BIG pass slip on this deal.

 

 

 

No thanks at all.

[sircaffey]

I'm not suggesting the sox bullpen is bad. It's very solid. Just if it could be made stronger and potentially dominating one, it would make the sox ready to win for a short playoff series.

 

Just think about it this way. Think about last year's crappy bullpen and the negative effect that it had on the team. Then contrast that with the bullpen this year, and you notice a huuuuge difference no? Well now add in Billy Wagner and you would notice an even bigger impact to this team's performance. The bullpen is vital, and if we add Wagner, we suddenly are playing 6-7 inning ballgames...

 

On a related note, had we kept Foulke instead of getting Boch, then I think we would have seen 2-3 division titles since 2000...

 

Bottomline, successful playoff teams have great closers. Bullpen by committee does not cut it.

Edited May 12, 2005 by sircaffey

[Fotop]

Just think about it this way.  Think about last year's crappy bullpen and the negative effect that it had on the team.  Then contrast that with the bullpen this year, and you notice a huuuuge difference no?  Well now add in Billy Wagner and you would notice an even bigger impact to this team's performance.  The bullpen is vital, and if we add Wagner, we suddenly are playing 6-7 inning ballgames...

 

On a related note, had we kept Foulke instead of getting Boch, then I think we would have seen 2-3 division titles since 2000...

 

Bottomline, successful playoff teams have great closers.  Bullpen by committee does not cut it.

 

But who says we have to be a bullpen by committee? With the way Ozzie is handling the pen, it certainly seems like that's the mode we're set in, but in reality it should be Hermanson out there for the ninth. In all seriousness, Guillen has too quick of a hook at all the wrong times, and he plays way too much with the lefty-right matchup. I'm not necessarily saying Wagner is an awful idea, I'd love to see him on our team. I just don't think the price is going to be right though, and I also believe help on the offensive side is a more glaring need of the team. We'll see if Frank has that great of an impact on the offense, but if the offense still continues to struggle into July, don't you think the flexibility of the remaining available payroll should be used on the offense? I sure do.

[KWs OK for Me]

The reason I think we should go out and get Wagner is more because there is no stand out offensive player that we could go out and get. What are the positions that we could upgrade at on offense? RF and 3B. The only perceivable 3B that will be available come trade deadline time will be Vinny Castilla. To that I say no thank you, I'm happy with Joe Crede. And in RF with both Jermaine and Carl I find it hard for KW to turn a trade for that position unless it involves dumping Dye off on another team which I think will be hard to do. I think the biggest offensive difference that will be made by any team come trade deadline time will be the addition of Frank back to the Sox. He will far and away be the biggest bat (minus Bonds) returning/going to a new team.

 

Because of that I think that KW has to take the oppurtunity to improve this team where possible, and that would be in the bullpen with a shutdown closer in Billy Wagner. With Wagner, like someone previously said, it would create set roles for your bullpen which would make Ozzie's decision making much easier for the back end of games. You would have Wagner in the 9th, Hermanson in the 8th (Marte if its lefty loaded), Marte/Politte/Shingo in the 7th. That would be one hell of a playoff bullpen, especially with the addition of the Count to the bullpen come playoff time.

 

People are saying that the price is too high, but we need to win or at least make it to the World Series. If come July we are in the same position we are in now, winning games, sitting a top the division with the best if not one of the best records in baseball I can't justify to myself why you wouldn't risk it to attempt to win it all, and I can't see how KW could justify it to himself either. It has been too long. I know it's early to be buying our WS tickets, but this is what Chicago needs and this is personally how I see us getting it!

[beck72]

But who says we have to be a bullpen by committee? With the way Ozzie is handling the pen, it certainly seems like that's the mode we're set in, but in reality it should be Hermanson out there for the ninth. In all seriousness, Guillen has too quick of a hook at all the wrong times, and he plays way too much with the lefty-right matchup. I'm not necessarily saying Wagner is an awful idea, I'd love to see him on our team. I just don't think the price is going to be right though, and I also believe help on the offensive side is a more glaring need of the team. We'll see if Frank has that great of an impact on the offense, but if the offense still continues to struggle into July, don't you think the flexibility of the remaining available payroll should be used on the offense? I sure do.

 

I like Hermanson for his attitude and his versatility. But by the end of the yr, I see good teams hitting him. If he gets hit, and Marte and Shingo are still a little iffy, the lock down bullpen is gone. Teams that have at least one shut down set up guy with a dominate closer have shown to have good success in the playoffs. Hell, Lidge and Foulke by themselves almost carried their teams.

 

With AJ, Rowand, PK, Dye, Pods and CArl hitting below their career avgs, the offensive help will come from their improvement, as well as from Frank