Fast forward to the deadline...

[JUGGERNAUT]

No way! Anderson is the heir-apparent in RF. Period. I am not mortgaging the future for Wagner who has never pitched in the AL. Especially when Hermanson is emerging as the dominant closer right now.

 

I think you need to put that in perspective. He finished with the Giants as their closer converting 17 out of 20 save opps in 2004 mostly in one 1/2 of baseball. Now he's yet to surrender an earned run. We are 1/2 way thru the 1st half almost & he has yet to surrender an earned run.

 

I want the following everyday players in 2006:

Pods, Iguchi, Thomas, <HR hitting 1B>, Crede, Rowand, Anderson, AJ, Uribe.

 

That's a lineup that could lead the AL in offense. I leave Koney's spot open because it's going to come down to $. If he's willing to sign a contract similar to his last one then keep him. But if he's looking for Drew like money then offer him arbitration & let him walk. Don't let him walk w/out offering him arbitration. He should put up enough HR's to qualify for Type A.

 

If it seems he's most likely to walk by the deadline then make the trade for Huff. He's struggling now which weakens his value some but a HR hitting LH 1B is a commodity that would greatly help the White Sox in the years to come. He can be signed to a contract for less than Koney's last one.

[beck72]

No way!  Anderson is the heir-apparent in RF.  Period.  I am not mortgaging the future for Wagner who has never pitched in the AL. Especially when Hermanson is emerging as the dominant closer right now.

 

I think you need to put that in perspective.  He finished with the Giants as their closer converting 17 out of 20 save opps in 2004 mostly in one 1/2 of baseball. Now he's yet to surrender an earned run.  We are 1/2 way thru the 1st half almost & he has yet to surrender an earned run.

 

I want the following everyday players in 2006:

Pods, Iguchi, Thomas,

---

, Crede, Rowand, Anderson, AJ, Uribe.

 

That's a lineup that could lead the AL in offense.  I leave Koney's spot open because it's going to come down to $.  If he's willing to sign a contract similar to his last one then keep him.  But if he's looking for Drew like money then offer him arbitration & let him walk. Don't let him walk w/out offering him arbitration.  He should put up enough HR's to qualify for Type A.

 

If it seems he's most likely to walk by the deadline then make the trade for Huff.  He's struggling now which weakens his value some but a HR hitting LH 1B is a commodity that would greatly help the White Sox in the years to come.  He can be signed to a contract for less than Koney's last one.

 

It doesn't matter if a closer switches leagues, like it would for a SP. A closer faces pinch hitters and doesn't have the free out in the 9th spot like a SP. Wagner would be fine in the AL.

 

And Sweeney is the heir apparent in RF. Anderson is a CFer. I'm not even sure if Anderson has even played RF [though I surmised that he could be called up if Everett's leg injury puts him on the DL]

 

The sox won't add a big bat like Huff, unless an injury occurs. The sox aren't going to bring in a big name who replaces a regular doing poorly. Ozzie said as much a week or two ago so as not to mess w/ team chemistry. He'll give the guy [pk, Rowand, Dye, AJ, etc] time to work through his slump

[JUGGERNAUT]

It doesn't matter if a closer switches leagues, like it would for a SP. A closer faces pinch hitters and doesn't have the free out in the 9th spot like a SP. Wagner would be fine in the AL.

 

And Sweeney is the heir apparent in RF. Anderson is a CFer. I'm not even sure if Anderson has even played RF [though I surmised that he could be called up if Everett's leg injury puts him on the DL]

 

The sox won't add a big bat like Huff, unless an injury occurs. The sox aren't going to bring in a big name who replaces a regular doing poorly. Ozzie said as much a week or two ago so as not to mess w/ team chemistry. He'll give the guy [pk, Rowand, Dye, AJ, etc] time to work through his slump

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There's another month & 1/2 before the break for these guys to turn it around. But if they are still struggling by the break be rest assured the Sox will be opening to dealing any of them with the exception of AJ.

 

As for CFers playing RF it's been done often in the majors. Just look at the Mets.

You put the best hitting defensive talents in your OF. CFers are made to play all OF positions. You can't say the same for corner OFers.

 

As for Huff, I disagree. With Gload being injured the need for a LH hitting 1B has risen. He's struggling now which means you would pay less to get him. It might be as simple as Contra + cash. That's assuming BMac is ready to join the rotation.

[sircaffey]

As for Huff, I disagree.  With Gload being injured the need for a LH hitting 1B has risen.  He's struggling now which means you would pay less to get him.  It might be as simple as Contra + cash.  That's assuming BMac is ready to join the rotation.

 

 

No way in hell it would only take Contreras and cash for Huff. TB doesn't want an aging veteran pitcher. Huff could easily bring in some quality young talent. TB would never want Contreras...

 

Closers switching league has little or no effect. They don't face the DH instead of the pitcher 3-4 times a game. That's where the inflation in ERA is for starters.

 

As far you saying this:

 

"I want the following everyday players in 2006:

Pods, Iguchi, Thomas,

---

, Crede, Rowand, Anderson, AJ, Uribe.

 

That's a lineup that could lead the AL in offense."

 

That's pretty optimistic considering we currently have a lineup very similar to that, that happens to be very poor...

Edited May 12, 2005 by sircaffey

[beck72]

There's another month & 1/2 before the break for these guys to turn it around.  But if they are still struggling by the break be rest assured the Sox will be opening to dealing any of them with the exception of AJ.

 

Except Ozzie has said publicly he's sticking with the guys he has, and doesn't see the need to add guys let alone deal them away. Getting rid of guys who are slumping yet are proven big league hitters won't help team chemistry a bit.

 

And TB won't take an old SP making a lot of cash. They want young cheap arms

[JUGGERNAUT]

TB has plenty of cheap young arms. Just look at their organization. They need some vets to grow with & Contra might be a good fit. Spending say $5M for a vet like Contra for 1 yr is not a big deal. The Nationals have done such deals for vets for the past 3 yrs.

 

Would it be enough for Huff? Probably not. You will have to add some ml talent to the mix. Someone mid-tier.

 

One of the things that always surprises me about some WSox fans is just what they think it will take to trade a player. Have they learned nothing from the trades Beane makes for Oakland? What did Beane pay to get Dye in his prime? What did Beane get for Hudson & Mulder? What did Philly get for Rolen? Big names are traded for less than what you expect all the time. It's just a matter of what a team thinks it needs to help it win.

 

TB simply has to make a decision of what will help them win more games in 2006 at less money: adding Contra or signing Huff.

 

As for closers switching leagues you're ignoring the fact that the OPS of the 7-9 hitters in the AL averages nearly 200 OPS better than the 7-9 hitters in the NL. It's not just about the pitcher. I'm not saying Wagner would have trouble. Hermy seems to be doing just fine though he did have experience in Boston. Wagner's a fine closer but I'm not if he's that much better than what we have for the much higher price we would have to pay.

[Wedge]

Wagner's a fine closer but I'm not if he's that much better than what we have for the much higher price we would have to pay.

 

Perfect summary.

[Punch and Judy Garland]

Well when you get Wagner you don't lose Hermanson, you get both. It would be a lights out backend.

[sircaffey]

One of the things that always surprises me about some WSox fans is just what they think it will take to trade a player.  Have they learned nothing from the trades Beane makes for Oakland?  What did Beane pay to get Dye in his prime?  What did Beane get for Hudson & Mulder? What did Philly get for Rolen?  Big names are traded for less than what you expect all the time.  It's just a matter of what a team thinks it needs to help it win.

 

I don't remember a mid thirty year (could be 40) old veteran pitcher who makes a lot of money in any of those trades. ONLY young quality players.

 

TB simply has to make a decision of what will help them win more games in 2006 at less money: adding Contra or signing Huff.

 

If only it were that easy. Except there happens to be many other teams in the league willing to do better than Jose Contreras.

 

Let's just say hypothetically that TB lost all their intelligence and was insane enough to take Contreras for Huff, why would the Sox subtract from their team for the stretch run? I think KW would be much more willing to deal prospects than take out a piece of the rotation...

[JUGGERNAUT]

But we've dealt quite a few prospects over the years to net nothing better than 2nd place. I didn't say Contra for Huff straight up. His age doesn't matter as much as his mileage. He doesn't have any where near the mileage on his arm that El Duque has. If Contra has less than 5L before the break with this offense he's sure to have a solid ERA. Contra has always been pegged as a guy that when it clicks for him he could be a dominant pitcher. There's certainly enough there to build a trade around w/out spending a top prospect in the pkg.

 

Do we need Huff? Too early to say. We really need to see how the team plays the rest of the 1/2 with Thomas coming on in late Jun. If there are signs of the middle of the rotation clicking with Thomas than I'd say no. We can always offer Koney arbit & at least get a comp pick from the team signing him. But if they continue to struggle than the answer's yes.

 

A greater need at that time though might be Shingo. It might be worth creating a pkg around Shingo to get a quality reliever like Dotel. But let's see if Shingo can turn it around first. Maybe he'll start brushing some hitters back to regain that inside corner again.

[sircaffey]

But we've dealt quite a few prospects over the years to net nothing better than 2nd place.  I didn't say Contra for Huff straight up. His age doesn't matter as much as his mileage.  He doesn't have any where near the mileage on his arm that El Duque has.  If Contra has less than 5L before the break with this offense he's sure to have a solid ERA.  Contra has always been pegged as a guy that when it clicks for him he could be a dominant pitcher.  There's certainly enough there to build a trade around w/out spending a top prospect in the pkg.

 

If that were to happen, then there would be no need to trade Jose. KW is not going to trade from a solid staff that he is in love with. If Contreras is doing what your hypothetical situation suggests, then KW would be much more willing to deal Anderson than Contreras. Also, TB is not 1 year away or even 2 years away from contending. Their staff is in shambles. Why would they trade their one big bargaining chip for a player that will only help them be 20 games under rather than deal Huff for 2-3 solid prospects. It makes no sense.

 

A greater need at that time though might be Shingo.  It might be worth creating a pkg around Shingo to get a quality reliever like Dotel.  But let's see if Shingo can turn it around first.  Maybe he'll start brushing some hitters back to regain that inside corner again.

 

Do you actually believe KW is going to add to this team by trading major league talent? Nothing in his past suggests that he will this year.

[Punch and Judy Garland]

If that were to happen, then there would be no need to trade Jose.  KW is not going to trade from a solid staff that he is in love with.  If Contreras is doing what your hypothetical situation suggests, then KW would be much more willing to deal Anderson than Contreras.  Also, TB is not 1 year away or even 2 years away from contending.  Their staff is in shambles.  Why would they trade their one big bargaining chip for a player that will only help them be 20 games under rather than deal Huff for 2-3 solid prospects.  It makes no sense.

Do you actually believe KW is going to add to this team by trading major league talent?  Nothing in his past suggests that he will this year.

 

 

I don't know that he will but Mo Olivo sorta hurts your argument.

[Wedge]

I don't know that he will but Mo Olivo sorta hurts your argument.

 

Not necessarily true... Mo was sort of a AAAA prospect in the trade for Garcia, whereas Contreras is a guy with a fairly established track record in the majors.

[Fotop]

Not necessarily true... Mo was sort of a AAAA prospect in the trade for Garcia, whereas Contreras is a guy with a fairly established track record in the majors.

 

AAAA prospect? Olivo was an everyday player for the white sox and the starting catcher. Hell half of this board almost jumped off a bridge after trading him AND reed. In hindsight, I guess you could call him that since he's been struggling, but at the time Olivo was ML-level, young talent.

[KWs OK for Me]

Not necessarily true... Mo was sort of a AAAA prospect in the trade for Garcia, whereas Contreras is a guy with a fairly established track record in the majors.

If I'm not mistaken, at the time Olivo (whom I have a jersey for and shed a tear when I heard he got traded) was batting .270 with 7 HRs and something like 35 RBIs through like 70 games, with a cannon for an arm. How is that not MLB ready?

[ChWRoCk2]

i wouldnt do the trade and nor would i want to deal some of our better minor leaguers, id consider gload however, i bet dye isnt with us too much longer, maybe a good two years, then we bring our prospects up

[Wedge]

If I'm not mistaken, at the time Olivo (whom I have a jersey for and shed a tear when I heard he got traded) was batting .270 with 7 HRs and something like 35 RBIs through like 70 games, with a cannon for an arm.  How is that not MLB ready?

 

This is true, it appeared at the time that he was on track for a very solid career as a hitting catcher. However, I do not think that one could argue that he established himself at a certain level that many fans had put him at. He had a nice start to 2004, but was only .211 in 2002 in limited action and .237 in 2003. I guess I'd consider Olivo a prospect in that situation because while he had been performing well for a decent stretch, he had not done it over an extended period. While he had that nice stretch to open 2004, he was still an unknown commodity: his "standard" performance could have been higher or lower. Without a solid foundation of information and statistics, we don't know how Olivo "should" perform. Thus, he is a prospect... hence the AAAA moniker I gave him.

 

It's similar logic that drove up the price of Adrian Beltre. Over his career, he's a .273 hitter, which isn't bad. However, he has a .334 year in a contract year and gets a 11.5 million dollar deal. Now his .241 average is being made out to be a disappointment, which isn't true. It's more of a statistical correction to the outstanding year he had had prior. If you were expecting a .334 hitter, then you were fooling yourself.

 

The exception I'd say is a guy like Contreras. You have a pretty good idea of what he's going to do, BUT he has a legitimate correctable flaw (tipping pitches), which can lead to improved performance.

 

EDIT: You asked how he was not major league ready. Well, he was. He appeared to have the tools to be a good major league player, but still needed time to demonstrate that he could succeed consistently at the MLB level.

Edited May 13, 2005 by Wedge

[qwerty]

Olivo cannot hit right handers and is not good defensively. What else is there to really talk about?

[sircaffey]

I don't know that he will but Mo Olivo sorta hurts your argument.

 

I said major league talent...Olivo doesn't have it. Major league potential, yes...Major league talent is not something he was or is yet.

 

I guess I worded it incorrectly. KW will not move an important piece of the so called puzzle to get another piece of the puzzle. If Contreras is still pitching well come the deadline, I think there is a slim to zero chance KW moves him without getting a SP of the same quality in return, which is unlikely. KW loves the pitching staff and to trade from it doesn't seem likely...

Edited May 13, 2005 by sircaffey