What to do with Shingo

[DBAHO]

DBAHO , you need to take a trip here to chicago. You will understand why we are so hungry to win now.  No more debates with scubby fans  at school, work, family events. You really need to be here

I take your point. You guys really want to win now, and I don't blame you. I'm just looking out for the future because I don't want us to be in the bottom half of this division (although I don't think that's going to happen).

 

A team to look at through all of this is Minny. Now they haven't really made any big deals at the deadline (remember last year Kubel for Benson), and they keep winning the division. Joe Mauer, Jason Bartlett, Jesse Crain and Justin Morneau show how important it is to have good, young players. Gives you so much more flexibility with the makeup of your team.

[DBAHO]

Liar.

Excuse me, at least I didn't bomb out all the time.

[Jabroni]

I take your point. You guys really want to win now, and I don't blame you. I'm just looking out for the future because I don't want us to be in the bottom half of this division (although I don't think that's going to happen).

 

A team to look at through all of this is Minny. Now they haven't really made any big deals at the deadline (remember last year Kubel for Benson), and they keep winning the division. Joe Mauer, Jason Bartlett, Jesse Crain and Justin Morneau show how important it is to have good, young players. Gives you so much more flexibility with the makeup of your team.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And they keep losing in the playoffs to the Yankees because they don't have the money to make a big move at the deadline for another starting pitcher. Their rotation doesn't get it done in the playoffs but they can't make a move because they are a small payroll organization. We have the money to make a move for what we need and I would be pissed if we didn't.

Edited May 11, 2005 by Jabroni

[rangercal]

I take your point. You guys really want to win now, and I don't blame you. I'm just looking out for the future because I don't want us to be in the bottom half of this division (although I don't think that's going to happen).

 

A team to look at through all of this is Minny. Now they haven't really made any big deals at the deadline (remember last year Kubel for Benson), and they keep winning the division. Joe Mauer, Jason Bartlett, Jesse Crain and Justin Morneau show how important it is to have good, young players. Gives you so much more flexibility with the makeup of your team.

Im not content with just being competitive. It seems the twins are. (they really can't afford to make mistakes though, being almost contracted and all)

We have been an above .500 team almost every year since 90. It is getting old on me.

[DBAHO]

And they keep losing in the playoffs to the Yankees because they don't have the money to make a big move at the deadline for another starting pitcher.  Their rotation doesn't get it done in the playoffs but they can't make a move because they are a small payroll organization.  We have the money to make a move for what we need and I would be pissed if we didn't.

Their starting rotation isn't good enough? Would Kris Benson have been an upgrade over their 3rd starter Carlos Silva? Santana and Radke is a pretty damn good combo to have in the playoffs. They just haven't scored enough runs really.

[rangercal]

Their starting rotation isn't good enough? Would Kris Benson have been an upgrade over their 3rd starter Carlos Silva? Santana and Radke is a pretty damn good combo to have in the playoffs. They just haven't scored enough runs really.

They could have went after Garcia before we did.....

[Jabroni]

Im not content with  just being competitive.  It seems the twins are. (they really can't afford to make mistakes though, being almost contracted and all)

We have been an above .500 team almost every year since 90.  It is getting old on me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is EXACTLY why prospects shouldn't mean much to Sox fans. How long do you want to come in 2nd place? Being a winning team is fine but in the end, does it really mean anything if you don't even make it to the playoffs? Nope.

[Jabroni]

Their starting rotation isn't good enough? Would Kris Benson have been an upgrade over their 3rd starter Carlos Silva? Santana and Radke is a pretty damn good combo to have in the playoffs. They just haven't scored enough runs really.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why do the Twins lose in the playoffs? Because they only have 2 really good starters when it comes down to it. You need 4 really good starters in the playoffs. That's why we would have a better chance in the playoffs than them if we could only make it there.

 

Buehrle

Garcia

El Duque

Garland

Edited May 11, 2005 by Jabroni

[rangercal]

This is also on the line: If we win the 2005 World Series. Consider us a Big Market club again. The fans will show like they did in the early to mid 90's. The attendence issue would be dead. I firmly believe that. To me that is the BIG picture.

Edited May 11, 2005 by rangercal

[Jabroni]

This is also on the line:  If we win the 2005 World Series. Consider us a Big Market club again. The fans will show like the did in the early to mid 90's. The attendence issue would be dead. I firmly believe that. To me that is the BIG picture.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Another good point. If we did win the WS (*knocks on wood*) and traded our best prospects to get there, would it matter? It wouldn't matter at all because we won but it also wouldn't matter because the added revenue would allow us to just sign good free agents to replace the position players that we lost.

[YASNY]

Why do the Twins make the playoffs?

 

--- Because they always have good young productive prospects they can bring up and replace guys with when needed.

 

Why do the Twins always lose in the playoffs?

 

--- Because they can't afford to get the star player to get you over the hump.

 

Looks to me like if we keep our good prospects, we'll have the flexibility and the cash to get those star players. That's an advantage we have over the Twins that we haven't put to use as of yet. We've traded our kids and haven't built from within very much. Time to start doing that, then we can buy the missing pieces because young talent is also cheap talent.

[rangercal]

Why do the Twins make the playoffs?

 

--- Because they always have good young productive prospects they can bring up and replace guys with when needed. 

 

Why do the Twins always lose in the playoffs?

 

--- Because they can't afford to get the star player to get you over the hump.

 

Looks to me like if we keep our good prospects, we'll have the flexibility and the cash to get those star players.  That's an advantage we have over the Twins that we haven't put to use as of yet.  We've traded our kids and haven't built from within very much.  Time to start doing that, then we can buy the missing pieces because young talent is also cheap talent.

Are you saying that maybe with the help of our prospects , we can be a playoff team for the upcoming years? That's a gamble too.

Either way there are no guarantees. If we keep them, or trade them.

[Jabroni]

Are you saying that maybe with the help of our prospects , we can be a playoff team for the upcoming years?  That's a gamble too.

Either way there are no guarantees.  If we keep them, or trade them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bingo...

 

Good, established talent (i.e. Billy Wagner) > prospects (i.e. Gio Gonzalez)

 

Do you know if Gio Gonzalez is going to be a stud in the majors? Nope.

Do you know what you are going to get from Billy Wagner? Yep.

Edited May 11, 2005 by Jabroni

[rangercal]

Bingo...

 

Good, established talent (i.e. Billy Wagner) > prospects (i.e. Gio Gonzalez)

 

Do you know if Gio Gonzalez is going to be a stud in the majors?  Nope.

Do you know what you are going to get from Billy Wagner?  Yep.

Its always a gamble. How high were we on Royce Ring, Corwine Malone, Kris Honel, Joe Borchard? Prospects flop all the time.

[YASNY]

Bingo...

 

Good, established talent (i.e. Billy Wagner) > prospects (i.e. Gio Gonzalez)

 

Do you know if Gio Gonzalez is going to be a stud in the majors?  Nope.

Do you know what you are going to get from Billy Wagner?  Yep.

 

No, you don't know what you are going to get from Wagner. Based on what? His record? See Billy Koch.

[rangercal]

No, you don't know what you are going to get from Wagner.  Based on what? His record?  See Billy Koch.

It is a better chance he will be in the same form aquiring him at mid-season rather than after the off season. Wagner is more predictable than any prospect, especially getting him at mid-season.

[Jabroni]

No, you don't know what you are going to get from Wagner.  Based on what? His record?  See Billy Koch.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So Wagner isn't more of a sure thing than Gio Gonzalez? Come on...

Edited May 11, 2005 by Jabroni

[rangercal]

So Wagner isn't more of a sure thing than Gio Gonzalez?  Come on...

see: Royce Ring, Corwine Malone, Kris Honel, Joe Borchard

[rangercal]

Name 10 people from this list that you would not trade to give you a chance at a WS.

 

 

 

SPRING TRAINING's 2000 Top 100 Prospects

 

Rank Team Name Pos Birth B T

1 St. Louis Rick Ankiel LHP 7-19-79 L L

2 Chicago Cubs Corey Patterson OF 8-13-79 L R

3 San Diego Sean Burroughs 3B 9-12-80 L R

4 Philadelphia Pat Burrell 1B-OF 10-10-76 R R

5 Texas Ruben Mateo OF 2-10-78 R R

6 Seattle Ryan Anderson LHP 7-12-79 L L

7 New York Yankees Nick Johnson 1B 9-19-78 L L

8 Anaheim Ramon Ortiz RHP 3-23-76 R R

9 Toronto Vernon Wells OF 12-8-78 R R

10 New York Yankees Alfonso Soriano SS 1-7-78 R R

11 Florida Brad Penny RHP 5-24-78 R R

12 Chicago White Sox Kip Wells RHP 4-21-77 R R

13 Baltimore Matt Riley LHP 8-02-79 L L

14 Pittsburgh Chad Hermansen OF 9-10-77 R R

15 Arizona John Patterson RHP 1-30-78 R R

16 Cincinnati Travis Dawkins SS 5-12-79 R R

17 Texas Francisco Cordero RHP 8-11-77 R R

18 Arizona Jack Cust OF 1-16-79 L R

19 Los Angeles Chin-Feng Chen OF 10-28-77 R R

20 Florida Abraham Nunez OF 2-5-80 S R

21 Tampa Bay Josh Hamilton OF 5-21-81 L L

22 Colorado Ben Petrick C 4-7-77 R R

23 Montreal Milton Bradley OF 4-15-78 S R

24 Atlanta Rafael Furcal SS 8-24-80 S R

25 Florida Julio Ramirez OF 8-10-77 R R

26 Oakland Mark Mulder LHP 8-05-77 L L

27 Florida Josh Beckett RHP 1-22-81 R R

28 Toronto Felipe Lopez SS 5-12-80 S R

29 Boston Dernell Stenson 1B 6-17-78 L L

30 Montreal Tony Armas RHP 4-29-78 R R

31 Houston Wilfredo Rodriguez LHP 3-20-79 L L

32 Cleveland Russell Branyan 3B 12-19-75 L R

33 Atlanta George Lombard OF 9-14-75 L R

34 New York Yankees Ed Yarnall LHP 12-04-75 L L

35 Minnesota Michael Restovich OF 1-3-79 R R

36 New York Yankees D'Angelo Jimenez SS 12-21-77 S R

37 Kansas City Kyle Snyder RHP 9-09-77 S R

38 Chicago White Sox Joe Crede 3B 4-26-78 R R

39 Kansas City Dee Brown OF 3-27-78 L R

40 Detroit Eric Munson 1B 10-3-77 L R

41 Los Angeles Eric Gagne RHP 1-07-76 R R

42 Oakland Adam Piatt 3B 2-8-76 R R

43 New York Mets Alex Escobar OF 9-6-78 R R

44 Minnesota Michael Cuddyer 3B 3-27-79 R R

45 Milwaukee Nickolas Neugebauer RHP 7-15-80 R R

46 Boston Adam Everett SS 2-6-77 R R

47 Baltimore Jayson Werth C 5-20-79 R R

48 Florida A.J. Burnett RHP 1-03-77 R R

49 Cincinnati Rob Bell RHP 1-17-77 R R

50 Montreal Peter Bergeron OF 11-9-77 L R

51 Oakland Chad Harville RHP 9-16-76 R R

52 Cincinnati Ben Broussard OF 9-24-76 L L

53 Texas Mike Lamb 3B 8-9-75 L R

54 Oakland Barry Zito LHP 5-13-78 L L

55 Chicago White Sox Aaron Rowand OF 8-29-77 R R

56 Atlanta Marcus Giles 2B 5-18-78 R R

57 Oakland Jesus Colome RHP 3-23-79 R R

58 Kansas City Mark Quinn OF 5-21-74 R R

59 Atlanta Jason Marquis RHP 8-21-78 L R

60 Tampa Bay Jason Standridge RHP 11-09-78 R R

61 Boston Wilton Veras 3B 1-19-78 R R

62 St. Louis Chad Hutchinson RHP 2-21-77 R R

63 Florida Pablo Ozuna 2B 8-25-78 R R

64 Baltimore Darnell McDonald OF 11-17-78 R R

65 Cleveland C.C. Sabathia LHP 7-21-80 L L

66 Texas Carlos Pena 1B 5-17-78 L L

67 Montreal Ted Lilly LHP 1-04-76 L L

68 Cincinnati Adam Dunn OF 11-9-79 L R

69 Cleveland Danys Baez RHP 9-10-77 R R

70 Colorado Choo Freeman OF 10-20-79 R R

71 San Diego Vince Faison OF 1-22-81 L R

72 New York Yankees Wily Mo Pena OF 1-23-82 R R

73 Chicago White Sox Jon Garland RHP 9-27-79 R R

74 Seattle Carlos Guillen INF 9-30-75 S R

75 Florida Chip Ambres OF 12-19-79 R R

76 Colorado Jason Jennings RHP 7-17-78 L R

77 St. Louis Adam Kennedy INF 1-10-76 L R

78 Tampa Bay Matt White RHP 8-13-78 R R

79 Chicago Cubs Hee Seop Choi 1B 3-16-79 L L

80 Seattle Ryan Christianson C 4-21-81 R R

81 Toronto Cesar Izturis SS 2-10-80 S R

82 Chicago White Sox Aaron Myette RHP 9-26-77 R R

83 Kansas City Jeffrey Austin RHP 10-19-76 R R

84 Toronto John Sneed RHP 6-30-76 L R

85 Detroit Javier Cardona C 9-15-75 R R

86 Cincinnati Alejandro Diaz OF 7-9-78 R R

87 Florida Wes Anderson RHP 9-10-79 R R

88 Houston Aaron McNeal 1B 4-28-78 R R

89 Atlanta Luis Rivera RHP 6-21-78 R R

90 Pittsburgh J.J. Davis OF 10-25-78 R R

91 Boston Steve Lomasney C 8-29-77 R R

92 New York Yankees Jackson Melian OF 1-7-80 R R

93 San Diego Adam Eaton RHP 11-23-77 R R

94 Baltimore Calvin Pickering 1B 9-29-76 L L

95 San Diego Wiklenman Gonzalez C 5-17-74 R R

96 Houston Eric Ireland RHP 3-11-77 R R

97 Pittsburgh Rico Washington C-3B 5-30-78 L R

98 Los Angeles Randey Dorame LHP 1-23-79 L L

99 San Francisco Kurt Ainsworth RHP 9-09-78 R R

100 Seattle Kazuhiro Sasaki RHP 2-22-68 R R

[rangercal]

(even if you can name 10, see my point) there are no guarantees

[Jabroni]

Rick Ankiel just completely shoots the argument in our favor.

Edited May 11, 2005 by Jabroni

[rangercal]

Rick Ankiel just completely shoots the argument in our favor.

well he's a position player now. So he may have value now

[YASNY]

So Wagner isn't more of a sure thing than Gio Gonzalez?  Come on...

 

I didn't say that. Just used the Koch example to point out that things can backfire .... badly. I'm not even saying you are wrong. Hell, I've used the same arguments you are presenting now.

 

What I'm thinking is that KW has tried this approach in past, without success. I'm thinking he's taking a slower steadier long term approach, than he has done before.

[White Sox Josh]

"We beat ourselves," manager Ozzie Guillen said after employing four relievers who collectively struggled after the departure of starter Jose Contreras. "We walked too many people. Walks always will kill you on the big-league level. … You make people hit the ball. We didn't hold the lead [because of walks], and that's why we lost. It's not because Shingo gave up the home run."

[rangercal]

Oh so what ever Ozzie says is true? :headshake

 

 

 

 

Watch the replay . Shingo pitched an 80 mile per hour beachball right down the middle of the plate.

 

 

 

It is not shingo's fault entirely. I never said that. I don't think anyone did. The point is , he should not be in that type of situation until he proves he can handle less pressure-filled roles.