clujer420 Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 After seeing Jon Garland once again have a disappointing start (so far he's had 2 bad ones, 1 mediocre one, and 1 good one), I have to believe that when Dan Wright is healthy, Jon needs to be the guy sent down to the minors. He's young, yes, but he's been with us for like 4 years now, and I think it's about time he gets a wake up call. He seems to not understand how to pitch, and maybe getting shipped to AAA will make him figure it out real fast. This team, in order to be a legitimate contender for the WS, needs to have 5 starters that are going to give you a reasonable chance to win every day. Of course you're not going to win every day, but when your SP gives you a performance like Jon gave today, you'll NEVER win. Granted, the Sox had plenty of opportunities to put some runs on the board early, but when you give up as many runs as Jon did to a relatively poor offensive team, there is a problem. Jon has the tools to be a solid major leaguer, and I'm by no means giving up on him -- but he just needs to get his s*** together while it's early in the season, and not let this high ERA carry into the summer months where he'll get ROCKED. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 After seeing Jon Garland once again have a disappointing start (so far he's had 2 bad ones, 1 mediocre one, and 1 good one), I have to believe that when Dan Wright is healthy, Jon needs to be the guy sent down to the minors. He's young, yes, but he's been with us for like 4 years now, and I think it's about time he gets a wake up call. He seems to not understand how to pitch, and maybe getting shipped to AAA will make him figure it out real fast. This team, in order to be a legitimate contender for the WS, needs to have 5 starters that are going to give you a reasonable chance to win every day. Of course you're not going to win every day, but when your SP gives you a performance like Jon gave today, you'll NEVER win. Granted, the Sox had plenty of opportunities to put some runs on the board early, but when you give up as many runs as Jon did to a relatively poor offensive team, there is a problem. Jon has the tools to be a solid major leaguer, and I'm by no means giving up on him -- but he just needs to get his s*** together while it's early in the season, and not let this high ERA carry into the summer months where he'll get ROCKED. we couldnt send jon to the minors w/o him clearing waivers..and somebody would claim him...but a ticket to join gary glover in long relief might be the wake up call garland needs..cant have a guy with a plus 7 era in the rotation...id give him 3 more starts...thats about the time DW should be back...if he is still throwing home run balls then its the bullpen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clujer420 Posted April 22, 2003 Author Share Posted April 22, 2003 we couldnt send jon to the minors w/o him clearing waivers..and somebody would claim him...but a ticket to join gary glover in long relief might be the wake up call garland needs Good point, never thought about the waivers aspect. And I agree, send him to the pen. Who will we send down, then? Because we'll have to clear a roster space to make room for Danny, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 we couldnt send jon to the minors w/o him clearing waivers..and somebody would claim him...but a ticket to join gary glover in long relief might be the wake up call garland needs Good point, never thought about the waivers aspect. And I agree, send him to the pen. Who will we send down, then? Because we'll have to clear a roster space to make room for Danny, right? i think with miguel showing us he can handle the everyday ctacher chires we could send down paul..there is a good chance he would clear waivers anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clujer420 Posted April 22, 2003 Author Share Posted April 22, 2003 i think with miguel showing us he can handle the everyday ctacher chires we could send down paul..there is a good chance he would clear waivers anyway I knew there was a reason we kept Paul on the roster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonkeyKongerko Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 Yeah, and Josh Paul not clearing waivers would not be the worst thing to happen to the White Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 Yeah, and Josh Paul not clearing waivers would not be the worst thing to happen to the White Sox. It would look a whole lot worse when Sandy has his annual knee problems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 we couldnt send jon to the minors w/o him clearing waivers..and somebody would claim him...but a ticket to join gary glover in long relief might be the wake up call garland needs Are you sure about that? I think Jon has only only used one or two options in 2001 and maybe 2000 (not sure when he was put on the 40-man). Surely he wasn't on the 40-man in 1999 when he started at W-S. If I recall correctly, he was placed on the 40-man in 2000 but didn't he end the season in Chicago? Did he get sent down after he ws promoted to Chicago? He had a rehab start for Birmingham, but that does not count as an option. In 2001, he split between Chicago and Charlotte, so there was an option there. He was in the Majors all of 2002 so no option there. Unless there is something else to the option rules that i am missing, Garland has options to spare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 Yeah, and Josh Paul not clearing waivers would not be the worst thing to happen to the White Sox. I wholeheartedly agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 we couldnt send jon to the minors w/o him clearing waivers..and somebody would claim him...but a ticket to join gary glover in long relief might be the wake up call garland needs Are you sure about that? I think Jon has only only used one or two options in 2001 and maybe 2000 (not sure when he was put on the 40-man). Surely he wasn't on the 40-man in 1999 when he started at W-S. If I recall correctly, he was placed on the 40-man in 2000 but didn't he end the season in Chicago? Did he get sent down after he ws promoted to Chicago? He had a rehab start for Birmingham, but that does not count as an option. In 2001, he split between Chicago and Charlotte, so there was an option there. He was in the Majors all of 2002 so no option there. Unless there is something else to the option rules that i am missing, Garland has options to spare. wasnt '00 his first option year??...'01 his 2nd and '02 his 3rd??...we can send him up and down as many times as we want in those three years..options are years ,not individual times you go up and down..if that was the case josh paul would have been out of options in '01 the question is since he didnt start the '00 on the roster but was added later in the year does the '00 season count as an option year....i could be wrong on that counting as an option year...if it doesnt then yes job has one more year left garland signed and played in the cubs org in '97...so this is his 6th year in pro ball..again 6 years total puts a guy out of options too..but again does 97 count towards an option year since he played short season ball??....jon is definately ina gray area as far as my understanding of how all the diffferent types of options work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 we couldnt send jon to the minors w/o him clearing waivers..and somebody would claim him...but a ticket to join gary glover in long relief might be the wake up call garland needs Are you sure about that? I think Jon has only only used one or two options in 2001 and maybe 2000 (not sure when he was put on the 40-man). Surely he wasn't on the 40-man in 1999 when he started at W-S. If I recall correctly, he was placed on the 40-man in 2000 but didn't he end the season in Chicago? Did he get sent down after he ws promoted to Chicago? He had a rehab start for Birmingham, but that does not count as an option. In 2001, he split between Chicago and Charlotte, so there was an option there. He was in the Majors all of 2002 so no option there. Unless there is something else to the option rules that i am missing, Garland has options to spare. wasnt '00 his first option year??...'01 his 2nd and '02 his 3rd??...we can send him up and down as many times as we want in those three years..options are years ,not individual times you go up and down..if that was the case josh paul would have been out of options in '01 the question is since he didnt start the '00 on the roster but was added later in the year does the '00 season count as an option year....i could be wrong on that counting as an option year...if it doesnt then yes job has one more year left garland signed and played in the cubs org in '97...so this is his 6th year in pro ball..again 6 years total puts a guy out of options too..but again does 97 count towards an option year since he played short season ball??....jon is definately ina gray area as far as my understanding of how all the diffferent types of options work Options only count once a player is put on the 40-man roster and when they are sent down to the Minors. So a player can be optioned to AAA in one year, then stay on the Major legue roster for 3 straight years and then get sent back down and it will still only be his 2nd option. The sixth year also does not apply. Six years applies to Minor League players who are not on the Major League 40-man roster. Once protected on the 40-man roster, The three option rule applies. You are correct that you can send a player up and down between the Majors and Minors in a given year as many times as you want and it only counts as one option. If a player spends the whole season in the Majors, no option is charged. So in Garland's case he should only have one or two options depending on when he was placed on the 40-man roster and if he was sent back to Charlotte after being promoted to the Sox in 2000 (I don't recall). He definitely used an option in 2001. He did not pitch in the Miinors in 2002, so no option used there. Unless I am missing something, then he has options left. The bigger question is what kind of contract does he have? If he has a guaranteed contract, then will the Sox want to send him down rather than Stewart who would be on a split contract (AAA pay if sent down)? If he still has a split contract then it would be less of an issue. But does money come into play if deciding between Garland and Stewart? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 This is a question not related to this issue, but could the Sox phony up an injury for Paul to put him on the DL and give him a rehab assignment while we call an extra pitcher up for a short time? Thats if KW doesn't want to lose Paul and I don't necessarily blame him since we don't know if Alomar stays healthy. Still, I'd love Paul to be able to get to AAA so we had him there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 This is a question not related to this issue, but could the Sox phony up an injury for Paul to put him on the DL and give him a rehab assignment while we call an extra pitcher up for a short time? Thats if KW doesn't want to lose Paul and I don't necessarily blame him since we don't know if Alomar stays healthy. Still, I'd love Paul to be able to get to AAA so we had him there. i may be the only who really wants this kid to do good. i mean he is a local kid and i want to see them succeed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 This is a question not related to this issue, but could the Sox phony up an injury for Paul to put him on the DL and give him a rehab assignment while we call an extra pitcher up for a short time? Thats if KW doesn't want to lose Paul and I don't necessarily blame him since we don't know if Alomar stays healthy. Still, I'd love Paul to be able to get to AAA so we had him there. I don't think the players union would allow that. It happens in the Minors, but I don't think it is realistic in this scenario. The Sox just need to send JP down and gamble that he will clear waivers. If he doesn't, it would not be the end of the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 This is a question not related to this issue, but could the Sox phony up an injury for Paul to put him on the DL and give him a rehab assignment while we call an extra pitcher up for a short time? Thats if KW doesn't want to lose Paul and I don't necessarily blame him since we don't know if Alomar stays healthy. Still, I'd love Paul to be able to get to AAA so we had him there. I don't think the players union would allow that. It happens in the Minors, but I don't think it is realistic in this scenario. The Sox just need to send JP down and gamble that he will clear waivers. If he doesn't, it would not be the end of the world. Plus, if he doesn't then they could just take him back and not send him down. Either way the Sox should just give it a shot and see if he'd get through. I think they were hoping they could trade him for a catcher with options. If I were Ken Williams that would be my plan because it is a complete waste carrying three catchers. Unlike most I have no problem with Paul, its just I'd rather have Ginter up here. I wouldn't want Harris or Borchard here unless they were going to get regular at bats. No sense in letting them sit on the bench. Harris is working on his new approach at the plate and that takes at bats, while Borchard is working with the adjustments he made to his swing during the summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clujer420 Posted April 22, 2003 Author Share Posted April 22, 2003 This is a question not related to this issue, but could the Sox phony up an injury for Paul to put him on the DL and give him a rehab assignment while we call an extra pitcher up for a short time? Thats if KW doesn't want to lose Paul and I don't necessarily blame him since we don't know if Alomar stays healthy. Still, I'd love Paul to be able to get to AAA so we had him there. I don't think the players union would allow that. It happens in the Minors, but I don't think it is realistic in this scenario. The Sox just need to send JP down and gamble that he will clear waivers. If he doesn't, it would not be the end of the world. I wish the NBA had as strong a union as MLB (they have possibly the strongest union in America). People are put on the IR all the time in the NBA when they're perfectly healthy. I think that's BS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 I wish the NBA had as strong a union as MLB (they have possibly the strongest union in America). People are put on the IR all the time in the NBA when they're perfectly healthy. I think that's BS. The NBA is exactly where I got this idea from. They always phony injuries to the point that they might as well just expand the rosters and get rid of the IL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 I wish the NBA had as strong a union as MLB (they have possibly the strongest union in America). People are put on the IR all the time in the NBA when they're perfectly healthy. I think that's BS. The NBA is exactly where I got this idea from. They always phony injuries to the point that they might as well just expand the rosters and get rid of the IL. I wish the MLP Player's Union was as weak as the NBA's. The MLBPA is way too strong and causes too many problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 I wish the NBA had as strong a union as MLB (they have possibly the strongest union in America). People are put on the IR all the time in the NBA when they're perfectly healthy. I think that's BS. The NBA is exactly where I got this idea from. They always phony injuries to the point that they might as well just expand the rosters and get rid of the IL. I wish the MLP Player's Union was as weak as the NBA's. The MLBPA is way too strong and causes too many problems. Such as steroids and all the supplements that major leaguers can use. I'm glad that minor leaguers don't use it, but its kind of unfair to them considering that they can't cheat, while the major leaguers that they are trying to beat out for jobs can cheat. I just hope that the minor leaguers now learn to play without using steroids (Not saying they all use them, but I'm sure some do. If I were in their shoes I'd be trying everything possible to make it to the show) and that they will continue to not use them once they reach the majors and slowly they will root the problem out. But with all the big contracts (Thank goodness it seems like their won't be near as many huge contracts anymore) out there, players will always have reason to use steroids and others until they are finally tested for them and suspended if caught. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 This is a question not related to this issue, but could the Sox phony up an injury for Paul to put him on the DL and give him a rehab assignment while we call an extra pitcher up for a short time? Thats if KW doesn't want to lose Paul and I don't necessarily blame him since we don't know if Alomar stays healthy. Still, I'd love Paul to be able to get to AAA so we had him there. I don't think the players union would allow that. It happens in the Minors, but I don't think it is realistic in this scenario. The Sox just need to send JP down and gamble that he will clear waivers. If he doesn't, it would not be the end of the world. I wish the NBA had as strong a union as MLB (they have possibly the strongest union in America). People are put on the IR all the time in the NBA when they're perfectly healthy. I think that's BS. they allow this to happen b/c it means that a middle of the road player will be getting paid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 This is a question not related to this issue, but could the Sox phony up an injury for Paul to put him on the DL and give him a rehab assignment while we call an extra pitcher up for a short time? Thats if KW doesn't want to lose Paul and I don't necessarily blame him since we don't know if Alomar stays healthy. Still, I'd love Paul to be able to get to AAA so we had him there. I don't think the players union would allow that. It happens in the Minors, but I don't think it is realistic in this scenario. The Sox just need to send JP down and gamble that he will clear waivers. If he doesn't, it would not be the end of the world. I wish the NBA had as strong a union as MLB (they have possibly the strongest union in America). People are put on the IR all the time in the NBA when they're perfectly healthy. I think that's BS. it happened last year with toad ritchie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 This is a question not related to this issue, but could the Sox phony up an injury for Paul to put him on the DL and give him a rehab assignment while we call an extra pitcher up for a short time? Thats if KW doesn't want to lose Paul and I don't necessarily blame him since we don't know if Alomar stays healthy. Still, I'd love Paul to be able to get to AAA so we had him there. I don't think the players union would allow that. It happens in the Minors, but I don't think it is realistic in this scenario. The Sox just need to send JP down and gamble that he will clear waivers. If he doesn't, it would not be the end of the world. I wish the NBA had as strong a union as MLB (they have possibly the strongest union in America). People are put on the IR all the time in the NBA when they're perfectly healthy. I think that's BS. it happened last year with toad ritchie What did putting Ritchie on DL achieve? Not letting him get 20 losses? .... Let's see. They put him on the DL, then he pitches 2 innings or so, before walking as a FA. They could have just released him to prevent the 20 loss thing. But, they couldn't release him if he wasn't injured. A fake injury just makes no sense in this scenario. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 This is a question not related to this issue, but could the Sox phony up an injury for Paul to put him on the DL and give him a rehab assignment while we call an extra pitcher up for a short time? Thats if KW doesn't want to lose Paul and I don't necessarily blame him since we don't know if Alomar stays healthy. Still, I'd love Paul to be able to get to AAA so we had him there. I don't think the players union would allow that. It happens in the Minors, but I don't think it is realistic in this scenario. The Sox just need to send JP down and gamble that he will clear waivers. If he doesn't, it would not be the end of the world. I wish the NBA had as strong a union as MLB (they have possibly the strongest union in America). People are put on the IR all the time in the NBA when they're perfectly healthy. I think that's BS. it happened last year with toad ritchie What did putting Ritchie on DL achieve? Not letting him get 20 losses? .... Let's see. They put him on the DL, then he pitches 2 innings or so, before walking as a FA. They could have just released him to prevent the 20 loss thing. But, they couldn't release him if he wasn't injured. A fake injury just makes no sense in this scenario. they might have been trying to work out a trade..wanted him off the roster so they put him on the DL so they could get his replacement up here...but ritchie pitched so bad that no contender ,no matter how bad they needed a veteran 5th starter would bite..so they just released him i like really sure thats what it was...like 90%... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 That late in the season? Did he clear waivers? It was after the trade deadline. This still makes no logcal sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 That late in the season? Did he clear waivers? It was after the trade deadline. This still makes no logcal sense to me. you can trade after the deadline if the guy clears waivers.. what was wrong with ritchie other than the fact that he sucked??..he never lost velocity or complained about being hurt unitl he went on the DL...every pitcher who approaches briam kingman"dom" goes on the DL...when ritchie went on he was still on pace for 21 loses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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