Horrible Abuses in Bagram, 2000 page file reveals

[KipWellsFan]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/20/internat...artner=homepage

 

The story of Mr. Dilawar's brutal death at the Bagram Collection Point - and that of another detainee, Habibullah, who died there six days earlier in December 2002 - emerge from a nearly 2,000-page confidential file of the Army's criminal investigation into the case, a copy of which was obtained by The New York Times.

 

Like a narrative counterpart to the digital images from Abu Ghraib, the Bagram file depicts young, poorly trained soldiers in repeated incidents of abuse. The harsh treatment, which has resulted in criminal charges against seven soldiers, went well beyond the two deaths.

 

In some instances, testimony shows, it was directed or carried out by interrogators to extract information. In others, it was punishment meted out by military police guards. Sometimes, the torment seems to have been driven by little more than boredom or cruelty, or both.

 

Also an interactive report there

 

New York Times making a bold move.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

FOIA scans available on this site of some of the many reports if anybody is interested.

 

http://www.thememoryblog.org

[FlaSoxxJim]

...if anybody is interested.

 

http://www.thememoryblog.org

Not very likely, I'm afraid.

 

[anxiously awaiting the "irresponsible journalism" battle cry from thos who think it's better that this stuff doesn't come to light...]

[YASNY]

Not very likely, I'm afraid.

 

[anxiously awaiting the "irresponsible journalism" battle cry from thos who think it's better that this stuff doesn't come to light...]

 

This is different. This should be brought to light.

[kapkomet]

The difference is that this is well documented and not a heresay source.

[southsider2k5]

The difference is that this is well documented and not a heresay source.

 

We have a winner!

[sec159row2]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/20/internat...artner=homepage

Also an interactive report there

 

New York Times making a bold move.

 

nuke 'em all

[FlaSoxxJim]

We have a winner!

The comment is not just in reference to Gitmo/Newsweek - althoughthough I agree that since former interrogators had corroborated the Quran abuse there is likely a real story here, Newsweek's lack of due dillegence notwithsstanding.

 

There are plenty of people who think the media should have minded it's own business instead of exposing Abu Ghraib, physical Gitmo abuses, etc., and see the media as being the real problem. They'll feel the same here. Amazing, but not at all unexpected in this era where the President has decided that if we don't see footage of the caskets coming back home we'll continue to think everything is going smoothly with the war.

[southsider2k5]

The comment is not just in reference to Gitmo/Newsweek - althoughthough I agree that since former interrogators had corroborated the Quran abuse there is likely a real story here, Newsweek's lack of due dillegence notwithsstanding.

 

There are plenty of people who think the media should have minded it's own business instead of exposing Abu Ghraib, physical Gitmo abuses, etc., and see the media as being the real problem.  They'll feel the same here.  Amazing, but not at all unexpected in this era where the President has decided that if we don't see footage of the caskets coming back home we'll continue to think everything is going smoothly with the war.

 

The media seems to have no problem minding its business when it comes to showing the good our solidiers are doing in Iraq, Afganistan, and around the world in general. All of our boys and our country is being painted as blood thirsty savages. This is bigger than one parties political agenda, or at least it should be. When was the last time you saw a picture of American's building new roads in Iraq? Or a little girl going to school for the first time in Afganistan? But I'll bet you have seen a picture of Lyndie England in the last month.

 

Yes the media has a role in opening up scandals, as they are the final check and balance of government. But their agenda needs to be bigger than taking down a President. They are daily putting our lives in danger, not just our soldiers. If their were images of Americans saving lives around the world, that might go towards actually showing that the vast majority of American's want the world to be a better place. Instead the media only concentrates on the worst of the worst.

 

Feeling the hate we do from the rest of the world, makes me want to close up shop and say screw the rest of the world. Pull out all of our companies, resources, food, aid companies etc, and let them see how they get along without the great satan. They all hate us, but where is the first place they turn to when they need help? Who is in there saving the lives of Iranians after their huge earthquake? It wasn't the Russians who are selling them the bomb making equiptment they hope to someday use against us I will tell you that much. It is us. The citizens of this country give self-lessly to the rest of the world, more than the rest of the world gives combined, yet we are the evil ones. What does the Muslim world provide for our poor and starving people? Did they offer to send rescue crews and relief aid after all of the hurricanes hit Florida? Nope.

 

I am sick of it. I am sick of being protraying as treating the rest of the world as a doormatt by our own citizens, and having my life put in danger because of it. All because they want to sell a few more newspapers. Hell the reporting of the abuse of American;s, our families mind you, doesn't even get reported as much as the abuse of other people? This same kind of stuff happens in our own prision systems everyday, but are there reports about that? Nope.

 

I am f***ing sick of it all.

[YASNY]

The media seems to have no problem minding its business when it comes to showing the good our solidiers are doing in Iraq, Afganistan, and around the world in general.  All of our boys and our country is being painted as blood thirsty savages.  This is bigger than one parties political agenda, or at least it should be.  When was the last time you saw a picture of American's building new roads in Iraq?  Or a little girl going to school for the first time in Afganistan?  But I'll bet you have seen a picture of Lyndie England in the last month. 

 

Yes the media has a role in opening up scandals, as they are the final check and balance of government.  But their agenda needs to be bigger than taking down a President.  They are daily putting our lives in danger, not just our soldiers.  If their were images of Americans saving lives around the world, that might go towards actually showing that the vast majority of American's want the world to be a better place.  Instead the media only concentrates on the worst of the worst. 

 

Feeling the hate we do from the rest of the world, makes me want to close up shop and say screw the rest of the world.  Pull out all of our companies, resources, food, aid companies etc, and let them see how they get along without the great satan.  They all hate us, but where is the first place they turn to when they need help?  Who is in there saving the lives of Iranians after their huge earthquake?  It wasn't the Russians who are selling them the bomb making equiptment they hope to someday use against us I will tell you that much.  It is us.  The citizens of this country give self-lessly to the rest of the world, more than the rest of the world gives combined, yet we are the evil ones.  What does the Muslim world provide for our poor and starving people?  Did they offer to send rescue crews and relief aid after all of the hurricanes hit Florida?  Nope.

 

I am sick of it.  I am sick of being protraying as treating the rest of the world as a doormatt by our own citizens, and having my life put in danger because of it.  All because they want to sell a few more newspapers.  Hell the reporting of the abuse of American;s, our families mind you,  doesn't even get reported as much as the abuse of other people?  This same kind of stuff happens in our own prision systems everyday, but are there reports about that?  Nope.

 

I am f***ing sick of it all.

 

:standing ovation smilie

[Steff]

The media seems to have no problem minding its business when it comes to showing the good our solidiers are doing in Iraq, Afganistan, and around the world in general.  All of our boys and our country is being painted as blood thirsty savages.  This is bigger than one parties political agenda, or at least it should be.  When was the last time you saw a picture of American's building new roads in Iraq?  Or a little girl going to school for the first time in Afganistan?  But I'll bet you have seen a picture of Lyndie England in the last month. 

 

Yes the media has a role in opening up scandals, as they are the final check and balance of government.  But their agenda needs to be bigger than taking down a President.  They are daily putting our lives in danger, not just our soldiers.  If their were images of Americans saving lives around the world, that might go towards actually showing that the vast majority of American's want the world to be a better place.  Instead the media only concentrates on the worst of the worst. 

 

Feeling the hate we do from the rest of the world, makes me want to close up shop and say screw the rest of the world.  Pull out all of our companies, resources, food, aid companies etc, and let them see how they get along without the great satan.  They all hate us, but where is the first place they turn to when they need help?  Who is in there saving the lives of Iranians after their huge earthquake?  It wasn't the Russians who are selling them the bomb making equiptment they hope to someday use against us I will tell you that much.  It is us.  The citizens of this country give self-lessly to the rest of the world, more than the rest of the world gives combined, yet we are the evil ones.  What does the Muslim world provide for our poor and starving people?  Did they offer to send rescue crews and relief aid after all of the hurricanes hit Florida?  Nope.

 

I am sick of it.  I am sick of being protraying as treating the rest of the world as a doormatt by our own citizens, and having my life put in danger because of it.  All because they want to sell a few more newspapers.  Hell the reporting of the abuse of American;s, our families mind you,  doesn't even get reported as much as the abuse of other people?  This same kind of stuff happens in our own prision systems everyday, but are there reports about that?  Nope.

 

I am f***ing sick of it all.

 

 

[CubKilla]

The media seems to have no problem minding its business when it comes to showing the good our solidiers are doing in Iraq, Afganistan, and around the world in general.  All of our boys and our country is being painted as blood thirsty savages.  This is bigger than one parties political agenda, or at least it should be.  When was the last time you saw a picture of American's building new roads in Iraq?  Or a little girl going to school for the first time in Afganistan?  But I'll bet you have seen a picture of Lyndie England in the last month. 

 

Yes the media has a role in opening up scandals, as they are the final check and balance of government.  But their agenda needs to be bigger than taking down a President.  They are daily putting our lives in danger, not just our soldiers.  If their were images of Americans saving lives around the world, that might go towards actually showing that the vast majority of American's want the world to be a better place.  Instead the media only concentrates on the worst of the worst. 

 

Feeling the hate we do from the rest of the world, makes me want to close up shop and say screw the rest of the world.  Pull out all of our companies, resources, food, aid companies etc, and let them see how they get along without the great satan.  They all hate us, but where is the first place they turn to when they need help?  Who is in there saving the lives of Iranians after their huge earthquake?  It wasn't the Russians who are selling them the bomb making equiptment they hope to someday use against us I will tell you that much.  It is us.  The citizens of this country give self-lessly to the rest of the world, more than the rest of the world gives combined, yet we are the evil ones.  What does the Muslim world provide for our poor and starving people?  Did they offer to send rescue crews and relief aid after all of the hurricanes hit Florida?  Nope.

 

I am sick of it.  I am sick of being protraying as treating the rest of the world as a doormatt by our own citizens, and having my life put in danger because of it.  All because they want to sell a few more newspapers.  Hell the reporting of the abuse of American;s, our families mind you,  doesn't even get reported as much as the abuse of other people?  This same kind of stuff happens in our own prision systems everyday, but are there reports about that?  Nope.

 

I am f***ing sick of it all.

 

Consider the source though. The NY Times is just liberal dreck in the printed form. Someone once said, "misery loves company." That quote can now be modified to, "misery loves company and the media. "

[FlaSoxxJim]

The media seems to have no problem minding its business when it comes to showing the good our solidiers are doing in Iraq, Afganistan, and around the world in general.  All of our boys and our country is being painted as blood thirsty savages.  This is bigger than one parties political agenda, or at least it should be.  When was the last time you saw a picture of American's building new roads in Iraq?  Or a little girl going to school for the first time in Afganistan?  But I'll bet you have seen a picture of Lyndie England in the last month. 

 

Yes the media has a role in opening up scandals, as they are the final check and balance of government.  But their agenda needs to be bigger than taking down a President.  They are daily putting our lives in danger, not just our soldiers.  If their were images of Americans saving lives around the world, that might go towards actually showing that the vast majority of American's want the world to be a better place.  Instead the media only concentrates on the worst of the worst. 

 

Feeling the hate we do from the rest of the world, makes me want to close up shop and say screw the rest of the world.  Pull out all of our companies, resources, food, aid companies etc, and let them see how they get along without the great satan.  They all hate us, but where is the first place they turn to when they need help?  Who is in there saving the lives of Iranians after their huge earthquake?  It wasn't the Russians who are selling them the bomb making equiptment they hope to someday use against us I will tell you that much.  It is us.  The citizens of this country give self-lessly to the rest of the world, more than the rest of the world gives combined, yet we are the evil ones.  What does the Muslim world provide for our poor and starving people?  Did they offer to send rescue crews and relief aid after all of the hurricanes hit Florida?  Nope.

 

I am sick of it.  I am sick of being protraying as treating the rest of the world as a doormatt by our own citizens, and having my life put in danger because of it.  All because they want to sell a few more newspapers.  Hell the reporting of the abuse of American;s, our families mind you,  doesn't even get reported as much as the abuse of other people?  This same kind of stuff happens in our own prision systems everyday, but are there reports about that?  Nope.

 

I am f***ing sick of it all.

 

Did you take the time to read the piece? At eight pages it is long, but it is well worth reading.

 

Nowhere in this piece, nowhere in the earlier Afghan abuse reports, the Abu Ghraib pieces by Hersch or others, or the Citmo pieces is the entire US military being villainized in a way you describe. These are revelations of very specific events involving specific people.

 

As far as the "same kind of stuff happens in our own prison system every day," again I'd like you to read the piece and then see if you still stand by the comment. For one thing, I highly that our own prison system holds American citizens as detainees without specific charges for 15 months and then lets them go with a note saying 'sorry,' and gets away with it. For another, I highly that today somewhere in an American prison an inmate is chained to the ceiling and receiving 100+ kicks to peroneal blows to the leg so a handful of guards can laugh every time he cries out "Oh God!" in pain. If there is such a place in the US prison system let me know which one, because I'll go write the expose' on it and get a Pulitzer.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Consider the source though. The NY Times is just liberal dreck in the printed form. Someone once said, "misery loves company." That quote can now be modified to, "misery loves company and the media. "

Yes, by all means disreagard the story entirely despite the corroborating testimony of those involved and the military investigators, coroners, etc. and dismiss it and anything that appears in the NYT as "just liberal dreck". Brilliant.

[YASNY]

Yes, by all means disreagard the story entirely despite the corroborating testimony of those involved and the military investigators, coroners, etc. and dismiss it and anything that appears in the NYT as "just liberal dreck".  Brilliant.

 

The liberals have an agenda and it's to take this nation down.

The conservatives have an agenda and it's to take this nation down.

I truly believe both statements.

[TheBigHurt35]

This is different.  This should be brought to light.

 

Agreed, this is like Abu Ghraib and very much unlike flushing pages of a book down a toilet.

 

The media seems to have no problem minding its business when it comes to showing the good our solidiers are doing in Iraq, Afganistan, and around the world in general.  All of our boys and our country is being painted as blood thirsty savages.  This is bigger than one parties political agenda, or at least it should be.  When was the last time you saw a picture of American's building new roads in Iraq?  Or a little girl going to school for the first time in Afganistan?  But I'll bet you have seen a picture of Lyndie England in the last month. 

 

Agreed. One would have to be blind or just plain stupid to think that many (and perhaps even most) of the major media outlets aren't pushing an anti-conservative agenda.

 

Yes the media has a role in opening up scandals, as they are the final check and balance of government.

 

Somehow, I don't think that the founding fathers envisioned the media as our fourth branch of government. :headshake

[TheBigHurt35]

For one thing, I highly that our own prison system holds American citizens as detainees without specific charges for 15 months and then lets them go with a note saying 'sorry,' and gets away with it.

 

Terrorists aren't entitled to due process, so comparing their treatment to those of American citizens is ridiculous.

 

Agreed , though, that torturing enemy combatants (even ones that had killed our soldiers and/or innocent civilians) is wrong.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Terrorists aren't entitled to due process.

 

What about cab drivers?

[YASNY]

What about cab drivers?

 

Only if they are American citizens and not terrorists.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Only if they are American citizens and not terrorists.

Sadly, the truth of that paired statement is evident. Not a terrorrist, but also not an American is a combination that doesn't warrant humane treatment apparently.

[YASNY]

Sadly, the truth of that paired statement is evident.  Not a terrorrist, but also not an American is a combination that doesn't warrant humane treatment apparently.

 

Nobody said any f***ing thing about humane treatment. We were talking about due process. Stop putting words in my mouth or twisting my words for your own bulls***.

[TheBigHurt35]

Sadly, the truth of that paired statement is evident.  Not a terrorrist, but also not an American is a combination that doesn't warrant humane treatment apparently.

 

You're confusing the "right to a speedy trial" with "humane treatment." EVERYONE deserves the latter, but those being detained as enemy combatants (it's not like they're jailing people in Afghanistan for parking violations) don't have the right to the former.

[FlaSoxxJim]

You're confusing the "right to a speedy trial" with "humane treatment."  EVERYONE deserves the latter, but those being detained as enemy combatants (it's not like they're jailing people in Afghanistan for parking violations) don't have the right to the former.

Please read the entire NYT story, Hurt. Prior to Dilawar's death most of the interrogators had already been convinced of his innocence. Why then did the brutal "interrogation" continue and why was he not taken to a doctor as he had requested. He told the interrogators he was going to die if he did not receive medical attention and he didn't get any and he was dead the next day.

[YASNY]

Please read the entire NYT story, Hurt.  Prior to Dilawar's death most of the interrogators had already been convinced of his innocence.  Why then did the brutal "interrogation" continue and why was he not taken to a doctor as he had requested.  He told the interrogators he was going to die if he did not receive medical attention and he didn't get any and he was dead the next day.

 

You are twisting again. If I'm not mistaken, we both (BH and I) acknowledged the need for this particular story to be reported.

 

BigHurt, if I am mistaken, I apologize.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

You're confusing the "right to a speedy trial" with "humane treatment."  EVERYONE deserves the latter, but those being detained as enemy combatants (it's not like they're jailing people in Afghanistan for parking violations) don't have the right to the former.

What about the ones here that are being held without charges for years (take Jose Padilla for instance...held for years without being charged at all) If there is so much evidence to convict him -- give him his right to due process and his speedy trial guaranteed by the Constitution.

 

The fun thing about America is that little caveat "Innocent until proven guilty" which makes terms like "potential terrorist" or "potential felon" just biased crap to justify removal of Constitutional protections and civil liberties. Technically, every person could be a potential felon.

 

It is antithetical to the Constitution to have 'preventative detentions' where people are held for long periods of time with no right to counsel, no contact with their families and no charges brought against them in a legal court of law. And yes, this is occurring in the United States. Since I'm on vacation right now, I don't have the texts in front of me but check out "Its a Free Country" which is a look into personal freedoms and civil liberties after 9/11.