Uribe's "foul call"

[Soxbadger]

Not arguing that Lee should not have listened to Uribe.

 

Just that two wrongs do not make a right.

 

My stance is what Uribe did is not deception, and therefore is a low brow play.

 

Not illegal, not against the rules, just low brow.

 

SB

[LosMediasBlancas]

We were sitting right behind the Cubs dugout, which would normally be an awesome line.. but I had Godzilla sitting in front of me. Every way I leaned.. he leaned.

 

By the way.. I failed to mention this but on Saturday I got the look of death from Carlos twice.. once when I asked him "what are you looking at up there...??? " and a second time when I said "does anyone know what marycon means...?" within his earshot.. I forgot who told me to say that but it was priceless. We took my boss and his 6 year old and a group of jerkoffs behind us kept screaming how the "effing umps" were giving the "effing Sox" all the "good calls". They shut the hell up when we took the lead and I offered them tissues.. 

 

Wow, you really went there with 'Maricon". LMFAO, good job Steff!

[Steff]

Not arguing that Lee should not have listened to Uribe.

 

Just that two wrongs do not make a right.

 

My stance is what Uribe did is not deception, and therefore is a low brow play.

 

Not illegal, not against the rules, just low brow.

 

SB

 

 

You mean what he did IS deception..??

[Guest JimH]

SB,

 

If what Uribe did is beneath a first place team, you should read up on some of the Yankee teams of the 40's 50's 60's ... some of the stuff they did was way worse than this.

 

I don't think the White Sox players or Guillen or KW particularly care about some other team getting juiced up over stuff like this. That attitude of "hey, bring it on" is IMO one reason why the White Sox are in 1st place to begin with.

 

As for karma ... I don't particularly believe in it, especially seeing it has been since 1917 if you know what I'm sayin'.

 

On principle I always agree that stuff should be kept in the clubhouse and not the press but in the same breath ... there may be things/events behind the scenes we don't know about. Maybe Guillen and Konerko are playing "good cop, bad cop" on this whole issue. Who knows.

[Steff]

Wow, you really went there with 'Maricon".  LMFAO, good job Steff!

 

 

 

I could only do it once since the boss and his son got there late (I didn't want to have to explain to my boss what it meant) but I think it was effective.. I was scared he was going to have us tossed.

[Dick Allen]

When McCarthy plunked Derek Lee yesterday, even though it obviously wasn't on purpose, you better believe the entire Cub dugout was on his ass, trying to get in his young, inexperienced head. I guess in Dusty's world that's gamesmanship, and telling a guy the ball was foul is just wrong.

[Chisoxrd5]

You mean what he did IS deception..??

 

LOL...lets leave it alone

 

I've already assumed my post made too much sense to reply to...

[Jabroni]

Not arguing that Lee should not have listened to Uribe.

 

Just that two wrongs do not make a right.

 

My stance is what Uribe did is not deception, and therefore is a low brow play.

 

Not illegal, not against the rules, just low brow.

 

SB

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

By definition, what Uribe did WAS deception. Need a dictionary?

[LosMediasBlancas]

I could only do it once since the boss and his son got there late (I didn't want to have to explain to my boss what it meant) but I think it was effective.. I was scared he was going to have us tossed. 

 

Was that right about when he started plunking out hitters?

[Steff]

Oye ve.. :headshake

[Texsox]

GMAFB.

 

What's next "your shoes are untied?" If the difference between this team winning and losing is childish ploys like this, this team is in trouble. There are certain things you should outgrow, I guess some people haven't. I'd rather see them play like men, not little boys.

[Steff]

Was that right about when he started plunking out hitters?

 

 

It was after the end of the top of the 2nd. I was already giving him s*** from my seat about his rising pitch count.. he knew my voice for sure.

[Soxbadger]

Damn work computer is blowing so this part should of been in the other post:

 

Lie:

 

A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.

 

Deliberately presented as true, compared with deception.

 

Now a lie can be a deception, but a deception does not have to be a lie. If you can not understand that, then you just will not understand the difference between the 2 words.

 

Jimh,

 

I would have to hear the specific examples to get into the details of whether I thought they were low brow or not. This is just 1 specific fact pattern where I believe that Uribe should not have said, the ball is foul. He could have acted as if the ball was foul, he could have done other things to decieve Lee, I just think actually saying:

 

The ball is foul, goes over a line of sportsmanship.

 

I agree that Konerko should not have commented in the newspapers, its not his team, or his call.

 

Steff,

 

As I said before, lieing is always deception, deception is not necessarily lieing.

 

I know this is a hard concept for people to grasp, but the words themselves pretty much state the obvious. Lieing is the act of decieving, but deception is not the act of lieing. It is getting some one to believe something based on their own manifestations of what they think is occuring.

 

When Uribe said the ball was fair, Lee did not come to to this conclusion because he misinterpreted the reality, he came to the conclusion because it is what Uribe told him.

 

SB

[Chisoxfn]

To be honest.. I think I initially thought that ball was foul.. anyone else..?? 

Hell, I tend to think Juan may of even thought the ball was foul. I was shocked that it stayed fair cause Paulie was playing so close to the line.

[Dick Allen]

Damn work computer is blowing so this part should of been in the other post:

 

Lie:

 

A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.

 

Deliberately presented as true, compared with deception.

 

Now a lie can be a deception, but a deception does not have to be a lie. If you can not understand that, then you just will not understand the difference between the 2 words.

 

Jimh,

 

I would have to hear the specific examples to get into the details of whether I thought they were low brow or not. This is just 1 specific fact pattern where I believe that Uribe should not have said, the ball is foul. He could have acted as if the ball was foul, he could have done other things to decieve Lee, I just think actually saying:

 

The ball is foul, goes over a line of sportsmanship.

 

I agree that Konerko should not have commented in the newspapers, its not his team, or his call.

 

Steff,

 

As I said before, lieing is always deception, deception is not necessarily lieing.

 

I know this is a hard concept for people to grasp, but the words themselves pretty much state the obvious. Lieing is the act of decieving, but deception is not the act of lieing. It is getting some one to believe something based on their own manifestations of what they think is occuring.

 

When Uribe said the ball was fair, Lee did not come to to this conclusion because he misinterpreted the reality, he came to the conclusion because it is what Uribe told him.

 

SB

 

But in order for it to be a lie, Uribe would have to know for a fact that the ball was fair. Has this been confirmed. I see a lot of quotes on the play, but none from him. What if Juan thought the ball was foul? He seems to be mistaken quite often.

[Soxbadger]

Jabroni,

 

It should of said:

 

What Uribe did went beyond deception.

 

IE to the area of lieing.

 

Lieing is always deception.

 

But deception is not always lieing, this computer is lagging to hell so my posts are all f***ed up.

 

SB

[Soxbadger]

Dick Allen,

 

As I said before.

 

If Uribe thought it was foul, its neither deception nor a lie.

 

He just made a mistake, and the Cubs listened to his mistaken belief.

 

But no one who is arguing with me is taking the stand point that Uribe may have thought it was foul, they are arguing he knew it was fair, but that it was okay for him to say it was foul.

 

SB

[Steff]

Steff,

 

As I said before, lieing is always deception, deception is not necessarily lieing.

 

I know this is a hard concept for people to grasp, but the words themselves pretty much state the obvious. Lieing is the act of decieving, but deception is not the act of lieing. It is getting some one to believe something based on their own manifestations of what they think is occuring.

 

When Uribe said the ball was fair, Lee did not come to to this conclusion because he misinterpreted the reality, he came to the conclusion because it is what Uribe told him.

 

SB

 

 

How do we even know he told him anything..?

 

OK.. so just to be clear.. what (we assume) he did you think WAS deceptive..? Correct..??

[Steff]

Dick Allen,

 

As I said before.

 

If Uribe thought it was foul, its neither deception nor a lie.

 

He just made a mistake, and the Cubs listened to his mistaken belief.

 

But no one who is arguing with me is taking the stand point that Uribe may have thought it was foul, they are arguing he knew it was fair, but that it was okay for him to say it was foul.

SB

 

 

I thought he said it was fair...??

[Chisoxfn]

Hell on a random sidenote. When I first saw the play I just assumed Juan had his arms up acting as if he was catching the ball. Not till I saw the thread had I thought he was signalling foul ball (and I know that having your hands up is also the sign for that...but its also about the same thing you do when your gonna deak a guy acting as if your about to receive a throw).

 

Was I the only one who saw it this way as opposed to the other?

[Soxbadger]

Steff,

 

Here are the facts that I am going by.

 

1) Uribe knew that the ball was fair. (damnit i keep mixing half of it up)

 

2) Uribe said as Lee was coming to 2nd, "foul ball".

 

Lieing, is deceptive in its very nature. So yes in that he did deceive Lee.

 

I am trying to split deception and lieing, into 2 categories to show where deception in baseball is always considered fair and part of the game, ie hidden ball trick, pick off move.

 

In a deceptive move, the player believes something that is not really going to happen. In a pick off move, the player is deceived into thinking that the ball is being thrown home, when in reality it is being thrown to first base, ie hidden ball trick, the player is deceived into thinking some one else has the ball.

 

In both of those scenarios, it is entirely up to the opposing player to view what is going on, and to decide what is happening. When some one lies, ie tells a something that is false. It goes beyond deception, because it is no longer just acts that lead to manifestations, but instead they are direct manifestations.

 

SB

Edited May 23, 2005 by Soxbadger

[Dick Allen]

Hell on a random sidenote.  When I first saw the play I just assumed Juan had his arms up acting as if he was catching the ball.  Not till I saw the thread had I thought he was signalling foul ball (and I know that having your hands up is also the sign for that...but its also about the same thing you do when your gonna deak a guy acting as if your about to receive a throw). 

 

Was I the only one who saw it this way as opposed to the other?

 

That's what I saw, I was wondering what Lee was doing. Uribe's English is supposedly very poor. I don't know if he can say foul. Did he actually say something to Lee, which I find hard to believe that Lee would be able to hear him and understand him, or did Lee go by Uribe holding up his hands.

Edited May 23, 2005 by Dick Allen

[SleepyWhiteSox]

A lying vs. deception argument...

[Steff]

Hell on a random sidenote.  When I first saw the play I just assumed Juan had his arms up acting as if he was catching the ball.  Not till I saw the thread had I thought he was signalling foul ball (and I know that having your hands up is also the sign for that...but its also about the same thing you do when your gonna deak a guy acting as if your about to receive a throw). 

 

Was I the only one who saw it this way as opposed to the other?

 

 

Jim and I actually thought he was going to 2nd in case there was a play also. He looked like he didn't know what was up.

[Steff]

That's what I saw, I was wondering what Lee was doing. Uribe's English is supposedly very poor. I don't know if he can say foul.  Did he actually say something to Lee, which I find hard to believe that Lee would be able to hear him and understand him, or did Lee go by Uribe holding up his hands.

 

 

Good point.. I've never talked to Uribe, or heard him talk.. so I'm gonna ask.