A Sox trade brewing....

[RockRaines]

Are you talking last year or this year? Cause I think I have made the point that we should have never traded for Everett back. KW lets his personal feeling get in the way and clouds his judgement.. AKA we still have Bochard and got rid of Rauch who we could have used in this past offseason.. With that said here is my orginal off-season plan.

 

Trade Pauly to Baltimore for Roberts and Gibbons..The O's were looking for a big bat, and at the time (early Dec I think I mentioned this) The O's would have went for it, with still have harriston to play second for them. Roberts would play SS For us with Gibbons playing 1b, Uribe moving over to 3b.

 

Ink Iguchi, which we did.. Nice Job KW..

 

With that said think about the range minus Gibbons we would have in the INF. 

 

Now onto to the OF

 

Trade Lee and Daiz to the Brewers for Pods and Davis..This gives us the lead-off hitter we need plus finishes out the rotation (Davis is making 1.7 mil less than we are paying Hernandez and coming off a very breakout year 12-12 with an ERA under 3.5)

 

Here is where it gets tricky, I wanted to play RF Jose Gullien, I felt that will Ozzie as his manager this kid could have shined playing for the SOX.  Who would have been a part of this deal I am not to sure on, since we didn't have an OF like Rivera.. Maybe Bochard and a double a pitcher would have finished this deal.

 

The only thing left was working on the bullpen, which is the hardest part about building any team IMO.  AS for the DH..It probally still be everett, unless we were able to trade him away, but honestly I never saw us being able to do that.

 

Are fair trades off?? There was a reason that Baltimore dealt Hairston to the cubs, Roberts was not going to be traded and was untouchable. So that ruins your guess on that one. Second, with a fairly young and shallow starting rotation, you think that the Brewers would have given us one of their top three guys in that trade, not in this world, so that theory is gone. As for Jose Guillen, Im not sure if a busted up OF and some mysterious double A pitcher would have netted a starting outfielder, sounds to me like you think everyone wants our second Tier prospects for their starters, which is not the case. If you could have pulled off those deals mentioned above you would go into the hall of fame for fleecing GM's. As for whether or not it would have happened, its not likely, and I still like our team now which has the best record in the MLB, thanks

[YASNY]

Are fair trades off??  There was a reason that Baltimore dealt Hairston to the cubs, Roberts was not going to be traded and was untouchable.  So that ruins your guess on that one.  Second, with a fairly young and shallow starting rotation, you think that the Brewers would have given us one of their top three guys in that trade, not in this world, so that theory is gone.  As for Jose Guillen, Im not sure if a busted up OF and some mysterious double A pitcher would have netted a starting outfielder, sounds to me like you think everyone wants our second Tier prospects for their starters, which is not the case.  If you could have pulled off those deals mentioned above you would go into the hall of fame for fleecing GM's.  As for whether or not it would have happened, its not likely, and I still like our team now which has the best record in the MLB, thanks

 

I've learned not to even bother reading that garbage.

[Kyyle23]

I've learned not to even bother reading that garbage.

 

I played MLB2005 on playstation and got Oakland to trade me Hudson, Chavez and Zito for Pauly, Crede, and PTBNL. Straight up! It can happen! It really can!

 

[YASNY]

I played MLB2005 on playstation and got Oakland to trade me Hudson, Chavez and Zito for Pauly, Crede, and PTBNL. Straight up! It can happen!  It really can!

 

 

 

I hate it when somebody proves me wrong.

[ZoomSlowik]

Are you talking last year or this year? Cause I think I have made the point that we should have never traded for Everett back. KW lets his personal feeling get in the way and clouds his judgement.. AKA we still have Bochard and got rid of Rauch who we could have used in this past offseason.. With that said here is my orginal off-season plan.

 

Trade Pauly to Baltimore for Roberts and Gibbons..The O's were looking for a big bat, and at the time (early Dec I think I mentioned this) The O's would have went for it, with still have harriston to play second for them. Roberts would play SS For us with Gibbons playing 1b, Uribe moving over to 3b.

 

Ink Iguchi, which we did.. Nice Job KW..

 

With that said think about the range minus Gibbons we would have in the INF. 

 

Now onto to the OF

 

Trade Lee and Daiz to the Brewers for Pods and Davis..This gives us the lead-off hitter we need plus finishes out the rotation (Davis is making 1.7 mil less than we are paying Hernandez and coming off a very breakout year 12-12 with an ERA under 3.5)

 

Here is where it gets tricky, I wanted to play RF Jose Gullien, I felt that will Ozzie as his manager this kid could have shined playing for the SOX.  Who would have been a part of this deal I am not to sure on, since we didn't have an OF like Rivera.. Maybe Bochard and a double a pitcher would have finished this deal.

 

The only thing left was working on the bullpen, which is the hardest part about building any team IMO.  AS for the DH..It probally still be everett, unless we were able to trade him away, but honestly I never saw us being able to do that.

 

The Orioles were not going to give us Roberts and Gibbons. Maybe one of the two but not both, and certainly not both of them for a guy that only had one year left on his contract. More importantly, why would they want to acquire Konerko when they already invested a bunch of money on Palmeiro? I'm also mystified at the mention of moving Roberts to SS since he has a grand total of 53 career games played at short, and he had 16 errors in that stretch. The Brewers have no reason to trade a solid young starter in Davis, and Diaz has no value whatsoever after getting rocked last year. There's a big difference between having a bullpen guy and a PTBNL in the deal and having a major league level starting pitcher in the deal. Jose Guillen was not going to be had for Borchard and some random AA pitcher. Borchard is another guy that has no value at this point, no way you were going to get a hitter of Guillen's quality with a deal centered around him. You're not going to get two starters for one of ours, which is your main problem with the first two proposals, and you need to give up more than two mediocre to poor prospects to get a potential .300/30/100 outfielder.

Edited May 25, 2005 by ZoomSlowik

[AnthraxFan93]

Are fair trades off??  There was a reason that Baltimore dealt Hairston to the cubs, Roberts was not going to be traded and was untouchable.  So that ruins your guess on that one.  Second, with a fairly young and shallow starting rotation, you think that the Brewers would have given us one of their top three guys in that trade, not in this world, so that theory is gone.  As for Jose Guillen, Im not sure if a busted up OF and some mysterious double A pitcher would have netted a starting outfielder, sounds to me like you think everyone wants our second Tier prospects for their starters, which is not the case.  If you could have pulled off those deals mentioned above you would go into the hall of fame for fleecing GM's.  As for whether or not it would have happened, its not likely, and I still like our team now which has the best record in the MLB, thanks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Here we go again, with the wrong information that Roberts was untouchable.. PLease enlighten the rest of us where you got this information from? At the end of last year Roberts had a slight edge over Harriston, becuase of harriston injury.

 

Brewers trade..Of course you are wrong, since I can say that as well.. without thinking of a legit reason kind of like you.. good try. Funny how when I mentioned this trade people said that the Sox were the ones that werre getting ripped off, now that the season started its the other way around.

 

Again, the gullien trade was tricky,that was a starting point..Man you people take everything way to seriusly. This is a deal that would have to be owrked out not as easy as the other deals.

[YASNY]

There are some things we people do not take seriously. Just saying.

[Kyyle23]

I hate it when somebody proves me wrong.

 

LOL. here is to 20/20 hindsight!

 

In all seriousness, If I had to pick between

 

Ortiz and El Duque

 

I pick El Duque

 

Jose Guillen and Jermaine Dye

 

Jermaine Dye ( and that is only because Guillen is a ticking timebomb who has no concept of team, regardless of who is coaching him. Sciocia coaches very similar to Guillen, I dont see how Ozzie would have some sort of calming effect on Jose. )

 

Gibbons/Roberts and Konerko/Iguchi

 

Konerko/Iguchi, hands down. Gibbons hasnt done much to distinguish himself, and while Roberts is pretty damn good, Iguchi is the one I want. Konerko will be fine, and will probably put up better numbers than Gibbons. iguchi should put up comprable, if not better numbers than Roberts.

[RockRaines]

Here we go again, with the wrong information that Roberts was untouchable.. PLease enlighten the rest of us where you got this information from? At the end of last year Roberts had a slight edge over Harriston, becuase of harriston injury.

 

Brewers trade..Of course you are wrong, since I can say that as well.. without thinking of a legit reason kind of like you.. good try. Funny how when I mentioned this trade people said that the Sox were the ones that werre getting ripped off, now that the season started its the other way around. 

 

Again, the gullien trade was tricky,that was a starting point..Man you people take everything way to seriusly.  This is a deal that would have to be owrked out not as easy as the other deals.

Please enlighten me to where he wasnt untouchable. Roberts had an edge over Hairston in just about everyone's opinion and for good reason too. Look what the cubs gave up for Hairston, now do you think your trade is reality?

 

Brewers trade, of course you are wrong, a top three starter, keep saying that to yourself, a young top three starter, with a low contract and promising improvement. Your "people" did not even know who Davis is. You points are opinion on theory, and your "ideal" team that you put together last year, with fake trades and what not, would still not be as good as we are this year. Al Leiter and Rus Ortiz serving up beachballs...Ben Davis catching-and yes you said that. Your fake trades giving our trash for starters wont work in the real world, seldom do GM's give up a little and get a lot.

 

You take your viewpoints and your hate for KW way too seriously. You main error in all of your many posts is your negative attitude toward the team and the ownership. The same ownership who remodeled our team and our coaching staff to put a winner on the field. They could only now hope for some winners in the stands.....

[AnthraxFan93]

Please enlighten me to where he wasnt untouchable.  Roberts had an edge over Hairston in just about everyone's opinion and for good reason too.  Look what the cubs gave up for Hairston, now do you think your trade is reality?

 

Brewers trade, of course you are wrong, a top three starter, keep saying that to yourself, a young top three starter, with a low contract and promising improvement.  Your "people" did not even know who Davis is.  You points are opinion on theory, and your "ideal" team that you put together last year, with fake trades and what not, would still not be as good as we are this year.  Al Leiter and Rus Ortiz serving up beachballs...Ben Davis catching-and yes you said that.  Your fake trades giving our trash for starters wont work in the real world, seldom do GM's give up a little and get a lot. 

 

You take your viewpoints and your hate for KW way too seriously.  You main error in all of your many posts is your negative attitude toward the team and the ownership.  The same ownership who remodeled our team and our coaching staff to put a winner on the field.  They could only now hope for some winners in the stands.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Roberts/Hariston..And the Cubs..Wow you still don't see the big picture do you..The Cubs were in a bind to get rid of Sosa at any cost, this is why Hariston was part of the deal, he also is able to play the OF, something that the CUbs needed that both their corner OF were gone. Who else was in the hunt for Sammy.. NO ONE, hense why they got so little for him in return, it was a buyers market.

 

Brewers trade and others..Again as stated before at the time I said the deal the Sox were giving up to much now you sit and know people dislike me so they make up to tell me differently.. Either way, Davis should have been included in that deal, end of story.

 

Ortiz, Well nobody perfect.. I am close, but even I make mistakes.. Same with AJ, though..Glad I was wrong about AJ, Ortiz should come back around.

 

My viewpoints are that from actaully watching more than the Sox play, and talking to different scouts about KW..I have actually talked with 4 scouts over the past 3 years 2 at the all-star game when it was here, about KW.. And most say the same thing that I preach.. He should not be a MLB GM, he is in way over his head.. He has made to many mistakes that as a GM you should never ever make..yet he still manages to have a job?

 

These Changes that he has made I have been preaching since the end of the 02 season to make, and yet they went ignored. Only after JR hired on OG and he started to complain to the media about how he wanted a real baseball team. That is what lite a fire under KW arse to make changes..If Cito was hired I bet you any money that Mags and lee would still be on the team and KW trying to sell you on the fact that Schoenweiss could start. I want nothing more than the Sox to win, unfortunely up until this year the GM and owner have not been on the same page as I have..

[ZoomSlowik]

Davis isn't a throw-in type player on a deal. You don't throw in major league starting pitchers. Apparently you haven't realized this yet. Keep preaching, I can't recall a single move that you have endorsed making sense, other than the one's in this thread that are somewhat after the fact.

[Kyyle23]

I have actually talked with 4 scouts over the past 3 years 2 at the all-star game when it was here, about KW.. And most say the same thing that I preach.. He should not be a MLB GM, he is in way over his head

 

droppin names....

 

So you walked up to scouts and started talking shop about KW? I would think scouts have alot more to do with their time at games than to talk down about a GM. Thats just me though.

 

Only after JR hired on OG and he started to complain to the media about how he wanted a real baseball team. That is what lite a fire under KW arse to make changes..

 

Lit a fire under his arse to make changes? KW has been making changes, every year, to try and better his club. It isnt as if he has been sitting back and letting them play and up and decided to start making changes because Ozzie started complaining. True, alot of his moves have blown up in his face, but that happens to every GM. Even Brian Cashman makes mistake signings. The difference is that Cashman has always had more wiggle room than KW because of Yankee money and Steinbrenners desire to win.

[Guest JimH]

Here we go again, with the wrong information that Roberts was untouchable.. PLease enlighten the rest of us where you got this information from?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Maybe Rock Raines got his info from the same source who told you most GM's are laughing at the salary the White Sox gave El Duque?

[Soxbadger]

Why would the Orioles trade for a 1b?

 

Why would the Orioles let themselves get completely ripped off?

 

Why would the Brewers trade away a cheap young player?

 

Might as well throw in Rickie Weeks.

 

SB

[RockRaines]

Roberts/Hariston..And the Cubs..Wow you still don't see the big picture do you..The Cubs were in a bind to get rid of Sosa at any cost, this is why Hariston was part of the deal, he also is able to play the OF, something that the CUbs needed that both their corner OF were gone. Who else was in the hunt for Sammy.. NO ONE, hense why they got so little for him in return, it was a buyers market.

 

Brewers trade and others..Again as stated before at the time I said the deal the Sox were giving up to much now you sit and know people dislike me so they make up to  tell me  differently.. Either way, Davis should have been included in that deal, end of story.

 

Ortiz, Well nobody perfect.. I am close, but even I make mistakes.. Same with AJ, though..Glad I was wrong about AJ, Ortiz should come back around.

 

My viewpoints are that from actaully watching more than the Sox play, and talking to different scouts about KW..I have actually talked with 4 scouts over the past 3 years 2 at the all-star game when it was here, about KW.. And most say the same thing that I preach.. He should not be a MLB GM, he is in way over his head.. He has made to many mistakes that as a GM you should never ever make..yet he still manages to have a job?

 

These Changes that he has made I have been preaching since the end of the 02 season to make, and yet they went ignored. Only after JR hired on OG and he started to complain to the media about how he wanted a real baseball team. That is what lite a fire under KW arse to make changes..If Cito was hired I bet you any money that Mags and lee would still be on the team and KW trying to sell you on the fact that Schoenweiss could start.  I want nothing more than the Sox to win, unfortunely up until this year the GM and owner have not been on the same page as I have..

 

 

I have talked to several scouts as well, they actually sold me some popcorn tins with the 4 different flavors in it, it was delicious although we couldnt finish the whole thing. And the reason that scouts are scouts, are because they dont have the knowledge to move up within the organization. If he is over his head, than I wonder what the rest of the league's Gm's feel when they are consistently looking up at our record. Its almost like when you type you cant read, if Hairsont was so little in return for someone they wanted to get rid of, that would mean the the O's wanted roberts and not hairston, which means Roberts was untouchable. Wow that would mean that I was right in the first place. Listen man, we know you hate KW, you want other teams to "throw" in starting players in deals including 2nd and third tier minor leaguers, but there is a reason why KW put together a winning baseball team, and you are still on your computer whining about what if. I will give you a real what-if, what if we were in last place? If I were you, I would go out to a game, put on your favorite sox hat and cheer on a team that you supposedly love, cause in the history of the sox, only one team has played better than this, live it up, cause we might not see it ever again, and then you can b**** about your xbox trades.

[RockRaines]

Davis isn't a throw-in type player on a deal. You don't throw in major league starting pitchers. Apparently you haven't realized this yet. Keep preaching, I can't recall a single move that you have endorsed making sense, other than the one's in this thread that are somewhat after the fact.

He did say Gooch at one point, but thats the only real one I recall. I think he was against Wright as well, which was a good call, but the senarios about bringing in people are downright unbelieveable. Some of us need to realize that seldom can we pull off a trade where we send worthless minor leaguers to another team for starters, just cause they are young.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Hindsight is 20/20. That trade sounds great now but did make any sense at the time?

 

Roberts 04

vs LH .215A .301O .315S .616OPS

vs RH .299A .363O .404S .767OPS

 

Looks a lot like Harris. His 3-yr avg's are pretty much the same.

He definitely looks like an upgrade over Harris but not a major one.

 

As for Gibbons 04:

vs LH .257A .289O .385S .674OPS

vs RH .241A .309O .376S .685OPS

 

Why am I trading for him when Gload put up much better numbers?

Why am I giving this up as well?

 

Konerko 04:

vs LH .288A .372O .577S .949OPS

vs RH .273A .354O .518S .872OPS

 

Koney had a career yr last yr. The big difference being his success against LH. This yr he's struggling vs LH.

vs LH .139A .295O .333S .628OPS. vs RH he's right around .850OPS.

 

You've got to make a convincing argument based on potential & past performance as to why the WSox would make that trade in the first place.

I didn't see one. I saw one based on the miraculous seasons both players are having for BAL now.

[JUGGERNAUT]

The other pcs as well.

 

It's pretty easy to debunk the rest.

Lee 04 : 17th best hitter in AL (6.70 RPG)

Davis 04 : 12th best starter in NL (3.19NPERA)

Diaz 04 : 98th C level arm (5.90NPERA)

Pods 04 : 77th best hitter in NL (4.34RPG)

 

Pods + what he meant in SB to the WSox probably increased his value to top 50 for the WSox. That means they figured they were giving up about 1 RPG in the trade. So far they missed that mark by .5 RPG.

 

Now do you really think the Brewers thought so little of the LH Davis that they would essentially trade him for +1 RPG & Diaz? That's insane. There is no way you are getting Davis from the Brewers for anything less than Garland. Garland is currently ranked 4th in the AL, & Davis ranked 38th in NL. I'm glad KW didn't do that trade.

 

The last part was Jose Guillen over Jermaine Dye.

Jose Guillen 04 27HR:

vs LH .299A .346O .493S .839OPS

vs RH .292A .353O .499S .852OPS

 

The numbers all point to Guillen but what about the cost?

Salary wise he's going to make 7.5M to Dye's 10.5M so you save 3M.

Talent wise he's going to cost a proven OF (Juan Rivera .307, 12H, 49RBI) plus a prospect (Maicer Izturis .338, 65R, 19DB, 3H, 36RBI). That's the price WAS paid. For the WSox it's probably Perez + Anderson.

 

So you're looking at giving up Perez, Anderson, 7.5M to secure Guillen for 2yrs. What's the likelihood of you trading him after 1 yr? He blew up w the LAA when he was replaced by a PR late in the season. The Oz loves to use his bench & won't hesitate to use a PR for someone. What makes you think he wouldn't blow up here under Chicago pressure?

 

I think it's too high of a price to pay for the added offense he was expected to produce over Dye.

[KevHead0881]

Who here is glad that Anthrax isn't our GM? [Raises hand]

[Jabroni]

Who here is glad that Anthrax isn't our GM? [Raises hand]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

*raises both hands*

Edited May 25, 2005 by Jabroni

[CanOfCorn]

What some people fail to understand is there are trades that lead to other things. To me, the Sox got beat on the Brewer trade. I think they could've gotten more for Carlos Lee.

 

BUT................

 

The money saved helped to sign Iguchi, AJ, Hermanson, and Dye. Therefore, the trade was a win-win. The Brewers got a middle of the order hitter that is now leading the NL is RBIs and the White Sox upgraded at 2B and C. Bolstered the bullpen. And got a serviceable RF.

 

 

 

How about this Anthrax...I'm posing a challenge. You no longer post your trades or say KW sucks until you become a GM and win that World Series with YOUR players. When you do that, and you prove all of us wrong, I will be the first in line to fly to wherever you are and present a Soxtalk trophy with a likeness of me kissing your ass.

[Guest JimH]

How about this Anthrax...I'm posing a challenge.  You no longer post your trades or say KW sucks until you become a GM and win that World Series with YOUR players.  When you do that, and you prove all of us wrong, I will be the first in line to fly to wherever you are and present a Soxtalk trophy with a likeness of me kissing your ass.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Two classics in this thread, the xbox trade comment was the other.

[Kyyle23]

Who here is glad that Anthrax isn't our GM? [Raises hand]

 

[AnthraxFan93]

What some people fail to understand is there are trades that lead to other things.  To me, the Sox got beat on the Brewer trade. I think they could've gotten more for Carlos Lee.

 

BUT................

 

The money saved helped to sign Iguchi, AJ, Hermanson, and Dye.  Therefore, the trade was a win-win.  The Brewers got a middle of the order hitter that is now leading the NL is RBIs and the White Sox upgraded at 2B and C.  Bolstered the bullpen.  And got a serviceable RF. 

How about this Anthrax...I'm posing a challenge.  You no longer post your trades or say KW sucks until you become a GM and win that World Series with YOUR players.  When you do that, and you prove all of us wrong, I will be the first in line to fly to wherever you are and present a Soxtalk trophy with a likeness of me kissing your ass.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have no need to stop spreading the truth about KW, and who the Sox could of had..Until KW is fired from the job he should no longer have I will only preach the truth that is KW=Failure. Until KW can actaully build a team that can win a title or WC.. IMO he is a failure.

Edited May 25, 2005 by AnthraxFan93

[AnthraxFan93]

Who here is glad that Anthrax isn't our GM? [Raises hand]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Heaven forbid you would want a winning team here in Chicago.. :rolly