NBA Draft Lottery

[hammerhead johnson]

     

 

You seriously made me laugh out loud when you said he "manhandles dudes down low."  He's too skinny to do so.  Are we watching the same games???  Watch the Wizards series.  You'll see him getting "manhandled" by below average players.  

 

What I'm saying is that he's a beast when it comes to altering and blocking shots. He could lead the league in rebounding. If you think that teams are scared of Brand when they're putting together their offensive game plans, then you're just not cut out to contribute to a basketball discussion.

 

I like Tyson and want him to succeed because he's on the Bulls.  I'm not as negative about Tyson as you are about Eddy.  Take your own advice because you never recognized what he's capable of, and he's also "on your team." 

 

Curry is a stroke. Don't make me bust out the list of over a dozen SGs who grab more rebounds per minute. I see what he's capable of. I can look at him.

 

Rebounds per minute and blocks per minute.  

 

I dunno why that's funny.

 

Those are telling statistics.

 

Once again, Brand >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tyson.  That's not a knock on tyson, even though you're taking it that way.  Brand is just that good.  If you can't appreciate that, whether he's on your team or not, then I don't know what to tell you.  Ask any knowledgeable person.  I can't imagine very many people, outside of his immediate family members along with yourself, choosing tyson over Brand.

 

We've established time and time again that you're blinded by scoring numbers. Maybe I could break it down for you in baseball terms, where pitching is the primary aspect of defense. How are you gonna build your team? I suppose that Hank Blalock is more valuable than Jake Peavy or Jason Schmidt, correct?

 

I know that you're gonna tell me it ain't the same thing, but think about it for a minute. How do you build in any sport?

 

I believe that a combination of offense and defense is much more important...

 

It's just a shame that it doesn't really work out that way in the vast majority of cases. Theo Ratliff and Ben Wallace will never score, so the f*** what? Anybody who knows their s*** takes them over Elton Brand every single time. Unless, of course, your philosophy is stooopid.

Edited May 28, 2005 by hammerhead johnson

[Palehosefan]

I agree with alot of your argument hammer, but do you really mean you would take Theo Ratliff over Elton Brand? Thats almost insane to me, maybe you meant something different and I'm reading it wrong.

 

Also, there is no way in heck Felton's best case scenario is Tony Parker right now. Maybe what Tony Parker can become, because Tony's assist totals have improved every year, but he just broke 6 assists per game for the first time this year. Felton will be around or more than that mark his rookie year alone. He's gonna shock some people at how good of a passer he truly is. Plus Tony is actually about 2 inches bigger and 20 pounds lighter than Felton and doesn't have the 45 inch vertical that Felton has. Tony is going to become a top 5 PG in the league, and I think Felton can be in the same category 2-3 years from now.

 

2 things will shock people at the measurements, first is Felton's height. He's about 5'10-5'11 tops, 2nd is his vertical, he will check in at 40 atleast.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

What I'm saying is that he's a beast when it comes to altering and blocking shots.  He could lead the league in rebounding.  If you think that teams are scared of Brand when they're putting together their offensive game plans, then you're just not cut out to contribute to a basketball discussion.

 

 

Those are telling statistics.

We've established time and time again that you're blinded by scoring numbers. 

 

I know that you're gonna tell me it ain't the same thing, but think about it for a minute.  How do you build in any sport? 

It's just a shame that it doesn't really work out that way in the vast majority of cases.  Theo Ratliff and Ben Wallace will never score, so the f*** what?  Anybody who knows their s*** takes them over Elton Brand every single time.  Unless, of course, your philosophy is stooopid.

 

I told you that Brand's numbers are just as good as Tyson's on defense and EXTREMELY BETTER on offense. But you know what? I'll admit it, I was wrong. Brand actually averages MORE BLOCKS than tyson. Tyson was only one spot ahead of Brand in rebounds. How the hell are you gonna argue against pure numbers??? Stop with the bulls*** that I only focus on offense because blocks and rebounds are more related to defense. You act as if tyson is this defensive force, but he really isn't. You're going by what he's CAPABLE of, but he sure as hell hasn't performed at an elite level. Brand has. He's played at an All-star level. CHECK THE NUMBERS.

 

And please, don't give me the per 48 min. argument. Anybody in their right mind knows that players don't get their minutes for a reason. If you're not good enough, you don't get the minutes. It's just that easy. Brand would be averaging about the same minutes if he was still in Chicago. He's a complete player, and he and Kirk would be the closest to complete players averaging starter minutes on this team...

 

Just answer this question for me. Who is more consistent, Brand or Chandler? You say that teams don't worry about Brand when they come up with an offensive plan as if they do with tyson. He isn't even on the court much, and he has a tendency of disappearing. He takes himself out of games by getting in foul trouble. PLEASE WATCH TAPES OF THE WIZARDS SERIES. Tell me that tyson showed up. I sure as hell didn't see the Wizards too worried about him. He got MANHANDLED by below-average post-men.

 

I stand by my word that you're nuts to say you would want tyson over Brand, and you're idiotic if you would take theo f***in' ratliff over Brand. That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard, and not just basketball-related...

 

Brand >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tyson

[ChWRoCk2]

Ok. Name 30 other guys who are going to be drafted in front of him then. 

ha you got me

[CSF]

I know he imrpoved his stock value during the tournament, but all the way to top 3 status?

 

Link

[dasox24]

Deron, f*** Yeah!

Edited May 29, 2005 by dasox24

[Palehosefan]

There's some very odd analysis on some of the picks. Like these...

 

"the Blazers will happily settle for Deron Williams, instead.) "

The Blazers would take Deron Williams happily while Telfair is their future at PG already? OOOK.

 

"A reliable point guard could rally the talented young Jazz back into the playoffs. GM Kevin O'Connor's Carolina connections will help convince him to make this investment. "

I have absolutely no idea how Kevin O'Connor is connected to UNC and I've also heard that the Jazz aren't high on Felton at all for whatever reasons.

 

There's no way Channing Frye goes in the top 10 either, the Knicks would be the closest to drafting him that early, but even then its still not happening in my opinion.

 

Sean May isn't going in the top 10, even to Mitch Kupchek.

[ZoomSlowik]

Just some comments. For one, Smith and Childress definitely only qualify as decent options in my book in terms of SCORING OPTIONS, which is what I was talking about. I highly doubt either of them will average 15 points on the year, which would lead me to consider them solid scoring options. As for the Brand/Tyson/Ratliff/Wallace comparisons, I don't think it works at all. Wallace and Brand both are on another level. Brand is basically Eddy Curry, only he can rebound and block shots. He might not be an elite defensive player, but he is definitely better than average. The Bulls would be an entirely different team if he were still here. He's an elite post scoring option, which would drastically improve the Bull's consistency in offensive production without hurting the defense all that much, if at all. There's no way I take Ratliff over him. Ratliff has never been an elite rebounder (the guy has never hit double figures despite playing 30+ minutes virtually his whole career) and is about Ben Wallace's equal on offense. Basically he blocks a few shots and takes up space. If he really had that much of an impact on his team he wouldn't be on team #4. As for Tyson, he might eventually be an elite option, but he's not even close yet. He's a solid defender and rebounder when he's healthy and on his game. Unfortunately we never know when that is. He doesn't always play the way he should and gets beat by guys he shouldn't on the defensive end way too often. Also, his offensive game, or lack thereof, is absolutely depressing. He has no shooting ability and no post moves. Basically the only way he scores is off a rebound or on a dunk from a nice pass. He drastically needs to improve in that area. Given the choice between an inconsistent 22 year old get that has had some injury problems and a 26 year old All-star that has put up around 20 points and 10 rebounds his whole career and more than 2 blocks per game the last four years, it's a no brainer. Take a look at all of the teams left in the playoffs. I'd say only two of them play well above average defense, while all of them have at least one player averaging close to 20 points per game and at least two other players that can get there on an above average but not stellar night. I can't say that about the Bulls. Even assuming Curry is gone/done, replace Tyson with Brand and the Bulls would still have above average defense and at least 3 consistent scoring options in Brand, Hinrich, and Gordon, with Deng doing fairly well also.

[ChWRoCk2]

There's some very odd analysis on some of the picks. Like these...

 

"the Blazers will happily settle for Deron Williams, instead.) "

The Blazers would take Deron Williams happily while Telfair is their future at PG already? OOOK.

 

There's no way Channing Frye goes in the top 10 either, the Knicks would be the closest to drafting him that early, but even then its still not happening in my opinion.

 

Sean May isn't going in the top 10, even to Mitch Kupchek.

blazers wont get deron

 

channing frye is good enough for the top ten but not recognizable

 

may is a top ten

[WHarris1]

may is a top ten

No

[ChWRoCk2]

No

y no? hes good and helped his team win the championship

[WHarris1]

y no? hes good and helped his team win the championship

Because there are more than 10 players better than him?

Because he is undersized?

[Palehosefan]

May doesn't have the potential teams look for. He has a ceiling that teams can see. He will be a very solid NBA player, but never a superstar. Also Channing Frye doesn't have the athletecism or strength/size teams look for, especially for a guy who will likely be a center in the league. Channing is long and has a chance to be able to hit the NBA 3 eventually, but his relative lack of athletecism and frail frame will end up costing him the top 10 in my opinion.

[ChWRoCk2]

id take may in a heartbeat

[WHarris1]

id take may in a heartbeat

Ok?

At what pick?

[ChWRoCk2]

Ok?

At what pick?

8 or 10

Edited May 29, 2005 by chi-guy2

[WHarris1]

8

Ok, that's why you're not a GM

Edited May 29, 2005 by WHarris1

[ChWRoCk2]

Ok, that's why you're not a GM

well the lakers need a big man to complement kobe, as in the past it worked, may can provide that plus they will have brian cook and odom to help, the knicks could use may to replace mohammed

[WHarris1]

well the lakers need a big man to complement kobe, as in the past it worked, may can provide that plus they will have brian cook and odom to help, the knicks could use may to replace mohammed

Fran Vazquez

Charlie Villanueva

Channing Frye

Chris Taft

Tiago Splitter

[ChWRoCk2]

Fran Vazquez

Charlie Villanueva 

Channing Frye

Chris Taft

Tiago Splitter

taft frye and villanueva would be other good fill ins

[DBAHO]

May in the top 10 is just laughable, when there's at least 4 to 5 better PF's in the draft than him.

 

Portland should be locking in on Williams, or even try to trade down with Charlotte so they can take Gerald Green to get a future 1st.

 

I thought I read Frye got a guarantee from Golden State that they were going to take him at #9. Makes sense really, with Adonal Foyle at C for them at the moment, and they don't really have many other weaknesses. Definitely the team to watch next season in my mind.

 

Charlotte wants Chris Paul, and if Atlanta don't pick him at #2, they'll do what they can to get him. Antoine Wright they are pretty high on at #13, personally I think Martell Webster is the better player, with the bigger upside, very happy for Orlando to take him at #11 if he's still on the board.

 

Deron Williams looks like a perfect fit for the Hornets. They can bring Speedy off the bench to back him up, and they probably won't be resinging qwerty's fav player, Dan Dickau.

 

What do Toronto do? Take a PG or another big man. If Felton is still on the board, you gotta think Toronto makes that pick, and then tries to dump Rafer Alston on someone. They've also got a 2nd 1st rounder at #16, so they could try to trade up to get one of the big 4 players.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

As for the Brand/Tyson/Ratliff/Wallace comparisons, I don't think it works at all. Wallace and Brand both are on another level. Brand is basically Eddy Curry, only he can rebound and block shots. He might not be an elite defensive player, but he is definitely better than average. The Bulls would be an entirely different team if he were still here. He's an elite post scoring option, which would drastically improve the Bull's consistency in offensive production without hurting the defense all that much, if at all. There's no way I take Ratliff over him. Ratliff has never been an elite rebounder (the guy has never hit double figures despite playing 30+ minutes virtually his whole career) and is about Ben Wallace's equal on offense. Basically he blocks a few shots and takes up space. If he really had that much of an impact on his team he wouldn't be on team #4. As for Tyson, he might eventually be an elite option, but he's not even close yet. He's a solid defender and rebounder when he's healthy and on his game. Unfortunately we never know when that is. He doesn't always play the way he should and gets beat by guys he shouldn't on the defensive end way too often. Also, his offensive game, or lack thereof, is absolutely depressing. He has no shooting ability and no post moves. Basically the only way he scores is off a rebound or on a dunk from a nice pass. He drastically needs to improve in that area. Given the choice between an inconsistent 22 year old get that has had some injury problems and a 26 year old All-star that has put up around 20 points and 10 rebounds his whole career and more than 2 blocks per game the last four years, it's a no brainer. Take a look at all of the teams left in the playoffs. I'd say only two of them play well above average defense, while all of them have at least one player averaging close to 20 points per game and at least two other players that can get there on an above average but not stellar night. I can't say that about the Bulls. Even assuming Curry is gone/done, replace Tyson with Brand and the Bulls would still have above average defense and at least 3 consistent scoring options in Brand, Hinrich, and Gordon, with Deng doing fairly well also.

 

Good post. It's nice to see that there are people who can see how ridiculous some of those comments were. I was starting to worry that everyone was agreeing with that bulls***.

 

But...but...but...defense! theo has awesome blocks per 48 min.!!! Look past how he sucks at everything else! Role players are a million times more valuable than stars! defense!!! :headshake

 

[hammerhead johnson]

I told you that Brand's numbers are just as good as Tyson's on defense and EXTREMELY BETTER on offense.  But you know what?  I'll admit it, I was wrong.  Brand actually averages MORE BLOCKS than tyson.  Tyson was only one spot ahead of Brand in rebounds.  How the hell are you gonna argue against pure numbers???  Stop with the bulls*** that I only focus on offense because blocks and rebounds are more related to defense.  You act as if tyson is this defensive force, but he really isn't.  You're going by what he's CAPABLE of, but he sure as hell hasn't performed at an elite level.  Brand has.  He's played at an All-star level.  CHECK THE NUMBERS.

 

And please, don't give me the per 48 min. argument.  Anybody in their right mind knows that players don't get their minutes for a reason.  If you're not good enough, you don't get the minutes.  It's just that easy.  Brand would be averaging about the same minutes if he was still in Chicago.  He's a complete player, and he and Kirk would be the closest to complete players averaging starter minutes on this team...

 

Just answer this question for me.  Who is more consistent, Brand or Chandler?  You say that teams don't worry about Brand when they come up with an offensive plan as if they do with tyson.  He isn't even on the court much, and he has a tendency of disappearing.  He takes himself out of games by getting in foul trouble.  PLEASE WATCH TAPES OF THE WIZARDS SERIES.  Tell me that tyson showed up.  I sure as hell didn't see the Wizards too worried about him.  He got MANHANDLED by below-average post-men.

 

I stand by my word that you're nuts to say you would want tyson over Brand, and you're idiotic if you would take theo f***in' ratliff over Brand.  That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard, and not just basketball-related...

 

Brand >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tyson

 

Theo Ratliff in his prime is more valuable to a championship squad than Elton Brand.

 

It's hard to argue with people who only look at numbers and don't watch the games. Ratliff has obviously been a superb defender, easily one of the best in the NBA for a number of years and damn near legendary despite the fact that he's never had a proper supporting cast. He's been a poor man's Dikembe Mutombo. As of now, he is past his prime, but that's besides the point. Anybody who doesn't recognize how valuable he was is either a new jack, or a straight up basketball dumbass.

 

Chandler is so much better on D than Elton Brand that it's hard to put into words. I can't even begin to comprehend your level of confusion when it comes to evaluating guys.

 

How the hell are you gonna argue against pure numbers, you ask? That's why you lose every time you type anything on here. Remember when you said that Rod Strickland was a winner? Or how Larry Hughes should win Defensive Player of the year? Holy Christ.

 

Don't use the Wizards series as a crutch. It only makes you even more annoying than usual. I could envision the wackness now...here comes a post with like 10 smilies lined up one after the other. You pioneered that, though. I gotta give credit where it's due.

[hammerhead johnson]

Just some comments. For one, Smith and Childress definitely only qualify as decent options in my book in terms of SCORING OPTIONS, which is what I was talking about. I highly doubt either of them will average 15 points on the year, which would lead me to consider them solid scoring options.

 

If you think Childress doesn't have the potential to score 18+ per contest, it's time to turn on the television. And besides, you gotta speak on the court vision and the rebounding when talking about Childress. Who gives a s*** about just scoring? There are so many different aspects to analyze, and you broke it down like a casual fan.

 

Ratliff has never been an elite rebounder (the guy has never hit double figures despite playing 30+ minutes virtually his whole career) and is about Ben Wallace's equal on offense. Basically he blocks a few shots and takes up space. If he really had that much of an impact on his team he wouldn't be on team #4.

 

I like you Zoom, I really do. But this is just...terrible. Basically he just blocks shots and takes up space? And he hasn't had an impact because he's been on 4 different teams? Ben Wallace has been on 4 different teams, and so was Bill Russell (IIRC).

 

Wow, unbelievable.

 

As for Tyson, he might eventually be an elite option, but he's not even close yet. He's a solid defender and rebounder when he's healthy and on his game. Unfortunately we never know when that is. He doesn't always play the way he should and gets beat by guys he shouldn't on the defensive end way too often. Also, his offensive game, or lack thereof, is absolutely depressing. He has no shooting ability and no post moves. Basically the only way he scores is off a rebound or on a dunk from a nice pass. He drastically needs to improve in that area. Given the choice between an inconsistent 22 year old get that has had some injury problems and a 26 year old All-star that has put up around 20 points and 10 rebounds his whole career and more than 2 blocks per game the last four years, it's a no brainer.

 

Haha, you're hung up on Tyson't offense too?

 

He is a goalie who will be altering shots and grabbing boards with the best of 'em in no time. Have some foresight, seriously. Has he not shown enough flashes? Don't even answer that...I can tell that you don't really watch him just by your mental copy and paste job of "He's a solid rebounder and defender when he's healthy and on his game". I've heard that s*** like a million times from half-assed columnists all over the country. And if you are watching Tyson, wow...

 

Solid? Umm, he is a superior defender/rebounder in the making. I ain't saying this just because he's a Bull...I hate Eddy Curry and Ben Gordon.

 

 

Take a look at all of the teams left in the playoffs. I'd say only two of them play well above average defense, while all of them have at least one player averaging close to 20 points per game and at least two other players that can get there on an above average but not stellar night. I can't say that about the Bulls. Even assuming Curry is gone/done, replace Tyson with Brand and the Bulls would still have above average defense and at least 3 consistent scoring options in Brand, Hinrich, and Gordon, with Deng doing fairly well also.

 

Irrelevant. Defense is what it's all about. Before this year and throughout the regular season, I have always preached Pistons/Spurs/Pre-Brawl Pacers. That's your first tier, Miami and Phoenix are your 2nd tier, etc. I'm not boasting, the other intelligent basketball heads on here would have told you the same.

 

Umm, well above average defense? Detroit and San Antonio are absolutely superior defensive squads. Come on, man.

Edited May 29, 2005 by hammerhead johnson

[hammerhead johnson]

I agree with alot of your argument hammer, but do you really mean you would take Theo Ratliff over Elton Brand? Thats almost insane to me, maybe you meant something different and I'm reading it wrong.

 

I meant Ratliff in his prime. He was something else, man. Best kept secret in the NBA, perhaps.

 

Brand is a fantasy monster, and like I said before, he's a legitimate starting PF on a championship squad. However, he is by no means a guy you build around. You build around guys like Chandler, Ratliff, Wallace, Camby, Duncan, Garnett, etc. If they can score, it's only a bonus. A good defense is a good offense, and not vice versa. I know I ain't the only guy in here who ain't caught up in Western thought, the American dream. The bomb, the long ball, etc. People need to kick that capitalistic bulls*** to the curb. Guard your motherf***ing fort, you don't want to have a Pheonix Suns or Dallas Mavericks game plan. That's when your entire s*** gets wiped out.