BMac might stay with Sox

[beck72]

Bronson was a starter last year after the first month of the season because Derek Lowe was sucking big balls and Wakefield became injury prone. And there's a difference, the Red Sox needed Bronson. The White Sox don't need BMac right now. Why rush him up to do mop up duty?? I rather have him pitch in triple a and let him start, learn how to get out of jams, refine his pitches even more and allow him to become an ace. We need to stop rushing pitchers. Let them come at their own pace.

 

The sox needed Bmac to fill in for El Duque. If Bmac shows he can get major league hitters out [like he did in his 1st start--a tough, tough spot to make his debut in], I don't think the sox will listen to everyone saying send him back down to AAA.

 

The Sox aren't rushing Bmac. Rushing him would have meant starting in CHI instead of AAA. And he's coming on at his own pace.

[YASNY]

I know its fun to engage in these esoterical discussions but the fact is that the question cannot be answered until: (1) we see how McCarthy does in his next two starts (which apparently he'll get); and (2) we know the health of the other four starting pitchers when El Duque returns.

 

I wouldn't be opposed to him going to the pen if continues to throw as well as he did Sunday.  If he proves he belongs in the bigs it may be more detrimental to him mentally to send him down while we're in the midst of this great run.

 

If in his next couple starts it becomes apparent that he has things to work on then we send him down for further development.

 

El Duque should only miss one more start, unless you have info I haven't heard yet.

[nitetrain8601]

The sox needed Bmac to fill in for El Duque. If Bmac shows he can get major league hitters out [like he did in his 1st start--a tough, tough spot to make his debut in], I don't think the sox will listen to everyone saying send him back down to AAA.

 

The Sox aren't rushing Bmac. Rushing him would have meant starting in CHI instead of AAA. And he's coming on at his own pace.

 

Yes, but not for an extended period of time. It was just supposed to be a 2 game thing at most. Bmac got a below average offense out. Let's see him when he faces a Yankee lineup(similar to what Neal Cotts went through a couple of years ago) and see if his s*** isn't shaken. I could understand if one of our starters has been doing piss poor, but we have the best starting staff in the league and I doubt that BMac could do any better than what our starting staff is doing now(as in ERA and wins which is all that matters). I'd like to see him develop one more pitch in triple A and get his fastball together, else you're just setting him a year back if you have him pitch in the pen this year.

[beck72]

If in his next couple starts it becomes apparent that he has things to work on then we send him down for further development.

 

What better way to judge if BMac can handle the pressure of being a major league pitcher than put a bug in his ear that he may stay in CHI if he does well? Sounds like a test for BMac

[Soxfest]

let him start put JC or OH in pen

[nitetrain8601]

let him start put JC or OH in pen

 

Why?

Contreras is 2-1(lack of run support for the most part) with a 3.23ERA. That's #2 stuff.

Hernandez is 5-1 with a 3.91 ERA.

 

There is no point in putting BMac ahead of those guys, especially considering we're not only in the race, we're in first place. Now if BMac was a hitter then I would say let's put him in there. Starting pitching help isn't needed for once.

[beck72]

Yes, but not for an extended period of time. It was just supposed to be a 2 game thing at most. Bmac got a below average offense out. Let's see him when he faces a Yankee lineup(similar to what Neal Cotts went through a couple of years ago) and see if his s*** isn't shaken. I could understand if one of our starters has been doing piss poor, but we have the best starting staff in the league and I doubt that BMac could do any better than what our starting staff is doing now(as in ERA and wins which is all that matters). I'd like to see him develop one more pitch in triple A and get his fastball together, else you're just setting him a year back if you have him pitch in the pen this year.

 

Again, what you or I would like to see happen with Bmac doesn't matter. If he can get outs, he'll stick around. My guess is he'll be able to get outs in the sox bullpen, unless someone goes down to injury. As far as "setting him back a year if he pitches in the bullpen", I don't see how it sets him back. And if BMac sticks with the sox in the pen, the professionals in the sox org. don't see it either.

 

And his fastball is fine. He has 3 solid pitches

[GoodAsGould]

If I had my way we would put El Duque in the pen, that would save his arm and give us a great bullpen arm as well, But there is no way in hell El Duque will agree to go to the bullpen so thats just a pipe dream.

[nitetrain8601]

Again, what you or I would like to see happen with Bmac doesn't matter. If he can get outs, he'll stick around. My guess is he'll be able to get outs in the sox bullpen, unless someone goes down to injury. As far as "setting him back a year if he pitches in the bullpen", I don't see how it sets him back. And if BMac sticks with the sox in the pen, the professionals in the sox org. don't see it either.

 

And his fastball is fine. He has 3 solid pitches

 

I'd like to see his fastball get faster unless he starts pulling the strings like Shingo. Well let's hope the Sox organization makes the right decision and puts him back in AAA. Here's two examples of relievers used as spot starters and starting the next year or started that same year that I could think of.

 

Buehrle - Did good

Juan Cruz - failed so far

Danny Haren - failed so far

Jon Adkins - failed so far

Wilson Alvarez(though he's already older) - decent, but he's already older; just threw him in there so people don't think I'm trying to be biased

Danny Graves - failed

 

I can't think of anymore right now, but so far most of them failed.

[GoodAsGould]

I'd like to see his fastball get faster unless he starts pulling the strings like Shingo. Well let's hope the Sox organization makes the right decision and puts him back in AAA. Here's two examples of relievers used as spot starters and starting the next year or started that same year that I could think of.

 

Buehrle - Did good

Juan Cruz - failed so far

Danny Haren - failed so far

Jon Adkins - failed so far

Wilson Alvarez(though he's already older) - decent, but he's already older; just threw him in there so people don't think I'm trying to be biased

Danny Graves - failed

 

I can't think of anymore right now, but so far most of them failed.

 

 

well, Cruz has the stuff but he has no control which is a big part, Haren has been the starter for Oakland, Adkins isnt good, Alvarez did pretty good last year doing that, Graves was a good closer last year he just lost his stuff.

 

This is how i like to look at it, Buehrle was used as a RP and so was Garland... And now they are our top 2 pitchers so thats a good sign.

[Gene Honda Civic]

BTW, didn't Bronson Arroyo do pretty well in the Red sox pen last year, and it didn't hurt his development as a SP?

I don't think comparing a BMac with a 27 year old ex-prospect helps your case any.

[beck72]

I'd like to see his fastball get faster unless he starts pulling the strings like Shingo. Well let's hope the Sox organization makes the right decision and puts him back in AAA. Here's two examples of relievers used as spot starters and starting the next year or started that same year that I could think of.

 

Buehrle - Did good

Juan Cruz - failed so far

Danny Haren - failed so far

Jon Adkins - failed so far

Wilson Alvarez(though he's already older) - decent, but he's already older; just threw him in there so people don't think I'm trying to be biased

Danny Graves - failed

 

I can't think of anymore right now, but so far most of them failed.

 

If BMac has the talent to be a #3 SP in this league, then he has the talent to pitch in the pen. These guys didn't suck [or do well] because they first pitched in the bullpen. They suck because they can't get guys out/ throw too many meatballs/ give up too many walks. If BMac has the talent most people think he does, then a stint in the bullpen won't hurt him.

[nitetrain8601]

well, Cruz has the stuff but he has no control which is a big part, Haren has been the starter for Oakland, Adkins isnt good, Alvarez did pretty good last year doing that, Graves was a good closer last year he just lost his stuff.

 

This is how i like to look at it, Buehrle was used as a RP and so was Garland... And now they are our top 2 pitchers so thats a good sign.

 

As far in the same year of spot starting and bullpen relief, they've all pretty much sucked when they started. Cruz didn't get time to develop his control because of people thinking it was a better idea to just bring him up and leave him in the bullpen at least. Haren has been a starter for Oakland, but he isn't as good as advertised at all. I'm not expecting him to have an ERA of 2 either. He has a 5.19ERA and is 1-6. Adkins isn't good. Alvarez did good, but he's already older. Older guys IMO could deal with it, but not young up and coming pitchers. That's because older pitchers have worked on their stuff and it's as good as it gets. Graves stunk when he started, and sucked last year too IMHO. Ever since he was taken out of the bullpen, that's when he went downhill.

[beck72]

I don't think comparing a BMac with a 27 year old ex-prospect helps your case any.

Oh well.

[nitetrain8601]

If BMac has the talent to be a #3 SP in this league, then he has the talent to pitch in the pen. These guys didn't suck [or do well] because they first pitched in the bullpen. They suck because they can't get guys out/ throw too many meatballs/ give up too many walks. If BMac has the talent most people think he does, then a stint in the bullpen won't hurt him.

 

Haren I believe was the Cards best pitching prospect and he's pretty highly regarded. He's supposed to be a damn good pitcher and he was one coming out of the bullpen last year for the Cards. He was though of as a future #2/#3. I think pitching in the bullpen early in their careers as opposed to staying in the minors and refining their stuff every 5th day has something to do with it.

[GoodAsGould]

Graves went downhill because he lost all the bite on his fastball, Also unlike Cruz who has no control B-Mac has great control which is a big reason that im for this.

[Wedge]

I'd like to see his fastball get faster unless he starts pulling the strings like Shingo. Well let's hope the Sox organization makes the right decision and puts him back in AAA. Here's two examples of relievers used as spot starters and starting the next year or started that same year that I could think of.

 

Buehrle - Did good

Juan Cruz - failed so far

Danny Haren - failed so far

Jon Adkins - failed so far

Wilson Alvarez(though he's already older) - decent, but he's already older; just threw him in there so people don't think I'm trying to be biased

Danny Graves - failed

 

I can't think of anymore right now, but so far most of them failed.

 

Johan Santana? Here's some info:

 

season G GS ERA

2000 30 5 6.49

2001 15 4 4.74

2002 27 14 2.99

2003 45 18 3.07

[nitetrain8601]

Johan Santana?  Here's some info:

 

season  G      GS  ERA

2000 30 5 6.49

2001 15 4 4.74

2002 27 14  2.99

2003 45 18  3.07

 

Who ended up going back to the minors because they wanted him to develop. Why do you think he only had 15 games in 2001? It was even on ESPN last week. He tried to blow everyone away(and he was a stud prospect, prolly moreso than McCarthy). He pitched out of the bullpen, and then started. They didn't think he developed right and told him to not only refine his controls, but to develop a change and that's where he fell in love with it. So he's a bad example for your defense.

[ZoomSlowik]

Who ended up going back to the minors because they wanted him to develop. Why do you think he only had 15 games in 2001? It was even on ESPN last week. He tried to blow everyone away(and he was a stud prospect, prolly moreso than McCarthy). He pitched out of the bullpen, and then started. They didn't think he developed right and told him to not only refine his controls, but to develop a change and that's where he fell in love with it. So he's a bad example for your defense.

 

But the main reason he went back down was to develop that extra pitch. He also still pitched in the pen after he returned to the majors. To the best of my knowledge they don't intend to have McCarthy add a pitch to his repetoire. I don't really have a strong opinion either way. If he can help in the bullpen, I don't have a problem with it. If they want him to get some more innings in AAA, I don't have a problem with it. In the end I don't think he really has that much more to prove in the minors. I doubt the relief stint is really going to hurt him. He already possesses two things that most of those guys that failed didn't have: control and a major league ready breaking ball.

Edited May 25, 2005 by ZoomSlowik

[Balta1701]

If BMac has the talent to be a #3 SP in this league, then he has the talent to pitch in the pen. These guys didn't suck [or do well] because they first pitched in the bullpen. They suck because they can't get guys out/ throw too many meatballs/ give up too many walks. If BMac has the talent most people think he does, then a stint in the bullpen won't hurt him.

 

I disagree. If a guy is not getting in regular work as a very young kid, then a stint in the bullpen can really do some damage.

 

How many times have you seen a guy who hasn't pitched in 7 or 8 days come out of the bullpen and suddenly start walking every hitter he faces?

 

If a guy isn't getting in regular work against decent hitters, things can start to suffer, like the pitcher's technique. Now, if the pitcher we're talking about is someone like John Smoltz, we're talking about a guy who's been around so long that no matter what goes wrong in his pitching, he'll figure it out and fix it pretty quick.

 

On the other hand, if you stick a rookie into that same spot, what can happen? The guy can develop a few problems with his technique, and as he's trying to fix those, things can multiply.

 

Remember 1 thing about guys like BMac. At every single level they've pitched at, they've dominated the guys hitting against them, even on bad days. At the big league level, that will not happen. You need to be dominating in order to outduel big league hitters. If you're not...then suddenly you're being beaten for the first time in your career. Not everyone knows how to handle that. Not every pitcher will struggle with that. But a young starter can have so much value to a team that it's worth a fair amount of caution to make sure they enter the league easily.

[GoodAsGould]

Who ended up going back to the minors because they wanted him to develop. Why do you think he only had 15 games in 2001? It was even on ESPN last week. He tried to blow everyone away(and he was a stud prospect, prolly moreso than McCarthy). He pitched out of the bullpen, and then started. They didn't think he developed right and told him to not only refine his controls, but to develop a change and that's where he fell in love with it. So he's a bad example for your defense.

 

 

Santana was a stud prospect? Last time i checked he was hardly a prospect at all which is what made it possible for the twins to get him.

[bulokis]

Santana was a stud prospect? Last time i checked he was hardly a prospect at all which is what made it possible for the twins to get him.

 

Wasnt Santana a Rule V draft by the Twinks?

[JUGGERNAUT]

If El Duque makes it back, is moving Contreras to the pen a viable option?  Would you project him as a top 20 RP if he makes the shift?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No way. Trade him before moving him to the pen.

He's ranked 11th in the AL as a starter right now. His value has never been higher.

He's got 14M left on his contract. There are contenders that will pay high to get him in their rotation. There are near contenders that might just take him on for 2006. He has far greater value in trade right now then he would in the pen.

 

Someone will probably bring this up so let's look at his relief potential:

05 Pitches 1-15 26AB .308A .387O .462S .849OPS

04 Pitches 1-15 91AB .253A .327O .440S .766OPS

03 Pitches 1-15 49AB .306A .382O .408S .790OPS

 

He has no pen value. Trade him.

 

On the subject of BMac I thought about this again & I don't see how the WSox can avoid burning a year of service on him. He's good for at least 3 more starts with El Duque on the DL but this is just El Duque's first stint on the DL. The odds are there will be at least one maybe two more. We knew going in to that deal that we'd be lucky to see 20 starts out of him. As long as he's healthy going into Oct it be worth it.

So burning a yr of service for BMac is not an issue. It's a question of whether to keep him on the team for relief duties or send him to Charlotte for starts. Options don't play a role either because the WSox add him to the 25 man roster on each call-up. So there's really no addition cost in shuffling him between Charlotte & Chicago for starts. I think that's the better way to go. Charlotte needs him as much as we do. The more AAA starts he gets the better he'll do up here.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Wasnt Santana a Rule V draft by the Twinks?

The Fish actually.

[ReinsdorfSucks]

this is f***ing stupid. the kid needs to pitch every 5th day not put in the bullpen and pitch whenever there's a chance.