American Heroes

[YASNY]

I've had some random thoughts running around my head today. What, or who, defines the term "American Hero" today? Who can we call an American Hero? I sure as hell don't know, and I've been around for a while.

 

Think about some these names. What is "right" about them and what is "wrong" about them? Why do they or why don't they qualify as an American Hero?

 

Ward Churchill

Pat Tillman

Bill Clinton

Hillary Clinton

George W. Bush

Michael Jordan

Ronald Reagan

Jimmy Carter

John McCain

 

 

I'm open for suggestions, as I'm kind of doing this on the fly. I'm not even sure where I'm going with this. Each of the people I mentioned above would qualify as hero to someone. Churchill and Tillman are the first on my list because that's who I thought of first. Those two on are opposite extremes. Yet, to a segemnt of American society, each are heroes in their own right (or left, as the case may be). Churchill has been shredded by the right. O'Reilly, Limbaugh, Hannity, etc have just ripped this guy a new ass. Yet, to some people, he's their voice. Then you take Tillman. He walked away from a life of glory that most of us only dream about. He gave the ultimate sacrifice for what he believed in.

 

Why do the flaws of a few in the US military get so much attention, the Lindy Englands for example, yet the vast majority of our military personel that do what they are supposed to do when they are supposed to do it. Why are these people ignored. Why is anything and everything that military personel do that is negative get so much air time in the media, yet so much good being done by our men and women in the service of their country is being totally ignored.

 

People, we really need to get away from this confrontational aspect of politics that we currently embrace in this country. The extreme left is so full of s***. The extreme right is so full of s***. The closer you are to one extreme or the other, the more full of s*** you are. Put yourself in the center, because when it comes down to it, that's what is best for all of us. While you are standing in the center, lean which ever way you want to, but have a hand extended towards the extreme and try and reach out to those that are out on the fringes and pull them towards the center.

 

What happened in the Senate this week gives me some faith in our system. The center stood up and made sure it's voice was heard. The extremes were left b****ing and moaning about the comprimise, and that's the way it should be.

 

Personally, I stand in the center and lean toward the right. Yet, I heard something a couple of days ago that resonated within me. From "The West Wing", which unarguably has a liberal slant ....

 

Josh Lyman: What do you say about a country that looks out for the rights of those that are attemtping to destroy it?

 

Toby Ziegler: God Bless America.

[Balta1701]

As a person vehemently on the left, I'd love to know where exactly you came up with the idea that Ward Churchill is somehow a hero of the left? I highly doubt that the guy qualifies as a hero to almost anyone.

 

Here's what Ward Churchill is; he's a random, obscure professor at a University in Colorado who holds some pretty damn extreme views, and who goes around publically expressing them.

 

Because his views are so far out of the mainstream, the folks on the right wing (read: Bill O'Reilly) grab him as an example of those "crazy liberal universities" that they can use to brow-beat anyone who disagrees with them.

 

CJR did a great piece the other day on how O'Reilly was using Ward Churchill as a whipping boy for his political opposition at the same time as he was complaining about the NYT using the widespread abuse of prisoners by the U.S. in the same manner.

 

Here's the reality about Ward Churchill and the left; we really don't give a darn. The guy's a nutcase, he's certainly no spokesman for the left. The left does tend to care about academic freedom, and hence we wouldn't be thrilled if he lost his job simply because of some remarks he made (his reported lying about his heritage in his job application is a different story), but overall, no one really cares about what some crazy professor in Colorado thinks except for the folks trying to use his craziness to score political points against the other side.

[The Critic]

Hulk Hogan?

[YASNY]

As a person vehemently on the left, I'd love to know where exactly you came up with the idea that Ward Churchill is somehow a hero of the left?  I highly doubt that the guy qualifies as a hero to almost anyone.

 

Here's what Ward Churchill is; he's a random, obscure professor at a University in Colorado who holds some pretty damn extreme views, and who goes around publically expressing them.

 

Because his views are so far out of the mainstream, the folks on the right wing (read:  Bill O'Reilly) grab him as an example of those "crazy liberal universities" that they can use to brow-beat anyone who disagrees with them. 

 

CJR did a great piece the other day on how O'Reilly was using Ward Churchill as a whipping boy for his political opposition at the same time as he was complaining about the NYT using the widespread abuse of prisoners by the U.S. in the same manner.

 

Here's the reality about Ward Churchill and the left; we really don't give a darn.  The guy's a nutcase, he's certainly no spokesman for the left.  The left does tend to care about academic freedom, and hence we wouldn't be thrilled if he lost his job simply because of some remarks he made (his reported lying about his heritage in his job application is a different story), but overall, no one really cares about what some crazy professor in Colorado thinks except for the folks trying to use his craziness to score political points against the other side.

 

Damn. First response and I get someone wanting to hand my ass to me on a platter. Churchill is an example .... an extreme one to be sure ... of the radically left slant of the "advanced" educational system in this country. The fact that he was employeed by an institution of "higher learning" and invited to speak at other "institutions of higher learning" after his extremist rants tends to reinforce the fact that some people in the world of academia do not consider him so very extreme. Hence, my point, that he is a "hero" to some. You do not agree that he is worthy of the label "hero". Good for you!

[Balta1701]

Damn.  First response and I get someone wanting to hand my ass to me on a platter.  Churchill is an example .... an extreme one to be sure ... of the radically left slant of the "advanced" educational system in this country.  The fact that he was employeed by an institution of "higher learning" and invited to speak at other "institutions of higher learning" after his extremist rants tends to reinforce the fact that some people in the world of academia do not consider him so very extreme.  Hence, my point, that he is a "hero" to some.  You do not agree that he is worthy of the label "hero".  Good for you!

 

Here's one thing you need to remember about institutes of higher education; it is their job to employ people who are completely out of the mainstream. It is also their job to expose their students to beliefs that are totally out of the mainstream. Why? Several reasons. First, it is an absolute necessity in a quality higher education that a student learns how to judge, evaluate, and refute an argument made by someone else with whom they disagree. This should happen at any credible institute.

 

During my time at Indiana, I went to talks by such folks as Elizabeth Dole, Colin Powell, and Howard Zinn. I didn't agree with everything said by any of them. That's what's supposed to happen at a genuine university.

 

Would I have gone to see him had he spoke at my university? Probably would have. Would I have agreed with him? Of course not. The guy's a nut. That's my evaluation of him.

 

It's also worth noting that, at least prior to the point in January where that post 9/11 essay of his was unearthed, a lot of his speaking engagements came from the fact that he was supposedly a scholar on Native American issues, and that's a topic that is actually worth some discussion. (His record on that topic has sense been called into question, as I noted, since he may have lied about his heritage in the first place).

 

I think that the thing that got to me most from your original statement was that it seemed that you lumped Pat Tillman and Ward Churchill on the same level, and gave Pat Tillman to the Right and Ward Churchill to my side. I think it's hard for anyone in this country to disagree with the statement that Tillman is a hero, no matter how badly the military treated his memory after he was killed. He gave up a wealthy life for something he believed in, and lost his life in the process. That qualifies as a hero in my book.

[EvilJester99]

How about General George Patton?? I know a bit older than most of the ones you have but he was a big time hero with his tactics and leadership...yeah he was a jagbag but sometimes you need a ball buster to get s*** done the right way...thats just me though.

[Kid Gleason]

This could be pretty much anybody. Mine?

 

Charlie Christian

Brian Setzer

Chet Atkins

Randy Rhoads

Michael Hedges

 

Others that MIGHT be up there?

 

George Romero

Tom Savini

Joe R. Lansdale

 

It depends on what you consider a "hero". The first batch of people were guitar pioneers. Setzer brought back two styles that many felt were "dead" and made them HUGELY popular again.

 

The second batch exceled in their jobs, helped define an entire film genre, and helped to change films. Joe Lansdale unwittingly helped create a style of writing, and then turned himself into one of the best American authors alive today.

 

Yeah, I should probably look at the people who have done something super special and call them "heroes", but I don't base my life on what they did. Tilman did something amazing, yes, but I am not about to follow his path. I have however followed the paths laid out by the guitarists up there as far as playing. I have chosen my own path as far as day to day life, and follow both the things done right by my own parents, and the things done wrong by my parents. I try to better them in the parenting aspect, and they were both great parents.

 

But each persons "heroes" are all to what you feel a "hero" is all about. Hillary Clinton is so far removed from what one of my "heroes" would be it isn't even funny. Hell man, few politicians could ever be considered a "hero" to me.

[Steff]

Police officers

Firefighters

Doctors

Nurses

[Kid Gleason]

Nurses

 

I can agree with the others, but to say "Nurses" would mean my wife would be ruling my house more than she already does!!! LOL! So, I have to just say "yeah, they're pretty cool and all...but..."!!!

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Police officers

Firefighters

Doctors

Nurses

 

 

Add those serving in the military to that list and its.......

 

 

YAS I dont know how you can put an anti-american extremist such as Ward Churchill at the top of a list of anything remotely connected to a "hero". That man is a total disgrace and deserves to be fired from his job not worshipped as a hero. I'm willing to bet the rest of those on your list despise this worm.

 

As for the rest of the list I really have a hard time with politicians of either party being included in any list of hero's. Politicians are an insipid bunch who often place the needs of special interests and rich donors ahead of doing what's right. Thats on both sides mind you. John McCain tops a short list of candidates from that group as he served honorably in Vietnam instead of taking a cushy job or running away altogether and he paid big time by losing 5 years of his life rotting away in a prison camp.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Police officers

Firefighters

Doctors

Nurses

 

I assumed he was looking for something more specific.

 

I prefer it when I hear the "honorable" men and women who serve in the military or the "distinguished" policemen, etc...That way it seperates those who deserve to be called heroes from the corrupt, evil, greedy, etc...

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

I assumed he was looking for something more specific.

 

I prefer it when I hear the "honorable" men and women who serve in the military or the "distinguished" policemen, etc...That way it seperates those who deserve to be called heroes from the corrupt, evil, greedy, etc...

 

 

The Corrupt, evil etc.....etc...are always exposed for what they are and punished. There are so few bad apples among those groups, despite the media's blind obsession with tumpeting every single abuse whether real or imagined, that the groups as a whole can be recognized as heroes.

[Steff]

The Corrupt, evil etc.....etc...are always exposed for what they are and punished.  There are so few bad apples among those groups, despite the media's blind obsession with tumpeting every single abuse whether real or imagined, that the groups as a whole can be recognized as heroes.

 

 

Sorry Nuke.. I wanted to post a quick response and I missed you guys.

 

And yep.. a few bad apples everywhere. Just look at some of the idiots that post on this site..

[Steff]

I can agree with the others, but to say "Nurses" would mean my wife would be ruling my house more than she already does!!! LOL! So, I have to just say "yeah, they're pretty cool and all...but..."!!! 

 

 

I probably should have said "medical personnel"... better

[SleepyWhiteSox]

And yep.. a few bad apples everywhere. Just look at some of the idiots that post on this site..

 

Touche.

[Steff]

Touche.

 

 

 

Ironically... I wasn't even thinking of you. Thanks for the reminder. :dips***

[Steff]

I assumed he was looking for something more specific.

 

 

 

If I had the name of every officer, firefighter, medical worker, etc, etc.. I would post them. I'd also add teachers in there on top of the military. People who do selfless jobs for others.. those are pretty important, IMO.

[Yossarian]

This could be pretty much anybody. Mine?

 

Charlie Christian

Brian Setzer

Chet Atkins

Randy Rhoads

Michael Hedges

 

Others that MIGHT be up there?

 

George Romero

Tom Savini

Joe R. Lansdale

 

It depends on what you consider a "hero". The first batch of people were guitar pioneers. Setzer brought back two styles that many felt were "dead" and made them HUGELY popular again.

 

The second batch exceled in their jobs, helped define an entire film genre, and helped to change films. Joe Lansdale unwittingly helped create a style of writing, and then turned himself into one of the best American authors alive today.

 

Yeah, I should probably look at the people who have done something super special and call them "heroes", but I don't base my life on what they did. Tilman did something amazing, yes, but I am not about to follow his path. I have however followed the paths laid out by the guitarists up there as far as playing. I have chosen my own path as far as day to day life, and follow both the things done right by my own parents, and the things done wrong by my parents. I try to better them in the parenting aspect, and they were both great parents.

 

But each persons "heroes" are all to what you feel a "hero" is all about. Hillary Clinton is so far removed from what one of my "heroes" would be it isn't even funny. Hell man, few politicians could ever be considered a "hero" to me.

I agree with you on the politicians, but how in the hell do you leave Django Reinhardt out when listing virtuosos of the guitar? Django Reinhardt and Thelonious Monk are my musical heroes and I'm sure they both have many devotees here.

[Kid Gleason]

I agree with you on the politicians, but how in the hell do you leave Django Reinhardt out when listing virtuosos of the guitar? Django Reinhardt and Thelonious Monk are my musical heroes and I'm sure they both have many devotees here.

 

I almost put Django on there, but left him off for some stupid reason. But yes, to come out of a fire, only being able to use two fingers, and to be able to play like THAT??? :notworthy

[FlaSoxxJim]

Django Reinhardt and Thelonious Monk are my musical heroes and I'm sure they both have many devotees here.

Actually they do, if few and far between. Like Kid, I'm more into Charlie Christian than Django, more for the sheer pioneering aspects of what Charlie was playing and when. But the day an older friend turned me on to both Monk and Mingus was a major day of musical awakening for me.

 

The pioneering jazz greats that made me realize how groundbreaking they were 80+ years ago are Satchmo and Sydney Bichet. Of all of those, only Satch would make my American heroes list.

 

Also on that list would be:

Lewis and Clark

Lincoln

Thomas Edison

Chaplin (apologies to Keaton and Lloyd, Kid)

Walt Disney (even if he was an asshole)

Jesse Owens

Armstrong/Aldrin/Collins

Frank Zappa

Marjorie Stonemann Douglas

Stephen Hawking

Edited May 27, 2005 by FlaSoxxJim

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Ironically... I wasn't even thinking of you. Thanks for the reminder. :dips***

 

[YASNY]

I'm sorry I ever started this thread.

[FlaSoxxJim]

I'm sorry I ever started this thread.

I don't think you should be. Heroes - people who do things others think are courageous and often defy great odds in doing so - come in all stripes.

 

I'd echo Steff's list of heroic occupations - firefighters, police officers, servicemen, etc. - if that was the question. But other than maybe isolating the 9-11 rescue forces, I wouldn't want to single out individuals as heroes over others - Pat Tillman over all of the other fallen US servicemen for example.

 

As for the decidedly non-military hero lists some people might generate, well it's probably equally fair to say Ghandi doesn't make as many lists as he should either. And I realize your request was for American heroes, so this is not applicable here. But on reflection, a pox upon me for not including MLK on my list, so please consider him included as well.

[Kid Gleason]

Ah, that's right, Django was a French Gypsy, and that is why I couldn't have listed him on a thread about "American Heroes"!!! I forgot that part of the title.