Jokers Wild

[Rowand44]

How long do you think Kenny is going to want to keep Cruddy around with how sucky he is?  It's not like Crede is showing any signs of improvement.  In fact, he is getting worse.  Josh Fields is waiting in the wings (not that he's ready yet) and Crede will just get more and more expensive to keep.  He just isn't worth it.  The problem is that you guys think Crede has a bright future.  The realists see how bad he truly is.

Just because you dislike every player here that has struggled doesn't mean your a realist. Now don't get me wrong I'm real down on Crede right now also, however I just don't think kenny is going to go after Randa unless he also has a big name reliever on his mind. If kenny gets a third baseman it's going to be someone better then Joe Randa I'm almost positive unless once again he also has Billy Wagner on his mind. Randa is better then Joe offensively no doubt but the team is still winning and by all accounts all of these guys will run through a wall for each other on this team and it might not be worth it to replace an everday player who is better offensively but it's not a huge jump.

[Guest JimH]

How long do you think Kenny is going to want to keep Cruddy around with how sucky he is?  It's not like Crede is showing any signs of improvement.  In fact, he is getting worse.  Josh Fields is waiting in the wings (not that he's ready yet) and Crede will just get more and more expensive to keep.  He just isn't worth it.  The problem is that you guys think Crede has a bright future.  The realists see how bad he truly is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You are a great one for dividing people into two camps, optimists vs. pessimists as you did yesterday, and now realists vs. those who think Crede has a bright future.

 

That's called generalizing, and you're good at it.

 

May I suggest that nowhere have people been saying Crede has a bright future. I certainly haven't. Personally I think he'll come on a bit offensively but not a whole lot. I think we are looking at .255 and 18 HR's and 70 rbi's and he will not let his offensive struggles affect his defense. Further, I think Guillen and KW will show faith in him because they said they would, and that's their track record.

 

Also, it is highly unlikely KW will deal a starting position player he has under control for a guy who "could" leave at year's end.

 

And if you're frustrated with Crede's progress, take a look at the minor league board or look at Field's backwards progress offensively this year. Not good, and you'd really be going crazy over that.

[Jabroni]

Sounds like adding Joe Randa wouldnt help us out much then huh?  Frank is the best hitter to ever put on a White Sox uniform.  His OBP is still stellar and he will get hits.  If you think that adding him wont help our lineup then you are blinded by your rage.  I agree, Konerko is an automatic double play, but as you said before, established offensive players will recover, and he was on a mini tear there for a while.  We need to get used to the fact that we have some of the streakiest hitters on our team.  How many people on this board were raving about Crede reaching his potential when he was on a tear when the season opened, now the same people are wanting to trade him.  Dye was worthless until a few weeks ago, Uribe still cant hit s***.  The question is, can they get it dont when it matters?  Our record speaks for that right now, and I think KW will do something to improve it if it needs be.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not me.

[Milkman delivers]

Have you read or heard any of the quotes from Guillen or KW about them showing faith in these players?  What does that tell you?

 

It tells me that their faith is misplaced.

[Guest JimH]

I have also heard the one that says that KW will do whatever it takes to win.  This is the guy who traded our starting young catcher and number 1 rated prospect last year early.  KW will make a trade, if you think that this team will stay the same throughout the year then you are too much of a literalist.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Where did I say he wouldn't make a trade?

 

The Garcia trade was late June, was it not? This is late May.

 

He traded for a #2 solid pitcher and locked him up for 3 years shortly thereafter. Gigantic difference from a Joe Randa.

[Guest JimH]

Garland is a young pitcher.  They mature about 26-27.  Crede is a 3rd baseman, he is at the point where he is supposed to be a finished product.  He is regressing if that is possible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Go look at Randa's career stats and see when he blossomed.

[Jabroni]

If you guys don't want to trade Crede, well I hope Kenny just trades prospects for Randa. As long as Crede is sitting on the bench as Randa's backup.

[Rowand44]

Where did I say he wouldn't make a trade?

 

The Garcia trade was late June, was it not?  This is late May.

 

He traded for a #2 solid pitcher and locked him up for 3 years shortly thereafter.  Gigantic difference from a Joe Randa.

Exactly and yes you're right it was late June, right after the last game of the first flub series.

[CWSGuy406]

Garland is a young pitcher.  They mature about 26-27.  Crede is a 3rd baseman, he is at the point where he is supposed to be a finished product.  He is regressing if that is possible.

 

While I don't feel like going back and checking, I doubt you were saying, "Oh, chill out, he's young, he's still going to improve" when Jon was putting up a near-5 ERA last season... Highly doubt it.

[southsideirish71]

Sounds like adding Joe Randa wouldnt help us out much then huh?  Frank is the best hitter to ever put on a White Sox uniform.  His OBP is still stellar and he will get hits.  If you think that adding him wont help our lineup then you are blinded by your rage.  I agree, Konerko is an automatic double play, but as you said before, established offensive players will recover, and he was on a mini tear there for a while.  We need to get used to the fact that we have some of the streakiest hitters on our team.  How many people on this board were raving about Crede reaching his potential when he was on a tear when the season opened, now the same people are wanting to trade him.  Dye was worthless until a few weeks ago, Uribe still cant hit s***.  The question is, can they get it dont when it matters?  Our record speaks for that right now, and I think KW will do something to improve it if it needs be.

 

Are you serious? Do you feel that our offense is ok and you are ready to stick with it.

 

Is that the same record that went under 500 over the last road trip.

 

How many runs should of we scored yesterday with bases loaded 2 times with no one out. How many runs should of we scored with men on 2nd and 3rd with less thant two outs. We got lucky yesterday with some heroics in the bottom of the 9th. Mark should of had a lot more run support than he had. Washburn did everything in his power to give the game to us. We did everything in our power to mess it up. We need more than one spark in our offense than Pods-Gooch-and Rowand.. Our record is cute and all, but we havent been very good over the last few weeks the minute we start to play better teams. Our pitching has been great. My hats off to our staff and the greatness they have done, but come on we need to score more that a few runs to win even with our staff.

 

People were raving about Crede because they thought he had finally turned it around. However we all found out that the hot start was the abberation and this comes back to how he hit last year. You remember his offense last year.

[Guest JimH]

It tells me that their faith is misplaced.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Per you, and you don't run the team.

 

To be blunt, I much prefer to look at what they say and how they've acted before in similar situations.

 

Conclusion? They show faith in their veteran players and let them show what they can and can not do.

 

If they feel there is a need to improve and it will be a better fit for the team and a trade can be made, they'll do it. I highly, highly doubt that trade would be a straight up Crede for Randa swap.

[Frankensteiner]

Have you read or heard any of the quotes from Guillen or KW about them showing faith in these players?  What does that tell you?

 

To me, it says they're going to have faith in these current players, and make any moves if needed closer to the deadline.

 

Wouldn't they almost have to be near retarded to say something like "Yes, we are actively looking for an upgrade over Joe Crede"? I'm sure Kenny would like to retain at least some bargaining power. Or if he can't succeed in securing an upgrade, he might want Crede to have some confidence left.

 

Just looking back at these 8 pages, I can't believe we're arguing about the merits of keeping a 3B working on his second straight sub-.240 BA, and sub-.300 OBP season. About the only prevailing argument seems to be that he's cheap, which isn't much of an argument at all.

[RockRaines]

Where did I say he wouldn't make a trade?

 

The Garcia trade was late June, was it not?  This is late May.

 

He traded for a #2 solid pitcher and locked him up for 3 years shortly thereafter.  Gigantic difference from a Joe Randa.

Freddy would have commanded millions in the offseason that year too if KW hadnt made that great trade and sign. Its different from Randa who didnt really have an suitors and got a one year deal.

[Guest JimH]

If you guys don't want to trade Crede, well I hope Kenny just trades prospects for Randa.  As long as Crede is sitting on the bench as Randa's backup.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It doesn't matter what anyone on this board wants or thinks is right.

 

The earliest KW has made a big deal is late June. They both want to show faith in their players, they're doing that.

 

But don't think for a second they aren't concerned about the underachieving offense, they are. Especially after yesterday.

[Jabroni]

Just because you dislike every player here that has struggled doesn't mean your a realist.  Now don't get me wrong I'm real down on Crede right now also, however I just don't think kenny is going to go after Randa unless he also has a big name reliever on his mind.  If kenny gets a third baseman it's going to be someone better then Joe Randa I'm almost positive unless once again he also has Billy Wagner on his mind.  Randa is better then Joe offensively no doubt but the team is still winning and by all accounts all of these guys will run through a wall for each other on this team and it might not be worth it to replace an everday player who is better offensively but it's not a huge jump.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not a huge jump offensively? Are you nuts?

 

Joe Crede (2005 stats)

160 AB

.225 AVG

.285 OBP

.350 SLG

.635 OPS

4 HR

17 RBI

10 BB

25 SO

 

Joe Randa (2005 stats)

165 AB

.291 AVG

.369 OBP

.461 SLG

.830 OPS

5 HR

27 RBI

20 BB

26 SO

 

That IS a huge jump.

Edited May 31, 2005 by Jabroni

[RockRaines]

It doesn't matter what anyone on this board wants or thinks is right.

 

The earliest KW has made a big deal is late June.  They both want to show faith in their players, they're doing that.

 

But don't think for a second they aren't concerned about the underachieving offense, they are.  Especially after yesterday.

You bet KW has been on the phone with someone feeling out their interest in dealing. KW always is looking for improvements, and this year, the offense is going to command any successful GM's attention. With our minor league system gaining back some serious prospects, im sure lots of teams would like their hands on them. I think this year we not only have a good team on the field, but LOTS of bargaining chips in our system. I hope we push to make this THE year.

[Guest JimH]

Wouldn't they almost have to be near retarded to say something like "Yes, we are actively looking for an upgrade over Joe Crede"? I'm sure Kenny would like to retain at least some bargaining power. Or if he can't succeed in securing an upgrade, he might want Crede to have some confidence left.

 

Just looking back at these 8 pages, I can't believe we're arguing about the merits of keeping a 3B working on his second straight sub-.240 BA, and sub-.300 OBP season. About the only prevailing argument seems to be that he's cheap, which isn't much of an argument at all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You are right, they wouldn't come out and say it. Unless your name is Jon Rauch that is.

 

Crede being affordable is only a small factor. He's extremely durable and with a team built on pitching, his defense is definitely part of the equation. Randa has not been durable lately. Bad back, bad foot, arthro on his knee ... Not knocking him at all but it's true.

[Rowand44]

Randa's a .280ish hitter while Joe is a .240-.250ish hitter. That's not a HUGE jump especially when team chemistry and defense are taken into account. I'm a big Joe Randa fan but Kenny is going to look for a big upgrade not just Joe Randa.

Edited May 31, 2005 by Rowand44

[southsideirish71]

Go look at Randa's career stats and see when he blossomed.

 

Now you are reaching.

 

Crede has been in the majors for more than a year.

 

Only 2 times Randa batted under 280.

 

In his first 2 years he batted .303 and .302. When Crede has any track record please let us know.

[Jabroni]

Wouldn't they almost have to be near retarded to say something like "Yes, we are actively looking for an upgrade over Joe Crede"? I'm sure Kenny would like to retain at least some bargaining power. Or if he can't succeed in securing an upgrade, he might want Crede to have some confidence left.

 

Just looking back at these 8 pages, I can't believe we're arguing about the merits of keeping a 3B working on his second straight sub-.240 BA, and sub-.300 OBP season. About the only prevailing argument seems to be that he's cheap, which isn't much of an argument at all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is what is making me laugh my ass off. Hey, he may suck ass BUT HE'S CHEAP SO LET'S KEEP HIM!!!

Edited May 31, 2005 by Jabroni

[southsideirish71]

Randa's a .270ish hitter while Joe is a .240-.250ish hitter.  That's not a HUGE jump especially when team chemistry and defense are taken into account.  I'm a big Joe Randa fan but Kenny is going to look for a big upgrade not just Joe Randa.

 

Randa over the last few years.

 

2005 .291 BA

2004 .287 BA

2003 .291 BA

2002 .281 BA

 

Yeah I see how that and Crede are almost the same. And again can you review the defensive stats before you blindly just say his defense is better than Randa's.

[Rowand44]

Randa over the last few years.

 

2005 .291 BA

2004 .287 BA

2003 .291 BA

2002 .281  BA

 

Yeah I see how that and Crede are almost the same.  And again can you review the defensive stats before you blindly just say his defense is better than Randa's.

Ya, I changed my post about his average and I don't give a crap what his defensive stats say, I've watched Randa play for years and Crede's a better defender, period.

[Guest JimH]

Now you are reaching. 

 

Crede  has been in the majors for more than a year.

 

Only 2 times Randa batted under 280. 

 

In his first 2 years  he batted .303 and .302.  When Crede has any track record please let us know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You commented that 3B have reached their potential by 27 or so, and Crede is regressing.

 

Again, when did Randa blossom? Please let us know.

 

I will comment if you don't want to look it up, but since you're looking the numbers up I presume you can see at what age Randa blossomed into a consistent offensive player, and don't forget to put that year he hit .254 in there.

Hint, he hit his stride in 2000 and has been fairly consistent since then.

[RockRaines]

Not a huge jump offensively?  Are you nuts?

 

Joe Crede (2005 stats)

160 AB

.225 AVG

.285 OBP

.350 SLG

.635 OPS

4 HR

17 RBI

10 BB

25 SO

 

Joe Randa (2005 stats)

165 AB

.291 AVG

.369 OBP

.461 SLG

.830 OPS

5 HR

27 RBI

20 BB

26 SO

 

That IS a huge jump.

 

 

It looks to me like he's hurt, no Hr's this month rouhly100 point drop off for OBP SLG, and 180 from OPS and only 3 walks this month vs 14 in April. He's also listed as doubtful for next game. He is, however, great in the last three months of the year pretty consistantly.

[nitetrain8601]

Holy smokes.

 

Let me preface all of this by saying I have a great respect for Randa.

 

First of all, Randa was a FA after last year and I didn't see all kinds of teams lining up to get him.  He ended up in Cincy, hardly a prime FA destination.  One of the reasons why is Randa has a chronic bad back and is 35.  He is currently suffering from a badly bruised foot, and it's possible that will dog him through the year. 

 

Second, it's May.  The team is doing well but I agree can be improved.  You guys want to make a trade every week, Sox management - although stubborn at times - prefers to show faith in their players.  Showing faith in players generally equals good chemistry which generally plays a part in helping teams win.

 

Third, Crede is not hurting the team defensively.

 

Fourth, and I know people are tired of hearing about this in our short attention span world of "I want it, and I want it right now" ... Crede is 27, Randa 35.  There is still a chance Crede will improve, even though no one wants to hear it or even consider it as a possibility.  I'm as frustrated with his offense as all you are but I see the value in patience and not making a major trade.  You guys have had the following players traded or released so far this year:  Dye, Konerko, Crede, Harris, Everett, Contreras, Perez, Cotts, Vizcaino, and others.  Every week (every day?) it's somebody else who "sucks" or needs his ass shipped out.  That's knee jerk reacting, especially on the last day of May with the team in 1st place.

 

Fifth, whether we like it or not, KW and Guillen love to show faith in their players.  They made these decisions in March and two months later they are not inclined to 180 degree turn on those decisions.  To me, that's smart ... especially since the team is doing pretty well.  If Sox management followed all your guys advice, these players would play with zero confidence ... they'd all be playing afraid to get traded.  I know some of you will suggest that's BS, but I'll stand by that.

 

Lastly, the trade market will heat up this month and next.  KW and Guillen will see where they're at and what they need ... AFTER giving these guys who are mostly veterans a chance to work through things.

 

Every week Guillen makes a statement about showing faith in players.  KW and Reinsdorf give Guillen an extension so it stands to reason they agree with showing faith in their players too.

 

Of course there can be improvements, but I see KW adding to the team vs. changing out a key position like 3B.  And by the way, I do not think adding some salary is a problem for the White Sox, i.e. I don't think they'd be afraid to add Randa's contract which I believe is a 2 yr. deal.  But I don't think they feel it's the right move to trade Crede for Randa.  Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think so.

 

Now ... if something happens to Crede I'm in your camp.  Get on the phone and get Randa.

 

I agree strongly with this. I remember how people were calling for Contreras to be traded after one outing. Harris has been good for us and so have the others. Everyone has contributed at least a couple times this season and some of the fans are so quick to jump on someone and ask management to trade or wiave their ass. It seems as if this game isn't perfect for one day someone has to be traded. Newsflash, not even the Yankees are perfect. KW will wait to see what impact Frank has on the team. I say by late June, you'll start getting ideas of who actually has a chance of being traded. Trade Contreras posts were funny though.

 

Any possible way that a rant thread could be stickied so all ludicrous trades and b****ing about players could be put in there?