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QUOTE(RockRaines @ May 31, 2005 -> 01:17 PM)
Its going to cost a prospect, no team would just take that trade straight up.

 

The Reds are going to have a fire-sale. They want money off the books, and this will do just that. I also said that it might take a prospect, but not a very good one.

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QUOTE(RockRaines @ May 31, 2005 -> 12:02 PM)
Another insightful post from an exciting new member.... :headshake

 

Crede's fielding is underappreciated, he makes tough plays look easy and makes alot of plays that other 3B dont even look at.  Look no further than the other side of town to see how terrible a fielder a 3B can be.  As far as chemistry, see our record this year, and our double play count as compared to other teams.  We turn more of them, and one of the reasons is that the infielders work well with each other.  How much difference would getting Joe Randa make?  WE would give up alot for him,and be bascially replacing our #8 hitter.  As far as where Joe fits into our lineup, being that he is an EXTREMELY reliable fielder, and a good #8 hitter with power, I dont think its neccessary to replace him.  Unless you are talking about Chavez, Crede will be our 3B the rest of the year.

 

Crede turns the dp primarily with Iguchi, who he has only been playing with for a couple of months. I get the feeling Randa would be just as effective, with a short adjustment period. What drives me nuts about Crede is his wasted at bats. He doesn't move or drive in runners. He never adjusts his swing to the situation.

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QUOTE(I-HATE-CREDE @ May 31, 2005 -> 01:18 PM)
CrackrockRaines, every other weak spot in the line-up is filled by a guy that has actually experienced offensive success in the major leagues, save for wherever Crede is batting on that particular day.  There is a reasonable expectation that they will all hit at some point this season, again, exept for Crede.  His stellar fielding doesn't make up for his .302 career on-base-percentage.

 

All right dude, I know you are new here and all... but stop the name calling now. Its not wanted, funny, or allowed. Consider this your friendly warning.

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QUOTE(RockRaines @ May 31, 2005 -> 12:15 PM)
Aramis is a horrible defensive 3B, his fielding is bad on a slow infield and his throws are only saved by a gold glove first baseman.  As for Mora and Blalock, I would take either one over Crede any day of the week of course.

 

LOL, Anus Ramirez has a better fielding percentage than Cruddy and a better Range factor.

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Unfortunately, it's gotten to the point where I'm actually surprised when Crede comes through with a clutch hit.

Thankfully, he hasn't taken his offensive ineptitude out to his position on the field. He still contributes defensively, but the Sox need more than that from him. They're not deep enough offensively to carry that weak of a bat at a power position.

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QUOTE(shakes @ May 31, 2005 -> 06:21 PM)
What drives me nuts about Crede is his wasted at bats. He doesn't move or drive in runners. He never adjusts his swing to the situation.

 

 

It all relates back to Crede being an easy out. I'm shocked, and happy, with how he laid off some close pitches in the 9th inning last night. But he rarely shows that type of presence at the plate. Compared to Randa, who seems like such a tough out in big situations. How many times did our pitchers have 10 pitch at-bats against him in a big situation, only for him to eventually walk or line a single to right field?

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QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ May 31, 2005 -> 12:18 PM)
I like this guy^

He makes a good point, I just dont think its worth all that much to bring Randa in, when we are going to have to give up something other than just Crede. And if we see that Crede isnt worth a damn, do you think that other teams wont see that as well? Im not saying that Crede is the long term answer, but one of the main reason the team, and our pitching staff (Garland) is doing so well is the defense, so im not that worried about the offense from the bottom of the order at this point. I would like to see what adding Frank does to the middle of the order, and wait and see what big player KW has in mind before the break. (cause you know there is something) I really wish the Chavez rumor was true. :pray

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Unfortunately, it's gotten to the point where I'm actually surprised when Crede comes through with a clutch hit.

Thankfully, he hasn't taken his offensive ineptitude out to his position on the field. He still contributes defensively, but the Sox need more than that from him. They're not deep enough offensively to carry that weak of a bat at a power position.

 

 

You've seen a Crede clutch hit? Did you video tape it for posterity's sake?

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QUOTE(Jabroni @ May 31, 2005 -> 12:23 PM)
Well, the question you guys have to ask is...

 

Does the difference between Randa's bat and Crede's outweigh the difference between Randa's glove and Crede's?  I think it does.

 

 

I dont understand where people get the idea that Crede is automatically a much better defensive 3rd baseman than Randa or others. Yes he lays out for a ball from time to time. But I go by fielding percentage and RF. Randa is better in both. That plus the stick make this an open and closed case.

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Guest JimH
Well, the question you guys have to ask is...

 

Does the difference between Randa's bat and Crede's outweigh the difference between Randa's glove and Crede's?  I think it does.

 

The Reds would jump all over a straight up Crede for Randa trade.

 

The White Sox wouldn't. And no, I am not a big fan of Crede. I appreciate his defense but he's a mess offensively.

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QUOTE(JimH @ May 31, 2005 -> 12:26 PM)
The Reds would jump all over a straight up Crede for Randa trade.

 

The White Sox wouldn't.  And no, I am not a big fan of Crede.  I appreciate his defense but he's a mess offensively.

 

The reds are trying to clear payroll.

 

Crede as a B prospect gets it done.

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The Reds would jump all over a straight up Crede for Randa trade.

 

The White Sox wouldn't.  And no, I am not a big fan of Crede.  I appreciate his defense but he's a mess offensively.

I would trade Crede for Randa in a second. What good is Crede to us right now? We are trying to win this season, aren't we?

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He makes a good point, I just dont think its worth all that much to bring Randa in, when we are going to have to give up something other than just Crede.

 

No you won't. The Reds would take a younger, cheaper player any time over an older player that makes 4 times as much money

 

 

And if we see that Crede isnt worth a damn, do you think that other teams wont see that as well?

 

They could believe a change of scenery is needed, or maybe their coach sees something in him they can fix, or simply a low-risk salary dump.

 

Im not saying that Crede is the long term answer, but one of the main reason the team, and our pitching staff (Garland) is doing so well is the defense, so im not that worried about the offense from the bottom of the order at this point.

 

Randa's defense is not much worse than Crede's. It's OK if Crede wasn't an offensive star, because he is an 8th-9th place hitter. But, it's that his at-bats are usually wasted if he isn't hitting because he rarely walks, can't hit with 2 strikes, doesn't run well, doesn't move runners, strikes out a lot, etc.

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QUOTE(RockRaines @ May 31, 2005 -> 01:23 PM)
He makes a good point, I just dont think its worth all that much to bring Randa in, when we are going to have to give up something other than just Crede.  And if we see that Crede isnt worth a damn, do you think that other teams wont see that as well?  Im not saying that Crede is the long term answer, but one of the main reason the team, and our pitching staff (Garland) is doing so well is the defense, so im not that worried about the offense from the bottom of the order at this point.  I would like to see what adding Frank does to the middle of the order, and wait and see what big player KW has in mind before the break.  (cause you know there is something)  I really wish the Chavez rumor was true. :pray

 

It wouldn't be a very good prospect at all. Just some marginal guy, that's my belief. The Reds are seriously looking to free up money on the books. If they do this trade, they let Crede finish out this year and plug in a minor leaguer next year.

 

And Randa has a better fielding percentage and range factor.

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QUOTE(Wong & Owens @ May 31, 2005 -> 12:28 PM)
No you won't.  The Reds would take a younger, cheaper player any time over an older player that makes 4 times as much money

They could believe a change of scenery is needed, or maybe their coach sees something in him they can fix, or simply a low-risk salary dump.

Randa's defense is not much worse than Crede's.  It's OK if Crede wasn't an offensive star, because he is an 8th-9th place hitter.  But, it's that his at-bats are usually wasted if he isn't hitting because he rarely walks, can't hit with 2 strikes, doesn't run well, doesn't move runners, strikes out a lot, etc.

All speculation though. When it comes down to it, if you are the Reds GM, and your team is floundering, and your fan base is turning against your moves the past two years, do you make a trade straight up, and how does that help your club. You are taking Crede, who has Bora$$ as his agent, and has not performed well in the majors. Or you could hold on to Randa until the end of the year when a contender will give up alot for a good 3B and a bat going in the stretch run. It doesnt make sense to me. We are going to have to agree to disagree. Because I think, if KW makes a move, its going to be a big one that DRASTICALLY helps the club.

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QUOTE(I-HATE-CREDE @ May 31, 2005 -> 12:30 PM)
Still, you'd like to have proof that you witnessd it.

 

 

The clutch hits last year all happened due to Crede hitting a breaking pitch with two strikes on him. This was due to the hitch in his swing, they would get two easy fastball strikes on him and then would get too much of the plate with a down and in curve. His hitch and his slow bat were perfect for these types of ptiches. This year they are going up the ladder on him or are going away with the slider.

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I am just shocked that some people wouldn't trade Crede for Randa. There is no way that the supposed downgrade in defense from Crede to Randa outweighs the huge upgrade in offense from Crede to Randa.

Edited by Jabroni
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QUOTE(RockRaines @ May 31, 2005 -> 12:32 PM)
All speculation though.  When it comes down to it, if you are the Reds GM, and your team is floundering, and your fan base is turning against your moves the past two years, do you make a trade straight up, and how does that help your club.  You are taking Crede, who has Bora$$ as his agent, and has not performed well in the majors.  Or you could hold on to Randa until the end of the year when a contender will give up alot for a good 3B and a bat going in the stretch run.  It doesnt make sense to me.  We are going to have to agree to disagree.  Because I think, if KW makes a move, its going to be a big one that DRASTICALLY helps the club.

 

KW makes moves early. KW also makes moves that help the team. I have a feeling that KW will get someone to help with this. Randa makes sense. He is a vet who has played in the AL Central. He is a good 2 strike hitter.

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