Capitalism vs. Socialism

[1549]

In my history class we had a long discussion about the 2 different types of system.

 

Without getting into too much detail at this juncture I will simply state that I am terribly confused about how an educated human like Apu would ever choose Socialism over Capitalism. For example: A socialist president is elected, he decides that it is necessary to force all american corporations to set up their factories in the U.S., Nike now has to pay its employees 5.50 instead of 1.00 because of the move. Now Nike starts losing money, then their shoes aren't designed as well, soon Nike loses money owners decide it isn't worth it, Nike goes under. Soon this happens everywhere, before you know it we are buying government made shoes. This happens everywhere and the government loses money, all while technology develops slower in a market lacking competition...soon our government is in financial trouble and the socialist U.S. collapses, now our country has to start over.

 

In conclusion why choose anything but capitalism?

[LowerCaseRepublican]

That is the capitalist critique of socialism. Very unbalanced if your teacher only gave that one side.

 

Nike already makes obscene profits. Let's say we pay the minimum wage $ 5.15. So that is an 8 hour day which is approx. $43 per day. That is about $200 per week BEFORE taxes. Even with that increase in work, most of the profits are used in advertising departments, not in wages.

 

The key aspect in socialism is that the state does control industry. With state control, the corporation is not supposed to be profit driven so they will not shut down. Higher wages paid out to workers makes the greater possibility for higher taxes and social programs like health care, etc. etc. etc.

 

If you would like the socialist critique of capitalism, I would ask you to look at Bolivia in the 1990s when Bechtel pritatized the Bolivian water supply and also the happenings in Chile for the past 20 or so years. They did everything the WTO, IMF, and World Bank told them according to the top laissez faire capitalist economists in the world and it ran their economies into the ground. "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy" by Greg Palast is one book to look into for this sort of information.

 

Neither system is absolutely perfect but this class based hierarchy driven on hate and utilizing other's problems to your advantage is not only inhuman, but it's sickening. Capitalism is not the answer to the world's problems. A system that could incorporate aspects of both would be ideal but with NAFTA etc. (ask RPS about the good jobs going to foreign countries because of lower wages and how great capitalism is because of that) and the fact that unions have lost much of their bargaining power because of NAFTA and temp work, labor is yet again being crushed. They cannot fight back in this current capitalist society.

[1549]

That is the capitalist critique of socialism. Very unbalanced if your teacher only gave that one side.

 

Nike already makes obscene profits. Let's say we pay the minimum wage $ 5.15. So that is an 8 hour day which is approx. $43 per day. That is about $200 per week BEFORE taxes. Even with that increase in work, most of the profits are used in advertising departments, not in wages.

 

The key aspect in socialism is that the state does control industry. With state control, the corporation is not supposed to be profit driven so they will not shut down. Higher wages paid out to workers makes the greater possibility for higher taxes and social programs like health care, etc. etc. etc.

 

If you would like the socialist critique of capitalism, I would ask you to look at Bolivia in the 1990s when Bechtel pritatized the Bolivian water supply and also the happenings in Chile for the past 20 or so years. They did everything the WTO, IMF, and World Bank told them according to the top laissez faire capitalist economists in the world and it ran their economies into the ground. "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy" by Greg Palast is one book to look into for this sort of information.

 

Neither system is absolutely perfect but this class based hierarchy driven on hate and utilizing other's problems to your advantage is not only inhuman, but it's sickening. Capitalism is not the answer to the world's problems. A system that could incorporate aspects of both would be ideal but with NAFTA etc. (ask RPS about the good jobs going to foreign countries because of lower wages and how great capitalism is because of that) and the fact that unions have lost much of their bargaining power because of NAFTA and temp work, labor is yet again being crushed. They cannot fight back in this current capitalist society.

 

My history teacher only told us about the facts of both Capitalism and Socialism, I came up with the Nike analysis.

 

As for state controlled industry, it is crap because it takes competition out of the market, and competition is what drives a successful economy.

 

As for state controlled health care, I believe that state controlled health care is terrible in Canada.

 

The only socialist concept that makes sense is anti-trust laws.

 

As for our current 'hierarchy', there is no cure for it. There will always be a rich and a poor. As time goes on though our culture will become less and less race oriented, we are already a more diverse culture and more accepting of others than we probably were 30 years ago. You can hear a pleasant serman on the aspect of rich and poor in "Enemy At the Gate" when Viscilli's friend is about to offer his life to the opposing snipers bullet

 

It seems to me that most people that share your views, Apu, are also Government concpiracy theorists, believing that the conservatives have set up a terrible insider system similar to that in the matrix (not that we are all batteries, but that there are evil agents preventing us from finding answers). Yet it is you conspiracy theorists that want to enlarge the government, it just doesn't make sense to me. Oh well, maybe you can enlighten me with your reasoning

[LowerCaseRepublican]

My history teacher only told us about the facts of both Capitalism and Socialism, I came up with the Nike analysis.

 

As for state controlled industry, it is crap because it takes competition out of the market, and competition is what drives a successful economy.

 

As for state controlled health care, I believe that state controlled health care is terrible in Canada.

 

The only socialist concept that makes sense is anti-trust laws.

 

As for our current 'hierarchy', there is no cure for it.  There will always be a rich and a poor.  As time goes on though our culture will become less and less race oriented, we are already a more diverse culture and more accepting of others than we probably were 30 years ago.  You can hear a pleasant serman on the aspect of rich and poor in "Enemy At the Gate" when Viscilli's friend is about to offer his life to the opposing snipers bullet

 

It seems to me that most people that share your views, Apu, are also Government concpiracy theorists, believing that the conservatives have set up a terrible insider system similar to that in the matrix (not that we are all batteries, but that there are evil agents preventing us from finding answers).  Yet it is you conspiracy theorists that want to enlarge the government, it just doesn't make sense to me.  Oh well, maybe you can enlighten me with your reasoning

Let's see what competition in the market has gotten us:

*250,000+ US jobs lost because of NAFTA and cheaper wages overseas

*sweatshop labor throughout the world

*real wages since the 1970s have decreased, not increased (that's real spending power taking inflation and the such into account)

*we privatized electricity to "stimulate competition" in the market because, according to game theory, prices were supposed to decrease. the result = ENRON

*we have gotten rid of the most versatile plant on the planet that can make paper, clothes, rope, food, etc...and that is hemp because DuPont's, Kimberly Clark, and Hearst Paper Manufacturing's corporate interests in oil and timber

*capitalism has gotten us our good friends the WTO that have screwed up so many South American and African countries that they are so deep in debt, it'll take them decades to get out

*Manpower Inc. in 2000 was the #1 employer in the world. it is a place that employs temp workers. Temp workers can't effectively form unions to combat management

*McDonalds and Wal-Mart....2 of America's largest employers....how many unions there? ZERO

Walton was even quoted as telling a Wal-Mart that wanted to unionize a quote to the effect of "Unionize and I'll f*** you up"

 

Capitalism has gotten us to balance the economy on the backs of the poor while the rich are getting lots of money. Due to NAFTA and temp jobs, workers cannot unionize and lose bargaining power and are effectively crushed in this neoliberal global system.

 

You want to talk shambles of health care? Look no further than the US, my friend. There are millions denied health care here. Then we can get into HMO's. It's fun when people with no medical degrees say that people don't "NEED" operations that if they don't get, will kill them.

[DonkeyKongerko]

Capitalism = Freedom. This is because capitalism in the strictest of all definitions is freedom. It has been warped in our minds because of years flourishing in the West only. This has combined with greed to create the corruption of "Big Business" Capitalism in the US today.

 

Socialism is not any better an answer. Unless you can guarantee socialism without greed. As I like to say, there is no such thing as altruism. As long as the majority of humans are inherently self-interested, there is no feasible way to solve the problems of class stratification.

[1549]

*250,000+ US jobs lost because of NAFTA and cheaper wages overseas

*sweatshop labor throughout the world

*real wages since the 1970s have decreased, not increased (that's real spending power taking inflation and the such into account)

 

I cant really argue these points except to say that we are in a recession, but without statistics from 1999, I can't prove if that is the cause to some of your problems. As for NAFTA, I was reading the Preamble of the NAFTA secretariat. Nothing in it said that unions should be discarded or that s***...I recommend that you take a glance at it.

 

*we privatized electricity to "stimulate competition" in the market because, according to game theory, prices were supposed to decrease. the result = ENRON

*we have gotten rid of the most versatile plant on the planet that can make paper, clothes, rope, food, etc...and that is hemp because DuPont's, Kimberly Clark, and Hearst Paper Manufacturing's corporate interests in oil and timber

 

privatizing electricity does enhance competition, the minute you have multiple companies ultimately performing the same task. Enron is a bad example, because corruption can occur in any system, and in any corporation, the problems in California would have made a better example for you arguement. As for the plant you are talking about...I am not sure what it is. We cant eat trees, and there still are trees, so you have to throw me a bone.

 

*capitalism has gotten us our good friends the WTO that have screwed up so many South American and African countries that they are so deep in debt, it'll take them decades to get out

*Manpower Inc. in 2000 was the #1 employer in the world. it is a place that employs temp workers. Temp workers can't effectively form unions to combat management

*McDonalds and Wal-Mart....2 of America's largest employers....how many unions there? ZERO

Walton was even quoted as telling a Wal-Mart that wanted to unionize a quote to the effect of "Unionize and I'll f*** you up"

 

South America and Africa should choose their own governments, let them be socialist...we should concentrate on keeping out evil dictators...their big boys they can make decisions.

 

If their temp. why do they need a union...there not going to keep their jobs anyway, and its not like there being put to work on slave ships or something, there work isn't so bad as they need to sue for better conditions, I believe many even get employed in desk jobs.

 

the workers there can form unions if they need to...they can't be chicken s*** of some guy that says "I'll f*** you up"...especially when he can't do that if they get unionized. I worked as a custodian last summer, and i hated the fricken custodian union, because they took money out of my paycheck and they didn't do jack s***...they didn't even come talk to us.

 

Capitalism has gotten us to balance the economy on the backs of the poor while the rich are getting lots of money. Due to NAFTA and temp jobs, workers cannot unionize and lose bargaining power and are effectively crushed in this neoliberal global system.

 

what country country doesn't have bad jobs and good jobs? I already adressed the NAFTA and temp jobs. Unions are overrated...unless you don't get benefits from your job

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Privatization. Let's take another example. Bechtel in Bolivia in 1999-2000.

Bolivia, under the advisement of the WTO, was told to privatize their water. They did. Bechtel purchased it for a whole $0 (Bechtel promised to build a dam, but never did) but they did raise the monthly water bill over 250% (so now 1 month of water was 3 times the yearly wage of over 80% of the Bolivian work force) The Bolivians rioted and Bechtel had to pull out.

 

Oh yeah, If you ever check out www.gregpalast.com or Greg Palast (he is a journalist from the States but had to go to England to publish stuff since CBS and the Corporate Media won't touch stuff critical of corporations)'s book "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy", it goes into great detail about this topic.

 

The plant was hemp. Industrial hemp is the strongest natural fiber on the face of the earth. Hemp seeds you can get and absorb more protein from hemp seeds than you can from soybeans. Also, hemp produces 4 times as much paper per acre at 1/5 the cost and pollution than for trees. You can also get 4 times as much fuel from hemp stems than you can from a corn stalk for gasahol/methanol.

 

South America and Africa can't get money to establish governments unless they go the IMF and WTO. These "lily white" economists have run their countries into the ground where they now owe, in cases, over 4 times their GDP to pay off the INTEREST of the loans.

 

The creation of temp work has destroyed unions. Many temps are in jobs for over 10+ years (you should look at the NBC cameramen for one...they have said that they are temps for 12 years and more) They get paid less, no benefits, etc. And if they complain? They are out of a job. Just like with the installation of NAFTA. In a poll after NAFTA came out, I believe it was 73% of corporations said that they would use a threat to move jobs to Mexico as a way to squash a possible union action.

 

If you have read "Fast Food Nation" by Eric Schlosser, one McDonald's did unionize. The company closed it rather than deal with the union. That was Walton's threat with Wal-Mart and that was how he was going to "f*** them up".

 

Unions are a right according to law. The fact I am trying to state is that this crushing of labor is not only tragic but illegal. And nothing is going to be done about it because the corporations have the politicians in their pockets.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Capitalism = Freedom.  This is because capitalism in the strictest of all definitions is freedom.  It has been warped in our minds because of years flourishing in the West only.  This has combined with greed to create the corruption of "Big Business" Capitalism in the US today.

 

Socialism is not any better an answer.  Unless you can guarantee socialism without greed.  As I like to say, there is no such thing as altruism.  As long as the majority of humans are inherently self-interested, there is no feasible way to solve the problems of class stratification.

With state control for all industry, there is no incentive for greed since nobody will be seeing the profits.

[1549]

With state control for all industry, there is no incentive for greed since nobody will be seeing the profits.

 

Thats the problem...because people want to see the profits, then corruption will begin.