Durbin compares servicemen to Nazi's

[southsider2k5]

http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/

[Jabroni]

Who's the bigger idiot -- Durbin or Blagojevich? It's a toss-up.

[FlaSoxxJim]

It's Taranto's sensationalist reporting (or whoever it origianetd from) that is putting words in his mouth.

 

Durbin's actual quote: "If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime--Pol Pot or others--that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners.""

 

And again, it is the messenger being skewered, but nevermind the message.

Edited June 16, 2005 by FlaSoxxJim

[southsider2k5]

Of course he is being misinterpreted. :rolly

[FlaSoxxJim]

Of course he is being misinterpreted. :rolly

Of course he is. Read what he said.

 

[southsider2k5]

Of course he is.  Read what he said.

 

 

I read it. Trust me. As usual he has a D behind his name so he is just being misinterpreted. I guess the Democrats are the only ones who can use the Nazi comparision and get away with it these days. And as usual people we are bending over backwards to say that isn't what he meant, when his words are pretty clear. Trust me if it had been Bill Frist who had said the samething we would have judiciary committees investigating it, and headlines all accross the country about it. Its a joke.

[Rex Kickass]

Yeah, because Congress has been all about investigating Republicans lately.

[Texsox]

Southsider is a prolific writer, but he's no Jay Mariotti.

 

Headline: Tex Compares Southsider to Mariotti

 

I believe many Americans were shocked to learn some of the methods we employ to save lives, give American style democracy to the world, etc.

[Rex Kickass]

More context: Here's the full relevant quote:

 

When you read some of the graphic descriptions of what has occurred here [at Guantanamo Bay]--I almost hesitate to put them in the [Congressional] Record, and yet they have to be added to this debate. Let me read to you what one FBI agent saw. And I quote from his report:

 

On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water. Most times they urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18-24 hours or more. On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold. . . . On another occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night. On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day before, with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor.

 

If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime--Pol Pot or others--that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners.

[southsider2k5]

More context: Here's the full relevant quote:

 

Yeah silly me what was I thinking. He wasn't comparing servicement to Nazi's at all. Only George Bush is a Nazi. I should know better than that by now.

[FlaSoxxJim]

And it all begs the question of what Durbin's detractors here think the answer to his hypothetical should be.

 

If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly think to yourself, 'Hell yeah! That's the way to do it. Boy why can't Americans take care of business like that?'.

 

Because there's nothing alarming about the message. It's only the messengers causing the problems.

 

Obviously it is only important to say we're better than the rest of the world. We don't actually have to be better than the rest of the world.

[YASNY]

So those poor mistreated terrorists, that want to kill YOU were uncomfortable. Damn! What's the world coming to?

[Balta1701]

I read it.  Trust me.  As usual he has a D behind his name so he is just being misinterpreted.  I guess the Democrats are the only ones who can use the Nazi comparision and get away with it these days.  And as usual people we are bending over backwards to say that isn't what he meant, when his words are pretty clear.  Trust me if it had been Bill Frist who had said the samething we would have judiciary committees investigating it, and headlines all accross the country about it.  Its a joke.

 

Well, there sure weren't any investigations, or even much press coverage, when Rick Santorum called the Democrats Nazis for blocking judicial nominations.

[Balta1701]

So those poor mistreated terrorists, that want to kill YOU were uncomfortable.  Damn! What's the world coming to?

 

Of course, given that many of them aren't actually terrorists...that most of the people who have been at Gitmo have never been charged or tried with a crime, and most importantly, that many of them were simply rounded up for rewards, it's slightly wrong to call them terrorists.

 

What actually happened was that when the U.S. went into Afghanistan, we put up big rewards for anyone who would turn in an Al Qaeda suspect. So, the Afghan people started pointing fingers at each other in droves...entirely for the reward money. And since the U.S. had absolutely no way of filtering out which ones were AQ affiliates and which weren't, people were just rounded up and sent away to Gitmo. This was the conclusion of a 2002 CIA report that was leaked to the NYT in 2004.

[YASNY]

Of course, given that many of them aren't actually terrorists...that most of the people who have been at Gitmo have never been charged or tried with a crime, and most importantly, that many of them were simply rounded up for rewards, it's slightly wrong to call them terrorists.

 

What actually happened was that when the U.S. went into Afghanistan, we put up big rewards for anyone who would turn in an Al Qaeda suspect.  So, the Afghan people started pointing fingers at each other in droves...entirely for the reward money.  And since the U.S. had absolutely no way of filtering out which ones were AQ affiliates and which weren't, people were just rounded up and sent away to Gitmo.  This was the conclusion of a 2002 CIA report that was leaked to the NYT in 2004.

 

OK. I'll give you that. They have to filter through these people. But, you are assuming that all Gitmo detainees are being treated to this outlandish degree of (gasp!) discomfort. We have extracted intelligence that may be the very reason you are still alive today. But, then, that's neither here nor there.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Of course, given that many of them aren't actually terrorists...that most of the people who have been at Gitmo have never been charged or tried with a crime, and most importantly, that many of them were simply rounded up for rewards, it's slightly wrong to call them terrorists.

 

What actually happened was that when the U.S. went into Afghanistan, we put up big rewards for anyone who would turn in an Al Qaeda suspect.  So, the Afghan people started pointing fingers at each other in droves...entirely for the reward money.  And since the U.S. had absolutely no way of filtering out which ones were AQ affiliates and which weren't, people were just rounded up and sent away to Gitmo.  This was the conclusion of a 2002 CIA report that was leaked to the NYT in 2004.

Yes, but as NUKE has repeatedly pointed out, once the suspects are determined to not be a threat or a source of information they are set free so no harm no foul, right Sure it's taken more than TWO YEARS in many cases to come to these conclusions, but what the hell are they whining about?

 

I declined to use green in the above because it's nowhere near green enough to convey what I think of that off-hand dismissal of the situation.

[YASNY]

Yes, but as NUKE has repeatedly pointed out, once the suspects are determined to not be a threat or a source of information they are set free so no harm no foul, right  Sure it's taken more than TWO YEARS in many cases to come to these conclusions, but what the hell are they whining about?

 

I declined to use green in the above because it's nowhere near green enough to convey what I think of that off-hand dismissal of the situation.

 

I'm "queezy" about that situation as well. And considering that a couple of U. S. citizens have been labeled as "illegal combatants" and been given the same hospitality, I'm even more so.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

OK.  I'll give you that.  They have to filter through these people.  But, you are assuming that all Gitmo detainees are being treated to this outlandish degree of (gasp!) discomfort.  We have extracted intelligence that may be the very reason you are still alive today.  But, then, that's neither here nor there.

 

The Supreme Court ruled 8-1 that American citizens detained at Gitmo need to receive due process and their writ of habeas corpus. Jose Padilla is still in the prison while the DOJ continues to tries to circumvent that (despite the Supremes saying that they can't)

 

As Bill Kristol discussed on Fox News -- Many of the JAGs in the military, many senior members of the National Security Council and the Defense Department are upset with the handling of Gitmo and treatment of detainees in general. He went on to say "Do we think that we need to hold people outside of US jurisdiction to run the war on terror? Why can't they be at the base in South Carolina or Texas?" He went on to state that the rules that apply in US jurisdiction would be perfectly adequate for holding "terrorists" also saying that we have terrorists in US jails and are doing alright holding them there. The whole reason they were at Gitmo, Kristol stated, was that the US wanted to keep these people out of US jurisdiction but the Supremes ruled that it is in US jurisdiction so there is no reason to keep detainees there.

 

One of the few times that I agree with Fox News.

[Rex Kickass]

Yeah silly me what was I thinking.  He wasn't comparing servicement to Nazi's at all.  Only George Bush is a Nazi.  I should know better than that by now.

 

:rolly I really hope you forgot the green.

Edited June 16, 2005 by winodj

[Texsox]

So those poor mistreated terrorists, that want to kill YOU were uncomfortable.  Damn! What's the world coming to?

 

Without trials of any kind, how are you so quick to label them terrorists? We thought OJ was a murderer, that Robert Blake hired a hit man, and Micheal Jackson was a child molester before trials.

OK maybe those were poor examples.

 

YAS, if a chained you in a fetal position for 36 hours, in those conditions, think you would admit to being a terrorist as some point?

 

If we are going to export American Democracy around the world, shouldn't we actually use it? If our system is so great, why are we not putting these people on trial with a jury of their peers?

[Balta1701]

I think I just found the single best comment on Durbin's remarks that I'm going to find.

 

Apparently, it is the case that if I read to George Bush the following description of prisoner treatment:

 

 

    On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water. Most times they urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18-24 hours or more. On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold....On another occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night. On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day before, with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor.

 

 

 

...that he would not conclude that this was how prisoners were treated by, say, the Cuban government or Pol Pot's government or under Stalin or in North Korea. No, he'd imagine that this must be a report from a detention center under the authority of the United States of America.

 

This of course is no surprise, as this has in fact been the policy of George W. Bush.

[kapkomet]

Ahh, f*** it. Let 'em all go.

 

Across the whole world, let them all go. After all, they're not harming us.

[Texsox]

Ahh, f*** it.  Let 'em all go.

 

Across the whole world, let them all go.  After all, they're not harming us.

 

Ahh, f*** it. Lock 'em all up.

 

Across the whole world, lock them all up. After all, we cannot tell which have harmed us.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Without trials of any kind, how are you so quick to label them terrorists? We thought OJ was a murderer, that Robert Blake hired a hit man, and Micheal Jackson was a child molester before trials.

OK maybe those were poor examples.

 

YAS, if a chained you in a fetal position for 36 hours, in those conditions, think you would admit to being a terrorist as some point?

 

If we are going to export American Democracy around the world, shouldn't we actually use it? If our system is so great, why are we not putting these people on trial with a jury of their peers?

 

 

Horrible examples with OJ and MJ. As I'm so fond of saying, if you have big money in Cali you can buy your own justice.

 

For the last time. WE ARE TRYING TO TRY THESE PEOPLE!!!! We have military commissions set up to deal with these people and it is YOUR SIDE which is stopping that process from going forward with your legal challenges.

 

It's extremely hypocritical of the left to whine about these people being there without trial when they themeslves are holding up the process.

 

:rolly

Edited June 16, 2005 by NUKE_CLEVELAND

[Texsox]

Horrible examples with OJ and MJ.  As I'm so fond of saying, if you have big money in Cali you can buy your own justice.

 

For the last time.  WE ARE TRYING TO TRY THESE PEOPLE!!!!  We have military commissions set up to deal with these people and it is YOUR SIDE which is stopping that process from going forward with your legal challenges. 

 

It's extremely hypocritical of the left to whine about these people being there without trial when they themeslves are holding up the process.

 

:rolly

 

Are the conservatives who are requesting quicker trials also being hypocrites?

 

If we truely want to spread democracy around the world, then we need to allow our system to pass or fail, just like at home.