RockRaines Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 QUOTE(Steff @ Jun 16, 2005 -> 03:53 PM) Exactly what I said. The way the story is told.. Freddy coming to the Sox was a long time in the works and they wanted Olivo so the Sox needed a catcher to replace him. John and Jim remember all this better than I.. they were with the guys more than Jen and I were that night. We were too busy laughing at Wille pimpin in the lobby. From what I understand of the situation, Freddy's name came up extremely early in Ozzie's tenure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodAsGould Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 weird so we could of had pudge and urbina at a discount and it didnt happen , anyways after this hot start and ozzie's recent contract extension maybe KW will let Ozzie have what he wants a little bit more in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Jun 16, 2005 -> 03:59 PM) weird so we could of had pudge and urbina at a discount and it didnt happen , anyways after this hot start and ozzie's recent contract extension maybe KW will let Ozzie have what he wants a little bit more in the future. Both of those deals would have happened prior to the '04 season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 QUOTE(Steff @ Jun 16, 2005 -> 03:53 PM) Exactly what I said. The way the story is told.. Freddy coming to the Sox was a long time in the works and they wanted Olivo so the Sox needed a catcher to replace him. John and Jim remember all this better than I.. they were with the guys more than Jen and I were that night. We were too busy laughing at Wille pimpin in the lobby. I think the thing that is confusing me in all of this, or atleast in the FG/Davis situation, is that I thought I'd remembered reading somewhere where the Sox could have had FG for like just Valentin, and the Sox turned it down, due to Valentin's leadership, clutchness, and the fact that they would not have had a SS with Uribe being completely unproven. The M's would have done it because they needed a SS badly, having traded Guillen to Detroit, and FG had a burden of a contract at $7 mill while coming off 2 pretty poor years in a row. So is there no validity to that Jose s*** at all, or am I remembering reading that right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 I don't know about Jose.. but I know they wanted Olivo. Olivo knew this also and knew his days were numbered. I'm sure someone will recall the rumors about him not getting along with the pitching staff so well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 QUOTE(Hideaway Lights @ Jun 16, 2005 -> 10:16 AM) What defensive measuring stick do you use, then? I'm not wedded to fielding percentage. Crede is certainly above average defensively, as you reiterated. I just threw in the F% as an afterthought. 2 errors in his last 50 someodd games is really impressive. Crede isn't as bad as many of us say. I think the big reason I get frustrated with him is because he has the potential to do great things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jun 16, 2005 -> 03:02 PM) I think the thing that is confusing me in all of this, or atleast in the FG/Davis situation, is that I thought I'd remembered reading somewhere where the Sox could have had FG for like just Valentin, and the Sox turned it down, due to Valentin's leadership, clutchness, and the fact that they would not have had a SS with Uribe being completely unproven. The M's would have done it because they needed a SS badly, having traded Guillen to Detroit, and FG had a burden of a contract at $7 mill while coming off 2 pretty poor years in a row. So is there no validity to that Jose s*** at all, or am I remembering reading that right? Wite, the rumor was that the Jose for Freddy deal was done if the Nomar for Maggs deal went through. After that fell through then Kenny probably didn't want to trade Jose and give the job to an unproven Uribe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jun 16, 2005 -> 04:07 PM) Wite, the rumor was that the Jose for Freddy deal was done if the Nomar for Maggs deal went through. After that fell through then Kenny probably didn't want to trade Jose and give the job to an unproven Uribe. I do recall it being some of the fallout of the Manny for ARod, Maggs for Nomar/Williamson talk. I will say that a little bit of this is actually starting to make some sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 QUOTE(Mickster @ Jun 16, 2005 -> 11:41 AM) Ozzie and KW and others on the team simply discuss where they can improve the team. KW makes virtually all of the personnel decisions. Case in point: Pudge was in Ozzie's office prior to signing with the Tigers - just sitting there BS'ing. KW walkes in and Pudge basically says "Let's make a deal, right here - right now" No Boras, no nothing..... From my understanding, the numbers that Pudge was throwing at KW were FAR LESS than what he ultimately signed with Detroit. Similarly, in ST '04, before Urbina signed with the Tigers, Uggie basically begged Ozzie to sign him to a contract - even a 1 year deal for $1M. It obviously didn't happen. Urbina was actually in Tucson living in Ozzie's condo during ST when he wasn't even under a contract with any MLB team. Fact is, Ozzie has little to do with the players that are actually signed by the Sox. He may have some input...some influence, but all decisions fall on KW's shoulders. Good stuff mickster...thanks for sharing that with us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jun 16, 2005 -> 04:12 PM) Good stuff mickster...thanks for sharing that with us Ummm.. you heard it all at Soxfest from Jr, Mr Drink Spiller.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jun 16, 2005 -> 09:11 PM) I do recall it being some of the fallout of the Manny for ARod, Maggs for Nomar/Williamson talk. I will say that a little bit of this is actually starting to make some sense. Wow, that would have been extremely -- odd, to say the least -- had that deal went through. Kind of weird, thinking back to how close (at least, how it was reported) that deal was to going down... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Jun 16, 2005 -> 04:16 PM) Wow, that would have been extremely -- odd, to say the least -- had that deal went through. Kind of weird, thinking back to how close (at least, how it was reported) that deal was to going down... Team would have looked a lot different, I can guarantee you that. Like all of this is a blessing in disguise. Those moves happen, and the team you see on the field right now has 0% chance of forming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 QUOTE(Steff @ Jun 16, 2005 -> 01:14 PM) Ummm.. you heard it all at Soxfest from Jr, Mr Drink Spiller.. What are these accusations... Now that you mention it, I do remember Jr. mentioning that. I missed the 1st half of that convo though so didn't know all the details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitetrain8601 Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Wow, that's really, just different. So if I have all this right, assuming the Sox would've opened up their pocketbooks enough this could've been our team at some point last year?: C-Ivan Rodriguez 1B-Paul Konerko 2B-Juan Uribe 3B-Joe Crede SS-Nomar Garciaparra RF-Willie Harris?? CF-Aaron Rowand LF-Carlos Lee DH-Frank Thomas That's better than St. Louis lineup from last year IMO. 5-man rotation: Buehrle Garcia Loaiza(I don't know of we still would've traded for Contreras) Garland 5th starter That would be an interesting team. Anyway, before I forget. I always seem to ask, but nobody answers so I'll ask again. I hear that Willie isn't liked in the clubhouse very much for something he did last year. Anyone know what he did?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Haha, Willie Harris in right field now that would be something to see. Anyways while good on paper that offense would have done the same crap our offense in years past did imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitetrain8601 Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jun 16, 2005 -> 03:57 PM) Haha, Willie Harris in right field now that would be something to see. Anyways while good on paper that offense would have done the same crap our offense in years past did imo. I don't know. I-Rod and Nomar are pretty good balanced hitters as in they hit both for average and power. Same with Frank(at least OBP wise) and Rowand. PK would've had his PK year. I truly don't know, but I would've watched, that's for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Jun 16, 2005 -> 03:58 PM) I don't know. I-Rod and Nomar are pretty good balanced hitters as in they hit both for average and power. Same with Frank(at least OBP wise) and Rowand. PK would've had his PK year. I truly don't know, but I would've watched, that's for sure. Nine, this is true, however remember Frank and Nomar were both injured for a big chunk of the season, so now you're putting willie at 2b, juan at short, and timo back in rf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Ozzie and KW and others on the team simply discuss where they can improve the team. KW makes virtually all of the personnel decisions. Case in point: Pudge was in Ozzie's office prior to signing with the Tigers - just sitting there BS'ing. KW walkes in and Pudge basically says "Let's make a deal, right here - right now" No Boras, no nothing..... From my understanding, the numbers that Pudge was throwing at KW were FAR LESS than what he ultimately signed with Detroit. Similarly, in ST '04, before Urbina signed with the Tigers, Uggie basically begged Ozzie to sign him to a contract - even a 1 year deal for $1M. It obviously didn't happen. Urbina was actually in Tucson living in Ozzie's condo during ST when he wasn't even under a contract with any MLB team. Fact is, Ozzie has little to do with the players that are actually signed by the Sox. He may have some input...some influence, but all decisions fall on KW's shoulders. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Interesting stuff. I know I should just leave this alone, but ... The Urbina thing I totally understand. Ugie was coming off a fairly serious arm issue after 2003 which is why he was unsigned going into '04. He and Guillen are extremely close so it makes sense Urbina would've wanted to come here. I too am aware he was living at Ozzie's place in Tucson spring 2004. I can also completely understand why Williams didn't want to sign him coming off those arm problems. In retrospect it would have been a decent signing I suppose. The Ivan Rodriguez thing ... far fetched IMO. Personally I think those guys were kidding around, that stuff happens a lot. I find it very hard to fathom that the Players Association and Scott Boras would allow it to happen. Yes I know the player is ultimately in charge of his own destiny but Rodriguez got some huge guaranteed money and if he wanted to play in Chicago that bad he could've gotten a decent deal from the Cubs ... albeit less than the Tigers paid. It turned out it was all about money anyways, seeing as he got that huge deal from the Tigers. For me, this doesn't add up at all. Garcia/Olivo/Davis ... no question Ozzie, KW, etc. had their eyes on Garcia. But a big reason he became available was due to Seattle's awful start to '04. Garcia said all along how comfortable he was in Seattle and how much he liked it there. I don't personally believe the White Sox were ready to throw the towel in on Miguel Olivo in the winter/spring of 2004. If Olivo knew his days were numbered he did a hell of an acting job when the trade was announced (total shock) and was a walking zombie his first two weeks in Seattle. Personally I believe the trade with Seattle starting growing legs in mid to late May, about 5-6 weeks before it happened. That's roughly when Seattle was tanking so badly and the Yankees started sniffing around Garcia in addition to the White Sox. I totally agree the ultimate personnel decisions are Ken Williams' call but I also think he and Guillen are pretty much on the same page in terms of what kind of team they want. It isn't a situation IMO where Guillen has to twist KW's arm ... they talk a lot and seem to be going in the same direction. KW himself always is quoted as saying that he asks Ozzie and the coaches "what they need", i.e. player additions. So the good news here is, there's an open dialogue, or at the very least there appears to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Jun 16, 2005 -> 01:52 PM) Wow, that's really, just different. So if I have all this right, assuming the Sox would've opened up their pocketbooks enough this could've been our team at some point last year?: C-Ivan Rodriguez 1B-Paul Konerko 2B-Juan Uribe 3B-Joe Crede SS-Nomar Garciaparra RF-Willie Harris?? CF-Aaron Rowand LF-Carlos Lee DH-Frank Thomas That's better than St. Louis lineup from last year IMO. 5-man rotation: Buehrle Garcia Loaiza(I don't know of we still would've traded for Contreras) Garland 5th starter That would be an interesting team. Anyway, before I forget. I always seem to ask, but nobody answers so I'll ask again. I hear that Willie isn't liked in the clubhouse very much for something he did last year. Anyone know what he did?? IIRC they were also quite interested in Juan Gonzalez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jun 16, 2005 -> 01:57 PM) Haha, Willie Harris in right field now that would be something to see. Anyways while good on paper that offense would have done the same crap our offense in years past did imo. Well frankly I'd take last years offense over this years offense. The reason the team is winning this year is pitching. Put this years pitching staff (and the way they are throwing the ball) with last years offense and I think you'd have similar results. Of course this club is arguably a little better defensively (mainly AJ in CF and the fact that Jose has been replaced by Juan). However Maggs was a good RF and Lee is just as good as Pods defensively (I don't care what anyone else tells me either). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jun 16, 2005 -> 05:22 PM) Well frankly I'd take last years offense over this years offense. The reason the team is winning this year is pitching. Put this years pitching staff (and the way they are throwing the ball) with last years offense and I think you'd have similar results. Of course this club is arguably a little better defensively (mainly AJ in CF and the fact that Jose has been replaced by Juan). However Maggs was a good RF and Lee is just as good as Pods defensively (I don't care what anyone else tells me either). I personally wouldn't and I know I'm going to get torn to shreads for that but I guess I just like the way this offense is built and I know their stats aren't good but they've come up with every big hit possible. The thing that says it for me is that the Twins have a better team era and there are a ton of people who absolutely love their offense yet the sox are 5 games up on them. Anyways, it's just a difference of opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitetrain8601 Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jun 16, 2005 -> 05:41 PM) I personally wouldn't and I know I'm going to get torn to shreads for that but I guess I just like the way this offense is built and I know their stats aren't good but they've come up with every big hit possible. The thing that says it for me is that the Twins have a better team era and there are a ton of people who absolutely love their offense yet the sox are 5 games up on them. Anyways, it's just a difference of opinion I could see how you would like this year's offense over last year. Perfect scenario would be a combo of the two. Well actually, I would probably keep Pods, Iguchi, AJ and maybe Dye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxfest Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 First place is great, but lets not think this team cannot always improve, there are some areas that need dealt with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sayitaintso Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 (edited) QUOTE(Soxfest @ Jun 16, 2005 -> 10:54 PM) First place is great, but lets not think this team cannot always improve, there are some areas that need dealt with. Exaclty, you can always get better than just stay average. Edited June 17, 2005 by sayitaintso Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jun 16, 2005 -> 06:22 PM) mainly AJ in CF Now that would be fun as hell to see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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