Crede on Block?

[JUGGERNAUT]

Somehow, I think that if Joe Crede was really pumped about staying on this team with a long-term deal...he'd have realized how much the Sox community dislikes Boras and started looking at switching agents by now.

 

I know Boras will probably get him another million or two, but if he wanted to stay, that would be a worthy gesture.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I remember reading an article where Crede was interviewed & the topic did come up & he didn't seem adamant against it. The reporter asked him something along the lines of "I'm sure you're aware of the history between the White Sox & your agent Scott Boras. Have you given any thought to switching agents?" Crede's response did not say he was happy with Scott or that he would rule it out. His answer was more along the lines of his crossing that path when he comes to it.

 

I'm not looking into a crystal ball but instead just reading the quotes in the paper.

Both KW & Oz have given Joe a vote of confidence & Oz has lowered his expectations down to what Crede has produced the past 2 yrs. You don't do that if your trying to trade the kid. You want to keep selling his potential to boost his value. Ozzie just dropped an egg on that potential & said I'm happy with how he plays for me. Team's don't publicly announce they are lowering their expecations for a kid they intend to trade. That's stupid.

[southsideirish71]

You are absolutely right, and if Crede happens to get hurt, Randa is perfect.

 

 

Why not get Randa now. A guy who makes contact, can bunt, can sacrifice, can move the runner over instead of Mr. we expect .240 out of him and he has a great glove. I dont understand this. We tried numerous times to upgrade in the OF and at 2nd base over the years with guys who had great gloves, but had problems at the time with putting the ball in play. We are trying to win a world series here. Mr. Crede can retake the position next year. Watching this guy either hit the ball out of the park or GIDP/K/Pop out is sick. We need consistancy for the position.

[Guest JimH]

Why not get Randa now.  A guy who makes contact, can bunt,  can sacrifice, can move the runner over instead of Mr. we expect .240 out of him and he has a great glove.  I dont understand this.  We tried numerous times to upgrade in the OF and at 2nd base over the years with guys who had great gloves, but had problems at the time with putting the ball in play.  We are trying to win a world series here.  Mr. Crede can retake the position next year. Watching this guy either hit the ball out of the park or GIDP/K/Pop out is sick.  We need consistancy for the position.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not sure if you have read the countless times it's been posted as to why it does not make sense.

 

I will try again but I suspect this topic will come up over and over.

 

Randa is a better hitter than Crede, there is no doubt about that.

 

1. Crede is a starting player on a 1st place team, the team has great chemistry.

 

2. The manager and GM are very hesitant to disrupt the chemistry. I don't blame them.

 

3. They have built the team on pitching and per the announcers, our pitchers love Crede, they have great confidence in him. That leads to good chemistry.

 

4. Randa has not been especially durable the last 2-3 years. Crede is durable.

 

5. Defensively I'd say they are about equal, the basic upgrade you get from Randa is batting average of 45 points. Not worth disrupting things for that alone, it doesn't matter if Randa is great in the clubhouse or not. A trade is a disruption.

 

6. The GM and manager have said if they are going to do anything (trade) it will be an addition vs. swapping out a starting player. Williams just a few days ago said this yet again ... he wants to be very careful about altering things.

 

7. There are greater needs than a 45 point upgrade in batting average at 3B. Those being strengthening the bullpen and figuring out whether another starter is needed with McCarthy showing his inexperience and El Duque showing his age.

 

8. Randa is as good as he'll get. Crede could get better.

 

Try to look at it realistically vs. just numbers, and consider what the GM and manager have been saying all year long. If Crede gets hurt they will make a full court press for Randa. I realize you are insistent on wanting this to happen because you post it every couple of days but IMO the chances of them trading Crede and getting Randa (in whatever combination) is remote.

 

I don't know how else to explain it. This board likes when the team wins but doesn't seem to value chemistry ... when chemistry has been consistently cited as a big reason why they're winning, and why they haven't won from '01-'04. They are not going to start trading players for relatively small statistical upgrades, there are too many other factors. You can keep wishing and hoping and posting about it, but I think you will be disappointed because I doubt it will happen.

 

I am done presenting this point because this board will start with the same harping every time Crede makes an out, especially if he makes an out to the left side.

[Kyyle23]

Not sure if you have read the countless times it's been posted as to why it does not make sense.

 

I will try again but I suspect this topic will come up over and over.

 

Randa is a better hitter than Crede, there is no doubt about that.

 

1.  Crede is a starting player on a 1st place team, the team has great chemistry.

 

2.  The manager and GM are very hesitant to disrupt the chemistry.  I don't blame them.

 

3.  They have built the team on pitching and per the announcers, our pitchers love Crede, they have great confidence in him.  That leads to good chemistry.

 

4.  Randa has not been especially durable the last 2-3 years.  Crede is durable.

 

5.  Defensively I'd say they are about equal, the basic upgrade you get from Randa is batting average of 45 points.  Not worth disrupting things for that alone, it doesn't matter if Randa is great in the clubhouse or not.  A trade is a disruption.

 

6.  The GM and manager have said if they are going to do anything (trade) it will be an addition vs. swapping out a starting player.  Williams just a few days ago said this yet again ... he wants to be very careful about altering things.

 

7.  There are greater needs than a 45 point upgrade in batting average at 3B.  Those being strengthening the bullpen and figuring out whether another starter is needed with McCarthy showing his inexperience and El Duque showing his age.

 

8.  Randa is as good as he'll get.  Crede could get better.

 

Try to look at it realistically vs. just numbers, and consider what the GM and manager have been saying all year long.  If Crede gets hurt they will make a full court press for Randa.  I realize you are insistent on wanting this to happen because you post it every couple of days but IMO the chances of them trading Crede and getting Randa (in whatever combination) is remote.

 

I don't know how else to explain it.  This board likes when the team wins but doesn't seem to value chemistry ... when chemistry has been consistently cited as a big reason why they're winning, and why they haven't won from '01-'04.  They are not going to start trading players for relatively small statistical upgrades, there are too many other factors.  You can keep wishing and hoping and posting about it, but I think you will be disappointed because I doubt it will happen.

 

I am done presenting this point because this board will start with the same harping every time Crede makes an out, especially if he makes an out to the left side.

 

Please Jim, retype that again. I didnt get it the first billion times it was written

[southsider2k5]

Please Jim, retype that again.  I didnt get it the first billion times it was written

 

If only it wasn't necesary for that to be posted all of the time

[southsider17]

If only it wasn't necesary for that to be posted all of the time

 

Unlike the newbie Kyyle23 I don't read thru every thread (not sure why I read thru this one either) but that was a good, well-thought-out post, JimH (and it should have been considering all the practice you've gotten).

 

Let's fix the bullpen before we worry about our slick fielding 3Bman.

Edited June 21, 2005 by southsider17

[upnorthsox]

Jim you left out how in the heck Randa is going to hit 45 points better without facing the Sox 19 times. Please add it to your list for the next time.

[Guest JimH]

Jim you left out how in the heck Randa is going to hit 45 points better without facing the Sox 19 times. Please add it to your list for the next time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Excellent point, how in the heck did I miss thinking of that? He killed the Sox.

[Kyyle23]

Unlike the newbie Kyyle23  I don't read thru every thread (not sure why I read thru this one either) but that was a good, well-thought-out post, JimH (and it should have been considering all the practice you've gotten).

 

Let's fix the bullpen before we worry about our slick fielding 3Bman.

 

Hey, i resemble that remark

[Benson&Rexage]

I'd rather have Joe Rogan than Joe Randa.

 

Keep Crede or package him in a deal for Chavez or Miller but not straight up for an old guy who has been a career utility player.

 

Crede should get consideration for a gold glove this year

 

You crazy Joe Rogan

 

I'ma tell you something you may not know about me Joe Rogan

 

I smoke rocks- Tyrone Biggums

[Kalapse]

I'd rather have Joe Rogan than Joe Randa.

 

Keep Crede or package him in a deal for Chavez or Miller but not straight up for an old guy who has been a career utility player.

 

Crede should get consideration for a gold glove this year

 

You crazy Joe Rogan

 

I'ma tell you something you may not know about me Joe Rogan

 

I smoke rocks- Tyrone Biggums

Mueller

 

WTF, that couldn't be further from the truth.

[TheHammer]

Not sure if you have read the countless times it's been posted as to why it does not make sense.

 

I will try again but I suspect this topic will come up over and over.

 

There will be reasons for and against any trade, the key is to weigh them and see if ultimately you can make yourself better.

 

 

1.  Crede is a starting player on a 1st place team, the team has great chemistry.

 

2.  The manager and GM are very hesitant to disrupt the chemistry.  I don't blame them.

 

3.  They have built the team on pitching and per the announcers, our pitchers love Crede, they have great confidence in him.  That leads to good chemistry.

 

I don't tsee as a trade that brings in Randa for Crede would disrupt chemistry at all. Crede is one player of 25. He is not a leader on this team, he is just a young contributor. He fits in well with this group but I can't see how our chemistry will really be damaged by moving him. I look at this as a non-factor.

 

4.  Randa has not been especially durable the last 2-3 years.  Crede is durable.

 

This is a valid concern. I sure as hell wouldnt want to be stuck having to start Ozuna or Uribe at third for long periods of time.

 

5.  Defensively I'd say they are about equal, the basic upgrade you get from Randa is batting average of 45 points.  Not worth disrupting things for that alone, it doesn't matter if Randa is great in the clubhouse or not.  A trade is a disruption.

 

Defensively Randa is Crede with much beter range especially to his left. It is an upgrade in my opinion. Also, besides hitting 45 points higher which is a big deal Randa probably is as good as any third baseman in the game in bunting, moving runners along and executing sacrafices. The advantage of Randa is performance of the field. There is no doubt about that to me. He is a better baseball player than Crede. I also would guess Randa would be a 20-25 HR guy in this ballpark as well and being a fairly good RBI producer, it was only a couple years ago that he drove in 100 and he is good for 80 a season when healthy.

 

Also it absolutely matters if Randa is great in the clubhouse, a trade may be a disruption but its not going to stop this team. Unless Randa is an enormous lockerroom cancer chemistry will be fine.

 

 

6.  The GM and manager have said if they are going to do anything (trade) it will be an addition vs. swapping out a starting player.  Williams just a few days ago said this yet again ... he wants to be very careful about altering things.

 

I don't know if what a GM tells the public is ever really the truth. Anything is possible in my estimation.

 

7.  There are greater needs than a 45 point upgrade in batting average at 3B.  Those being strengthening the bullpen and figuring out whether another starter is needed with McCarthy showing his inexperience and El Duque showing his age.

 

Yeah there are bigger needs but KW has no problems making multiple deals if he thinks it will help. Randa wouldn't cost much.

 

8.  Randa is as good as he'll get.  Crede could get better.

 

 

This I think would be my biggest concern. Randa is 35 and Crede is 25. If we think Crede is going to be our 3B for a long time we should try to resign him and make that commitment. If we think he will probably leave when his contract expires and go in another direction I think we should make a trade for Randa if one is possible. We would get a very good player who fits our style of play perfectly who can play for a couple seasons until Fields is ready or e can sign someone else.

 

I think Crede could be a good player and his youth makes me want to keep him. However, I also realize this season Randa would be a big upgrade towards a World Series run.

[Dam8610]

ESPN's Cold Pizza just had Ken Rosenthal and Buster Olney on and they talked about the players that could be on the trading block.  They mentioned that the Giants and Rockies would be willing to move anyone and that Jason Schmidt, Barry Zito, and Preston Wilson will be the major players on the move.

 

I wonder how much he'd cost in a trade? He's been lights out in years past, but he isn't doing so well this year. I wonder who's shown interest for them to even say that he's available?

[Kalapse]

I wonder how much he'd cost in a trade? He's been lights out in years past, but he isn't doing so well this year. I wonder who's shown interest for them to even say that he's available?

Just say no to Jason Schmidt. He's been so bad this year that I wouldn't want him anywhere near this team.

[sayitaintso]

I wonder how much he'd cost in a trade? He's been lights out in years past, but he isn't doing so well this year. I wonder who's shown interest for them to even say that he's available?

He's the product of being overworked.

[Guest JimH]

As I said I am done making a point for this, just want to amplify a few things.

 

Randa-Crede range factor: subjective. I'm sure Juggs has all the range factor stats, but Randa has been fighting a bad back and a worse foot.

 

Age: not to be picky but Crede is 27 and yes Randa is 35 as you said.

 

Chemistry: we just don't know. We can assume either way, it may be a disruption and it may not be. The big difference is, this is the first year the manager and GM have openly talked about how good the chemistry is. I don't sense this is a fragile team, they are professionals, but whenever you trade a starting position player, it is disruptive. It is far from a non-factor. Crede is not a vocal clubhouse leader, but he leads with his good defense. The pitchers know what to expect. Randa may be as good, he may not be. Nagging injuries take their toll, especially on a 35 year old.

 

This season: to be honest that's really all I'm looking at. The contract will take care of itself, then again maybe it won't. Crede can't bunt worth a s*** but he does know how to shoot the ball to RF, move the runner, get a sac fly, etc. People on this board are adamant he can't, I cannot change that line of thinking.

 

Other: Make no mistake, I like Randa and always have. But one thing that made me go "hmmm" is this guy ends up in Cincy. No contender wanted him. Would he not have been a perfect fit for Minnesota even though they had Cudyher.

 

Anyways, this is it for me. The topic has been beaten to death.

[JUGGERNAUT]

I disagree that Randa is as good a player defensively as Crede. You'll have to prove it.

 

As for Randa's bat never forget to look at it where in the lineup he is hitting.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/spli...98&type=batting

He's got next to nothing experience hitting #7-9. #6 755OPS, #5 783OPS, #3 683OPS, #2 775OPS

None of those numbers are good enough to replace the guys we have hitting in those spots. So hitting Randa in 7-9 is rolling the dice & hoping for the best.

 

If you were to slot Crede in between say Thomas & Konerko, Konerko & Dye, Dye & Rowand do you think he'd produce better numbers? I do.

Right now he's hitting behind AJ/Widger & Uribe. AJ is 5/32, Crede 12/36, Uribe is 5/29. Do you think Crede's struggles might have something to do

with the fact that he is not getting very good pitches with Uribe hitting behind him?

 

I think we're better off waiting & seeing what happens with the tail of our order while we enjoy an 8 gm lead over the Twins.

[JUGGERNAUT]

If Zito is really available I'd be interested. It's always better against contending teams to throw two dominant lefties against them.

 

His best #'s are .690 OOP, 234BAA His worst numbers are 4.66ERA, 40W.

In 2005 he's been #1 in the rotation. When he won his Cy Young in 2002 he was in the middle of the rotation. That's where I would put him on the White Sox. For 3 straight years his best stuff has surfaced in the 2nd 1/2.

 

Buehrle L - finesse

Garcia R - power

Zito L - finesse

Contreras R - power

Garland R - finesse

 

It's an ideal L-R mix with finesse & power. Now I know that disrupts the whole El Duque in the post plan but Zito has some post season success as well.

[ISF]

No to Zito. Would rather go after Schmidt, who will probably cost us less at this point in terms of prospects.

[TheHammer]

Randa-Crede range factor:  subjective.  I'm sure Juggs has all the range factor stats, but Randa has been fighting a bad back and a worse foot.

 

I guess techinically it is subjective, but lets be realistic, Crede has limited range at third and Randa has good range. The bad back and worse foot seem to be overstated from you as he is having a career year and has started 60 games.

 

Crede is not a vocal clubhouse leader, but he leads with his good defense.  The pitchers know what to expect.  Randa may be as good, he may not be.  Nagging injuries take their toll, especially on a 35 year old.

 

There really is no "he may not be." I think thats where we look at this differently. Randa IS a better hitter, he IS a better executer, and he IS a better defender. Right now all these things are true and they have played out to be true over throughout the years and this season. Thia isn't like taking a guy from Japan or taking a guy who looks great in the minors where its unknown whether they can play at this level. We do know that Randa is better, that is not a debateable point in my mind becuase I don't see these players as relatively close at this point in their respective careers.

 

 

Other:  Make no mistake, I like Randa and always have.  But one thing that made me go "hmmm" is this guy ends up in Cincy.  No contender wanted him.  Would he not have been a perfect fit for Minnesota even though they had Cudyher.

 

You can't be serious.

[Balta1701]

Zito is not a dominant lefty, nor has he been one in the last 2 years. Think about him as an Esteban Loaiza who throws left handed and who was good for slightly longer. His fastball has dropped considerably. His control is not as good as it was.

 

Schmidt at least has an excuse - he's been hurt, he could recover. Zito...I don't see him ever being a Cy Young candidate again.

[ISF]

Randa is not better defensively than Crede. He's good, the difference is negligible IMO, but better?

 

No way.

 

Likewise, any suggestion that Joe Crede is better than Randa offensively is a joke. We have large sample sizes on both that are pretty indicative of what production you can expect from each. Randa wins going away.

[Balta1701]

Likewise, any suggestion that Joe Crede is better than Randa offensively is a joke. We have large sample sizes on both that are pretty indicative of what production you can expect from each. Randa wins going away.

The best thing I've read about this was 1 simple fact; each player can expect roughly 300 more at bats this season. If a player hits .290, he will have roughly 12 more hits than a guy who hits .250. That is all.

 

12 hits are not worth whatever price we'd have to pay in prospects. They just aren't.

[AirScott]

This season:  to be honest that's really all I'm looking at.  The contract will take care of itself, then again maybe it won't.  Crede can't bunt worth a s*** but he does know how to shoot the ball to RF, move the runner, get a sac fly, etc.  People on this board are adamant he can't, I cannot change that line of thinking.

Crede can do all that, he's just a little poor on the execution. from what I've heard and read, scouts love Crede because he has all the tools to be a star, but can't put them to work. he's just so streaky, he might just be another Shawn Green type player.

[Guest JimH]

I guess techinically it is subjective, but lets be realistic, Crede has limited range at third and Randa has good range.  The bad back and worse foot seem to be overstated from you as he is having a career year and has started 60 games.

There really is no "he may not be."  I think thats where we look at this differently.  Randa IS a better hitter, he IS a better executer, and he IS a better defender.  Right now all these things are true and they have played out to be true over throughout the years and this season.  Thia isn't like taking a guy from Japan or taking a guy who looks great in the minors where its unknown whether they can play at this level.  We do know that Randa is better, that is not a debateable point in my mind becuase I don't see these players as relatively close at this point in their respective careers.

You can't be serious.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

OK, you've opened the door here.

 

First of all, you sound very familiar to another poster who was on this site recently. I asked once before, let me ask again ... are you back here under another user name?

 

2nd ... every statement you make is subjective ... "better" ... defender, executer, hitter. We are looking at past performance. Who's to say Randa will be markedly better? I highly doubt the White Sox will trade a starting position player for a marginal improvement. Not that sports radio knows what they're talking about, but I found it interesting about 1/2 hour ago that George Offman on The Score said the Sox will stick with Crede unless they can make a huge upgrade. He said they made a very attractive offer to Oakland for Chavez, and were turned down. Oakland is not willing to trade Chavez. He specifically mentioned Randa after being prompted by a caller ... he said they are not willing to change things (change the chemistry) for what may or may not be a marginal upgrade.

 

Next ... what's with the "you can't be serious" comment on Cudyher? The Twins did look at Randa, if you believe the St. Paul Pioneer Press. They decided against it. I don't pull these comments out of the air, I've been following this team since the 1960's, as well as the rest of the league, and I'm not one to throw around trade fantasy scenarios.

 

Range ... where are you coming up with this? Range factor statistics? If you want to rely on that, certainly that's your right. I don't hold much stock in range factor stats for a 3B because where they're positioned is often predicated on the SS and how much range they have. From watching Joe Crede and Joe Randa quite a bit, I don't see much difference. Again, it's subjective.

 

You used the word "realistic". Yes, let's be realistic. They aren't going to trade Crede for Randa, or trade Crede for the express purpose of bringing in Randa. This is of course IMO, based on the team being in 1st and also based on what KW and Guillen have been saying about the makeup of the team, the chemistry, etc. That's realistic. What's less than realistic is this board saying things like Randa is better and it's not debateable. Huh?? Statistically a better hitter? Yes. A better fit for this team at this time? Certainly debateable.

 

Again, the biggest difference between the two is durability, Crede being a known quantity in the clubhouse, age factor, and 45 points in batting average. I would give the nod to Randa in terms of situational hitting, but I don't think KW looks at Randa as a significant upgrade. Maybe I am wrong, but all signs appear to point to KW thinking that, and Guillen as well.