Dumba$$e$

[Y2HH]

 

I was going to reply to a DUMBASS post on WhiteSox.com, but then I remembered why I'm here in the first place. I honestly think stupid people like to be around stupid people, and stupid people seem to post on WhiteSox.com (sorry if any of you post there).

 

Someone stated that they'd give Viz and Pods back for Lee, because with Lee our offense would be killer. How dumb of a statement is this?!@#$!#@ Seriousy, open your mind. This game was and IS about more than offense.

 

We are winning -- WITHOUT Lee.

 

Not to mention we HAD Lee and for three consecutive years we BOMBED. I recall frequent miscues by Lee, spurts of total lazyness, dumb outfield plays and then ultra-hot-streaks where he'd hit multiple home runs and drive in 6 RBI's in a game...when we were already winning that game 10-0. I never recall Lee helping us a lick when we were down 1-0, though. How many times has Pods changed the face of a game just by getting on when we were down 1-0?!

 

Vizciano is a disappointment, yes...but he's better than he's pitching and I'm sure it's merely because we aren't using him the right way. I see a tendendy to overuse his breaking pitches rather than use that moving fastball...we need to stop this.

 

As for Podsednik, he brings something to the game that you cannot see on the surface and I think it FAR outweighs Lee's power numbers. Pods can score from first on a long single (if necessary), Lee cannot. Pods puts pressure (constant pressure) on opposing pitchers and defenses, Lee cannot. Lee falls asleep and gets picked off at the most mis-opportune times, Pods does not. Lee has better power numbers than Pods, no doubt about it...and he can keep them. Lee didn't terrify an entire team when he got on base...Podsednik does, and that -- at least to me -- is bigger than any home run.

 

I like Lee...but I like having Pods more...way more. So to those of you on WhiteSox.com who want to trade Pods back for Lee...I wanna trade you for a Milwaukee fan, because they're probably not as DUMB as you.

 

[sayitaintso]

 

I was going to reply to a DUMBASS post on WhiteSox.com, but then I remembered why I'm here in the first place.  I honestly think stupid people like to be around stupid people, and stupid people seem to post on WhiteSox.com (sorry if any of you post there).

 

Someone stated that they'd give Viz and Pods back for Lee, because with Lee our offense would be killer.  How dumb of a statement is this?!@#$!#@  Seriousy, open your mind.  This game was and IS about more than offense.

 

We are winning -- WITHOUT Lee.

 

Not to mention we HAD Lee and for three consecutive years we BOMBED.  I recall frequent miscues by Lee, spurts of total lazyness, dumb outfield plays and then ultra-hot-streaks where he'd hit multiple home runs and drive in 6 RBI's in a game...when we were already winning that game 10-0.  I never recall Lee helping us a lick when we were down 1-0, though.  How many times has Pods changed the face of a game just by getting on when we were down 1-0?!

 

Vizciano is a disappointment, yes...but he's better than he's pitching and I'm sure it's merely because we aren't using him the right way.  I see a tendendy to overuse his breaking pitches rather than use that moving fastball...we need to stop this.

 

As for Podsednik, he brings something to the game that you cannot see on the surface and I think it FAR outweighs Lee's power numbers.  Pods can score from first on a long single (if necessary), Lee cannot.  Pods puts pressure (constant pressure) on opposing pitchers and defenses, Lee cannot.  Lee falls asleep and gets picked off at the most mis-opportune times, Pods does not.  Lee has better power numbers than Pods, no doubt about it...and he can keep them.  Lee didn't terrify an entire team when he got on base...Podsednik does, and that -- at least to me -- is bigger than any home run.

 

I like Lee...but I like having Pods more...way more.  So to those of you on WhiteSox.com who want to trade Pods back for Lee...I wanna trade you for a Milwaukee fan, because they're probably not as DUMB as you.

 

Was the post by Insiderinfo ? That guys posts are so unbelieveably bad that they are funny.

[Y2HH]

It was posted by someone named Winsox05, apparantly someone who still thinks offense wins championships...even though in the past three years we have none.

 

And I've heard about that InsiderInfo fool.

[Dick Allen]

Carlos is having a huge season and is a far superior offensive baseball player than Pods. Defensively, Pods is better, but he's not exactly a Gold Glove left fielder either. I personally think the most positive thing about that trade was the money it freed up to acquire other players. If the money was no object, call me crazy call me dumb, but I would take CLee over Pods and Vizcaino as well.

[KevHead0881]

Carlos is having a huge season and is a far superior offensive baseball player than Pods. Defensively, Pods is better, but he's not exactly a Gold Glove left fielder either. I personally think the most positive thing about that trade was the money it freed up to acquire other players. If the money was no object, call me crazy call me dumb, but I would take CLee over Pods and Vizcaino as well.

 

I won't call you dumb, but you might be crazy. While I agree with you that CLee is the superior offensive player, he didn't fit the team concept that we have today. Carlos is a helluva player, but its hard to imagine where this team would be without Scott Podsednik and everything that he adds to this team that we didn't have in the years we had Carlos.

 

With a different team, I might say that it wasnt the smartest of trades. But I just think that Podsednik was exactly what this team needed.

 

And I don't really think you're crazy. I just said that for effect.

[CanOfCorn]

If you saw the Sunday night game where Pods caused Weaver to pay so much attention to him that he twisted his ankle and threw the ball into the stands...that's what Pods gives us that CLee doesn't. If we didn't have Konerko or Everett or Thomas or Dye, I would say we need Lee. Milwaukee needed someone to drive in runs, protect Geoff Jenkins and Lyle Overbay and they got him in Carlos Lee.

[sayitaintso]

It was posted by someone named Winsox05, apparantly someone who still thinks offense wins championships...even though in the past three years we have none.

 

And I've heard about that InsiderInfo fool.

Oh he is always full of s***. He thought that we should trade for Jay Gibbons and Scott Spezio. I would go on the message boards and read his posts. Complete Dumbass.

[sayitaintso]

It was posted by someone named Winsox05, apparantly someone who still thinks offense wins championships...even though in the past three years we have none.

 

And I've heard about that InsiderInfo fool.

If you ever see a topic made by insiderinfo, read it. They are usually so unbelieveablly funny because of his stupidity. He once posted that he thought that Konerko could steal 50 bases in a season.

[Kyyle23]

Speaking of Dumbasses and Insider Info, does anyone around here have ESPN insider? The Royals rah rah Rob Neyer has some disparaging information about the White Sox and why they shouldnt be winning, and I was wondering what it entailed. The story is in the middle of the ESPN page under Ozzies smiling face with the title

 

"The White Sox are winning games they shouldn't win. Rob Neyer offers three American League stats that you should know. "

 

If it could be posted I would be a happy drinker

[GoodAsGould]

While im a big Clee fan I have to admit we need Pods on this team more than we do Clee. Although I wouldnt call Pods that much of a better fielder because he is actually a horrible fielder just has speed to make up for it most of the time.

 

That said i was a big fan of keeping Lee and trading Konerko but if that was the case we obviously couldnt of got Pods, so I guess in the end it all worked out.

[CanOfCorn]

Speaking of Dumbasses and Insider Info, does anyone around here have ESPN insider? The Royals rah rah Rob Neyer has some disparaging information about the White Sox and why they shouldnt be winning, and I was wondering what it entailed. The story is in the middle of the ESPN page under Ozzies smiling face with the title

 

"The White Sox are winning games they shouldn't win. Rob Neyer offers three American League stats that you should know. "

 

If it could be posted I would be a happy drinker  

 

This is the White Sox part of the Rob Neyer article. There is more, but it's about the Red Sox plunking batters.

 

 

9-11 (White Sox's record in games they shouldn't win)

When teams don't score more than three runs, they nearly always lose. You might be thinking, "Is it really so hard to win a game in which you score three runs?" No, it's not. But three's the upper limit here; all those three-runs-or-fewer games also include twos, ones and zeroes. And it's awfully hard to win if you don't score.

 

Anyway, a year ago the Cardinals were 13-33 (.283) in games in which they scored three or fewer runs, and they were the best in the majors. Meanwhile, the White Sox last season were 7-50 in those games, third worst in the majors.

 

And this season? The White Sox are 9-11 (.450), tops in the majors. No. 2 in the majors: the Angels, who are 11-20 (.355) in games in which they score three or fewer runs. Oh, and in case you're wondering, another key to the White Sox' success is that they haven't played many of these games. They've scored three or fewer in 20 games; only the Red Sox and Rangers, with 19 apiece, have played fewer. So the White Sox are generally scoring enough runs to give themselves a chance, and when they don't they've still got a chance. Hey, maybe there's something to this run-manufacturing after all.

 

Oh, one more thing: Every team in the major leagues has won at least two of these games. Except one. The New York Yankeeographies have scored three or fewer runs in 24 games, and they've lost every one of them. Zero and 24. Don't worry, True Believers, they'll eventually win one. If Derek Jeter can hit a grand slam, anything's possible.

 

(Thanks to STATS, Inc. for all the above numbers.)

 

24 Runs (next to nothing)

Here's where two teams finished last season in American League runs scored:

 

 

5. Indians  85811. Royals 720  (difference of 138)

Now, the same spots in 2005:

 

 

5. White Sox 32311. Tigers      299  (24)

The White Sox have scored 24 more runs than the Tigers (who play in the Grand Canyon of ballparks) and they've scored 22 more runs than the Royals (who are running a Triple-A lineup out there on a semi-regular basis). Oh, and did I mention the Devil Rays? They've got the worst record in the American League, yet they've scored five fewer runs than the first-place White Sox and three more runs than the first-place Angels.

 

The four top-scoring teams in the league – the Rangers (375 runs), Red Sox (370), Yankees (361) and Orioles (356) – have separated themselves from the pack, but there's little practical difference between the rest of the clubs, in terms of scoring.

 

What does it mean? Two things. One, it's still fairly early. I've got absolutely no doubt that a lot of these bunched-up teams won't be so bunched up in September. And two, maybe Commissioner Bud's beloved competitive balance really is operational this season. If so, it should be a fun season.

[sayitaintso]

Rob Neyer is a jackass. Did anybody else notice that he never said pitching was why we're winning games too.

[JUGGERNAUT]

I've said it before & I will say it again. We did not get enough for what Carlos Lee was worth at the time. Milw was not the only team calling Kenny. There will several suitors for Lee.

 

I don't think you realize how much you overpaid. You traded a guy coming off a career year who was clearly the MVP of a team for the NL's SB leader who was coming off a bad year at the plate & a average at best relief pitcher. The PTBNL was a joke.

 

The Brewers had to be laughing their arses off as soon as KW consented to the deal. That had speed on the team to compensate for the loss of Pods. To them it was no big deal. Getting Lee was huge. The fact he is leading the NL in RBI is something they themselves couldn't have dreamed up.

 

If it had to be Lee (I'm still not convinced of that) then we had better be getting 2 solid RP with Pods. In all trade talk starting from last July it was believed that a team had to be willing to give up a #2/#3 starter for Lee.

If you're going to shift that focus to a SB leader then you better damn well be getting top of the line help in relief.

 

29 yr old RH Mike Wise 04 2.93 NPERA, .659 OOP

26 yr old RH Mike Adams 04 2.95 NPERA .666 OOP

 

Luis Vizc 04 3.34 NPERA .724 OOP

 

Pods+Wise+Adams for Lee is reasonable.

 

The Bullpen could have been: Hermy, Wise, Politte, Cotts, Marte, Shingo

You have the option of bringing Adams up when Shingo struggled.

 

How many losses do we at the hands of poor pitching by Luis? At least 6.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?statsId=6291

All 1 run games & all games where Luis gave up 1 or more R.

 

Mike Wise leads the NL in NPERA for relievers this year. Cost? $350K

 

I don't want to hear that KW couldn't get these guys.

C Lee 04 RPG 6.70, 103R, 99RBI, 310TB

S Pods 04 RPG 4.34 85R, 39RBI, 233TB

 

When it comes to trades the NUMBERS mean a whole LOT more than

potential.

[Kyyle23]

I've said it before & I will say it again.  We did not get enough for what Carlos Lee was worth at the time.  Milw was not the only team calling Kenny.  There will several suitors for Lee.

 

I don't think you realize how much you overpaid.  You traded a guy coming off a career year who was clearly the MVP of a team for the NL's SB leader who was coming off a bad year at the plate & a average at best relief pitcher.  The PTBNL was a joke.

 

The Brewers had to be laughing their arses off as soon as KW consented to the deal.  That had speed on the team to compensate for the loss of Pods.  To them it was no big deal.  Getting Lee was huge.  The fact he is leading the NL in RBI is something they themselves couldn't have dreamed up.

 

If it had to be Lee (I'm still not convinced of that) then we had better be getting 2 solid RP with Pods.  In all trade talk starting from last July it was believed that a team had to be willing to give up a #2/#3 starter for Lee.

If you're going to shift that focus to a SB leader then you better damn well be getting top of the line help in relief.

 

29 yr old RH Mike Wise 04 2.93 NPERA, .659 OOP

26 yr old RH Mike Adams 04 2.95 NPERA .666 OOP

 

Luis Vizc 04 3.34 NPERA .724 OOP

 

Pods+Wise+Adams for Lee is reasonable. 

 

The Bullpen could have been: Hermy, Wise, Politte, Cotts, Marte, Shingo 

You have the option of bringing Adams up when Shingo struggled.

 

How many losses do we at the hands of poor pitching by Luis?  At least 6.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?statsId=6291

All 1 run games & all games where Luis gave up 1 or more R.

 

Mike Wise leads the NL in NPERA for relievers this year.  Cost? $350K

 

I don't want to hear that KW couldn't get these guys.

C Lee 04 RPG 6.70, 103R, 99RBI, 310TB

S Pods 04 RPG 4.34 85R, 39RBI, 233TB

 

When it comes to trades the NUMBERS mean a whole LOT more than

potential.

 

I dont think this has been said about the Carlos Lee trade. Get over it. its over and done. Player value is subject to mostly perception and opinion, and then money, and in the distance, talent.

 

the reality is that the White Sox are way better off from the trade then the Milwaukee Brewers are. This cannot be disputed, the Sox have the best record in the majors. And after this year the Brewers are going to have to start thinking about Carlos Lee's escalating salary.

 

A-Rod was traded for Alphonso Soriano and cash, in what was considered a very lopsided deal. Since A-Rod left the team, the Rangers have been by far better than they were when A-Rod was still on the team. Do you think rangers fans b**** and moan about having the better player on their team? No, because they have a much better TEAM, they arent paying over 1/4 of their payroll to one player and can now distribute the money. Could the Rangers have gotten better players for A-Rod? Sure, Manny Ramirez was almost a Ranger.

 

Bottom line is that it doesnt matter anymore. It is done, and now it is just crying over spilled milk, when the cow is three feet away(and currently the best team in the majors).

[ptatc]

I've said it before & I will say it again.  We did not get enough for what Carlos Lee was worth at the time.  Milw was not the only team calling Kenny.  There will several suitors for Lee.

 

I don't think you realize how much you overpaid.  You traded a guy coming off a career year who was clearly the MVP of a team for the NL's SB leader who was coming off a bad year at the plate & a average at best relief pitcher.  The PTBNL was a joke.

 

The Brewers had to be laughing their arses off as soon as KW consented to the deal.  That had speed on the team to compensate for the loss of Pods.  To them it was no big deal.  Getting Lee was huge.  The fact he is leading the NL in RBI is something they themselves couldn't have dreamed up.

 

If it had to be Lee (I'm still not convinced of that) then we had better be getting 2 solid RP with Pods.  In all trade talk starting from last July it was believed that a team had to be willing to give up a #2/#3 starter for Lee.

If you're going to shift that focus to a SB leader then you better damn well be getting top of the line help in relief.

 

29 yr old RH Mike Wise 04 2.93 NPERA, .659 OOP

26 yr old RH Mike Adams 04 2.95 NPERA .666 OOP

 

Luis Vizc 04 3.34 NPERA .724 OOP

 

Pods+Wise+Adams for Lee is reasonable. 

 

The Bullpen could have been: Hermy, Wise, Politte, Cotts, Marte, Shingo 

You have the option of bringing Adams up when Shingo struggled.

 

How many losses do we at the hands of poor pitching by Luis?  At least 6.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?statsId=6291

All 1 run games & all games where Luis gave up 1 or more R.

 

Mike Wise leads the NL in NPERA for relievers this year.  Cost? $350K

 

I don't want to hear that KW couldn't get these guys.

C Lee 04 RPG 6.70, 103R, 99RBI, 310TB

S Pods 04 RPG 4.34 85R, 39RBI, 233TB

 

When it comes to trades the NUMBERS mean a whole LOT more than

potential.

 

When you make a trade you can only get what other teams are willing to give. You can think Lee is worth more but if the other team doesn't agree it's not going to happen. KW's priority was getting a leadoff hitter and decreasing salary to sign pitching. I'm sure that if another team had a leadoff hitter he wanted with better package he would have done it. There are other complicating factors, mostly Lee's salary. I'm sure the 8.5 million on a short term contract scared many other teams away.

 

Another factor may have been Lee's attitude. If you believe Ozzie's, KW's and Buerhle's comments after the trade (assuming they all weren't just doing spin control) they wanted to get rid of him. It had nothing to do with hitting, everyone agrees his hitting stats were and are superior. But if the attitude leaked out, this also decreased his trade value.

 

Overall KW accomplished his goal, got a leadoff hitter and a percieved good bullpen arm and decreased salaryto sign needed players. He probably could have absorbed some of Lee's salary and gotten a better package as you stated but I think KW wanted the money to sign the proven major league players.

Edited June 21, 2005 by ptatc

[Buehrle>Wood]

Carlos is having a huge season and is a far superior offensive baseball player than Pods. Defensively, Pods is better, but he's not exactly a Gold Glove left fielder either. I personally think the most positive thing about that trade was the money it freed up to acquire other players. If the money was no object, call me crazy call me dumb, but I would take CLee over Pods and Vizcaino as well.

I'm just going to reference you these brilliant words of Y2HH. Truer words have never been spoken:

 

 

"We are winning -- WITHOUT Lee.

 

Not to mention we HAD Lee and for three consecutive years we BOMBED. I recall frequent miscues by Lee, spurts of total lazyness, dumb outfield plays and then ultra-hot-streaks where he'd hit multiple home runs and drive in 6 RBI's in a game...when we were already winning that game 10-0. I never recall Lee helping us a lick when we were down 1-0, though. How many times has Pods changed the face of a game just by getting on when we were down 1-0?!"

[Y2HH]

 

I'm just going to reference you these brilliant words of Y2HH. Truer words have never been spoken:

"We are winning -- WITHOUT Lee.

 

Not to mention we HAD Lee and for three consecutive years we BOMBED. I recall frequent miscues by Lee, spurts of total lazyness, dumb outfield plays and then ultra-hot-streaks where he'd hit multiple home runs and drive in 6 RBI's in a game...when we were already winning that game 10-0. I never recall Lee helping us a lick when we were down 1-0, though. How many times has Pods changed the face of a game just by getting on when we were down 1-0?!"

[nvxplorer]

I'd like to remind the Lee backers that the Sox are third in the AL in homeruns. Only the Orioles and Rangers have more, and Frank missed the first two months of the season.

 

Good teams need balance. The Sox have plenty of power. What they needed was speed. Pods not only has speed, he has Lou Brock speed. Even without the salary implications, the trade was wise. Power slumps. Speed never slumps.

Edited June 21, 2005 by nvxplorer

[witesoxfan]

9-11 (White Sox's record in games they shouldn't win)...

And this season? The White Sox are 9-11 (.450), tops in the majors. No. 2 in the majors: the Angels, who are 11-20 (.355) in games ... Hey, maybe there's something to this run-manufacturing after all.

 

No s***, Rob.

 

I also like how the Angels are 2nd there too...they bunt and steal a lot too. And I'd like to see where the Twins were the past couple years on that same exact list, and where they are this year too.

[Dick Allen]

I'd like to remind the Lee backers that the Sox are third in the AL in homeruns. Only the Orioles and Rangers have more, and Frank missed the first two months of the season.

 

Good teams need balance. The Sox have plenty of power. What they needed was speed. Pods not only has speed, he has Lou Brock speed. Even without the salary implications, the trade was wise. Power slumps. Speed never slumps.

 

The balance argument coming from last year has been blown way out of proportion. The White Sox struggled last year because their 3rd and 4th place hitters, both among the top hitters in baseball, missed a lot of time with injury, and they were replaced with Joe Borchard, and an injured and way out of shape Carl Everett. That's hard to overcome. The fact of the matter is the Sox have been winning games this year with home runs as well. Pods has a lot of SB, but he has 9 CS and a couple of pick offs. Carlos has 8 SB for Milwaukee and 27 more extra base hits than Scott.

[Dick Allen]

I'm just going to reference you these brilliant words of Y2HH. Truer words have never been spoken:

"We are winning -- WITHOUT Lee.

 

Not to mention we HAD Lee and for three consecutive years we BOMBED. I recall frequent miscues by Lee, spurts of total lazyness, dumb outfield plays and then ultra-hot-streaks where he'd hit multiple home runs and drive in 6 RBI's in a game...when we were already winning that game 10-0. I never recall Lee helping us a lick when we were down 1-0, though. How many times has Pods changed the face of a game just by getting on when we were down 1-0?!"

You obviously don't remember the 4th of July game at the Urinal last season when the Sox were losing 1-0 in the top of the ninth when CLee hit one into the bleachers. We also HAD Konerko and we HAD Buerhle and a lot of guys from the team when they bombed that are now on a successful team.

[Balta1701]

No s***, Rob.

 

I also like how the Angels are 2nd there too...they bunt and steal a lot too.  And I'd like to see where the Twins were the past couple years on that same exact list, and where they are this year too.

 

The Angels also have this habit of taking the fewest walks in the AL. Just something to chew on.

 

Does anyone have ESPN insider access? I'd love to read that Neyer piece but I'm a poor graduate student.

Edited June 21, 2005 by Balta1701

[thomsonmi]

Why do we keep having this argument? The salary room freed up is what made this trade. You don't have to agree with the self-induced salary cap that the White Sox live under but that's what KW has to deal with and by making this trade he was able to get AJ, El Duque, and Iguchi. Does anyone really object to CLee for Pods, Vizcaino, AJ, El Duque, and Iguchi?

 

Let me state as clearly as possible no tradey Carlos Lee, than no signee AJ, El Duque, and Iguchi.

 

This was a brilliant move by KW and in retrospect its even smarter than I thought it was at the time.

[Dick Allen]

Why do we keep having this argument?  The salary room freed up is what made this trade.  You don't have to agree with the self-induced salary cap that the White Sox live under but that's what KW has to deal with and by making this trade he was able to get AJ, El Duque, and Iguchi.  Does anyone really object to CLee for Pods, Vizcaino, AJ, El Duque, and Iguchi?

 

Let me state as clearly as possible no tradey Carlos Lee, than no signee AJ, El Duque, and Iguchi.

 

This was a brilliant move by KW and in retrospect its even smarter than I thought it was at the time.

 

My original post stated the best thing about the trade was the money being freed. I mentioned if money was no object, I'd rather have Carlos than Pods and LV.

[Kyyle23]

You obviously don't remember the 4th of July game at the Urinal last season when the Sox were losing 1-0 in the top of the ninth when CLee hit one into the bleachers. We also HAD Konerko and we HAD Buerhle and a lot of guys from the team when they bombed that are now on a successful team.

 

you are using one game as an argument for keeping a player? Your arguments are much better than that, Dick.

 

Buehrle rarely has bombed in a White Sox uniform.