Dumba$$e$

[Wedge]

My original post stated the best thing about the trade was the money being freed. I mentioned if money was no object, I'd rather have Carlos than Pods and LV.

 

I'm not so sure. Carlos for Pods is a tough call. If you were asking who's the better outfielder, you'd probably say Lee is better in the more stereotypical sense: avg, HR, RBI. That said, Pods brings a lot to the table that you don't find in a lot of players in terms of his speed and savvy on the basepaths. Because Pods brings something that you don't find a lot of in MLB, I'd almost be really tempted to take him.

[Dick Allen]

you are using one game as an argument for keeping a player?  Your arguments are much better than that, Dick. 

 

Buehrle rarely has bombed in a White Sox uniform.

 

No I'm not. I'm pointing out that just because the team didn't win with Carlos it is an obnoxious argument that it was time to cut bait. He was a very productive hitter during his stay with the Sox and I was pointing to an example of a 1-0 game where he had an impact when it was implied he never had an impact in that kind of situation. As I pointed out a couple of times, the key to this trade was money. If SP and LV combined made the same amount a CL, I don't think there would have been a chance in hell KW made the deal. Pods has played well, better than I expected. The others with whom the money freed up were acquired have been key performers. The total scope of the trade has worked out well for the Sox. My argument was if there was no money concern, ie. they would have still been able to bring in El Duque, Iguchi, and AJ, I would much prefer Carlos to Scott and Vizcaino.

[CanOfCorn]

If pure numbers were the measure of a teams ability to win, then the Yankees would have won every year from 1996. With maybe the Red Sox thrown in a year or two. If a team is hitting .250, but .300 w/ RISP and RISP w/ 2 outs, they are probably winning more games than a team hitting .300 w/ .250 and .250. It's simplifying the argument.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Pods has a lot of SB, but he has 9 CS and a couple of pick offs. Carlos has 8 SB for Milwaukee and 27 more extra base hits than Scott.

 

That may be true but Pods presence at the plate & on the bases is like that of Frank Thomas' in that it causes a team to alter their play. It puts added pressure on the pitcher, & causes the defense to move in to be able to defend the bunt. That means when Pods does get a solid hit the defense is less prepared to defend it. If there were a stat that measured the frequency of mistakes by the defense when Pods is AB or OB he would be amongst the league leaders. Lee would not.

 

I have never argued against the need for the White Sox to get Pods. They were woeful in the SB dept last year. They didn't pressure any one defensively & Thomas went out they had few players to alter a team's play. Team's became comfortable when playing the 1-dim power driven White Sox.

 

If some of you trully want to cling to the belief that Pods+Vizc & a nothing PTBNL was the best KW could get from Milw for Lee then you are ignoring the facts. Many analysts weighed in on this trade & all of them weighed it heavily in favor of the Brewers.

 

All that you say about the salary dump is true. It's not $8.5M but rather the $16M over 2 yrs. But that doesn't ignore the fact that the Brewers WERE desperate to trade for a STRONG bat this off-season & most analysts felt they were willing to overpay to get it. Their need for a bat like Lee was even more obvious than the Sox need for Pods.

 

When it comes to this trade I can't ignore what so many others have written:

We should have gotten more for Lee & there's no good reason why we didn't.

 

As you said it's behind us now. His other moves have far exceeded the failure to get better value in this one. We talk a lot about who he picked up & never enough about who he retained. The commitment to these guys has been a big part of the story.

 

Everett, Iguchi, AJ, Widger, Ozuna, Harris, Garland, Hermy, Cotts, & Politte - They are all overacheivers this year & they are all heroes on this team. They were not expected to perform at the level they have.

 

I can accept Williams failure to get Wise + Adams from Milw because I would not have had the foresight to keep the guys he did. With the re-emergence of Shingo of late a poor performing Vizc can be relegated to mop up duty. If he can perform well in mop up duty then maybe we can include him in a pkg to entice Sea for Guardado.

[Pauly8509CWS]

The bottom line here is, we needed a table setter in Pods. We got him knowing that our best eye at the plate was going to be out until June. Pods is disruptive at the plate (pitchers don't want to walk him or let him get on more so than anyone else in the line up) and on the basepaths. This is something that helped change the face of this team. On the side though, I personally dont think he is a very good OF. No arm and just makes me cringe the way he shuffles his feet before a flyball comes down.

[ISF]

"Speed never slumps"

 

 

Speed hit .244 last year. I'd call that a year long slump.

 

I like what Pods has brought this year, and I was skeptical for a long time. But anyone bashing Lee as abad fielder needs to pay attention, because the past 2 years he was a better fielder than Pods will ever be.

 

Lee can throw you out. Pods cannot. I throw harder than Pods.

Pods has had several plays this year where he didn't even move on a hit ball until it was way too late to make a play.

 

Pods has brought a new dynamic to this team. A very important one. I'm glad we have it. But to suggest he's an improvement defensively, or to insinuate we lost in previous years because we had Lee is ludicrous.

We lost in previous years because our bullpen sucked, our 5th starter sucked, and we played poor fundamental baseball. Nobody could bunt worth a s***.

 

Carlos Lee is contending for NL MVP right now, and I for one am happy for him. I wish we still had him, he's a hell of a ballplayer. I wish we could have traded someone else. I wish we didn't have the dumb ass budget constraints that forced KW to jettison him in order to dump salary.

[knightni]

Winsox?

 

Sounds like Windsock to me.

Edited June 21, 2005 by knightni

[wsox08]

Pod does things that aren't even kept track of in the stats... He is a big speed presence on the bases like Frank is at the plate. CLee was great but we can't just have a bunch of guys hitting home runs.. That doesn't work. We had to trade Lee to get the team we have now, which is obviously successful...

[southsider2k5]

"Speed never slumps"

Speed hit .244 last year. I'd call that a year long slump.

 

I like what Pods has brought this year, and I was skeptical for a long time. But anyone bashing Lee as abad fielder needs to pay attention, because the past 2 years he was a better fielder than Pods will ever be.

 

Lee can throw you out. Pods cannot. I throw harder than Pods.

Pods has had several plays this year where he didn't even move on a hit ball until it was way too late to make a play.

 

Pods has brought a new dynamic to this team. A very important one. I'm glad we have it. But to suggest he's an improvement defensively, or to insinuate we lost in previous years because we had Lee is ludicrous.

We lost in previous years because our bullpen sucked, our 5th starter sucked, and we played poor fundamental baseball. Nobody could bunt worth a s***.

 

Carlos Lee is contending for NL MVP right now, and I for one am happy for him. I wish we still had him, he's a hell of a ballplayer. I wish we could have traded someone else. I wish we didn't have the dumb ass budget constraints that forced KW to jettison him in order to dump salary.

 

Speed doesn't = batting average. Speed = 70 stolen bases.

[ISF]

Speed doesn't = batting average.  Speed = 70 stolen bases.

 

 

Well then I guess Alex Sanchez should be getting offered a top dollar contract any day now.

[Balta1701]

Speed doesn't = batting average.  Speed = 70 stolen bases.

Speed does = Batting average if you hit the ball on the ground. If you do that, you'll simply outrun enough ground balls to keep your average up.

 

If you're hitting the ball in the air every time, then Speed isn't much value.

[jackie hayes]

Why is PHT less fun than before? Exhibit #1. Using a post from a completely separate message board to go fishing for people to disagree w/, just to exult. Why the f didn't you just discuss it where you found it?

 

I thought it was a bad trade and I still think so. And you say nothing that I haven't heard a million times already this year about Pods and Carlos. Consequently, gee, I think I still have the same position, Carlos>>>>>>>Pods. Noone's going to convince anyone at this point.

 

Had I made a thread titled 'You dumbasses who wanted Carlos traded', then maybe this rant would make some sense. I'm terribly sorry there are people in the world who disagree w/ you, but there it is, get comfortable w/ it.

 

Why does this piss me off so much? B/c this trade happened over 6 f'n months ago, and people are still bringing it up out of nowhere just to pitch into others who disagree w/ them. So if I post any criticism here, someone's going to lord it over me unless the worst case scenario happens? Baseball being uncertain, why the f would I post anything then? I'm a Sox fan, and I've rooted for Podsednik every ab he's had in a Sox uniform. But it's getting to be a lot more fun doing that away from Soxtalk, where I can just pull for the Sox w/o someone insinuating that believing Carlos is a very good player, better than Pods, is some act of treason. Most posters that I can think of who were critical of the trade have dropped it. Why can't you?

 

So there's my answer rant. I don't want any war of words, so I'm done w/ the thread. Fire away at my dumb ass.

[qwerty]

I am sorry but podsednik has been caught way too many times on the base paths this year. I am not just talking his caught stealing but all of his pick offs ( 7 or 8 i believe now and not even have way through the season? Sure he is effective but not at a very good rate. Even though this does not seem to be the general concensus i think he ''presence'' has been overated.

 

Btw i know basically no one is gonan agree with me on this.

Edited June 22, 2005 by qwerty

[wsox08]

I am sorry but podsednik has been caught way too many times on the base paths this year. I am not just talking his caught stealing but all of his pick offs ( 7 or 8 i believe now and not even have way through the season? Sure he is effective but not at a very good rate. Even though this does not seem to be the general concensus i think he ''presence'' has been overated.

 

Btw i know basically no one is gonan agree with me on this.

I disagree

[Jabroni]

I am sorry but podsednik has been caught way too many times on the base paths this year. I am not just talking his caught stealing but all of his pick offs ( 7 or 8 i believe now and not even have way through the season? Sure he is effective but not at a very good rate. Even though this does not seem to be the general concensus i think he ''presence'' has been overated.

 

Btw i know basically no one is gonan agree with me on this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You discount the fact that his speed allows him to score from 1st and 2nd on hits that many other players wouldn't be able to.

[qwerty]

You discount the fact that his speed allows him to score from 1st and 2nd on hits that many other players wouldn't be able to.

 

He scores from first on a double and from second on a single like anyone else on the team not named konerko, pierz, or thomas. Crede is slow as all hell but he seems to run the bases fine.

[Jabroni]

He scores from first on a double and from second on a single like anyone else on the team not named konerko, pierz, or thomas. Crede is slow as all hell but he seems to run the bases fine.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So Podsednik's .289 AVG and .363 OBP doesn't make up for the 7 or 8 times that he has been picked off?

[Rowand44]

I am sorry but podsednik has been caught way too many times on the base paths this year. I am not just talking his caught stealing but all of his pick offs ( 7 or 8 i believe now and not even have way through the season? Sure he is effective but not at a very good rate. Even though this does not seem to be the general concensus i think he ''presence'' has been overated.

 

Btw i know basically no one is gonan agree with me on this.

He's still 36 for 45 stealing bases which includes pickoffs so that's still a pretty good rate. I do agree though that's he's been picked off a bit to much for my liking but that's cause he's trying to make things happen. I don't even think you could argue the fact that when he's on base the pitchers seem to focus all their attention on him rather then the batter which has helped Gooch out so much this year.

[Jabroni]

He's still 36 for 45 stealing bases which includes pickoffs so that's still a pretty good rate.  I do agree though that's he's been picked off a bit to much for my liking but that's cause he's trying to make things happen.  I don't even think you could argue the fact that when he's on base the pitchers seem to focus all their attention on him rather then the batter which has helped Gooch out so much this year.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The "caught stealing" stat doesn't include "pickoffs."

Edited June 22, 2005 by Jabroni

[qwerty]

So Podsednik's .289 AVG and .363 OBP doesn't make up for the 7 or 8 times that he has been picked off?

 

Then his 9 caught stealings... no. If you cannot steal bases at the very least 75% it is not worth it. That player is better off not stealing at all because it hurts the team int he long run. Sure he has converted over 75% of his steals but once you add in those 8 or so caught stealings it looks less than exciting to me. Another thing that has concerned me is his dramatic decrease in walks the last month or so. Six walks in a month time frame from your lead-off hitter is s***ty.

Edited June 22, 2005 by qwerty

[Rowand44]

The "caught stealing" stat doesn't include "pickoffs."

You're correct, I'm a little out of it right now

[Jabroni]

Then his 9 caught stealings... no. If you cannot steal bases at the very least 75% it is not worth it. That player is better off not stealing at all because it hurts the team int he long run. Sure he has converted over 75% of his steals but once you add in those 8 or so caught stealings it looks less than exciting to me. Another thing that has concerned me is his dramatic decrease in walks the last month or so. Six walks in a month time frame from your lead-off hitter is s***ty.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I just don't know how anyone could think Podsednik hasn't been a huge addition to our team. We haven't had a good leadoff hitter since Ray Durham.

 

I also believe you are reading too much Baseball Prospectus. Those stat-heads peddle that kind of crap. Podsednik's caught-stealings and pickoffs obviously haven't hurt us too much.

Edited June 22, 2005 by Jabroni

[qwerty]

I just don't know how anyone could think Podsednik hasn't been a huge addition to our team.  We haven't had a good leadoff hitter since Ray Durham.

 

I also believe you are reading too much Baseball Prospectus.  Those stats are a bunch of crap.  Podsednik's caught-stealings and pickoffs obviously haven't hurt us too much.

 

Lol. O.k.

[Jabroni]

Lol. O.k.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Have Podsednik's CS's and PO's hurt us in the long run? I don't think so. I guess the 75% rule doesn't mean much then.

Edited June 22, 2005 by Jabroni

[YASNY]

Carlos Lee is now with the Milwaukee Brewers. End of story.