southsider2k5 Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Jun 23, 2005 -> 01:15 PM) Lee wasnt the reason we didnt won, thats kind of dumb to think that. Here is the reason we never won in the past.... Idonno maybe no 5th starter El Duque since he is our worse starter can be considered it and he is what 7-2... that has to be more wins from our 5th starter in the last 2-3 years alone. This year we are winning because we 5 good starters... up until lately our offense has been kind of pathetic for most of the season. And why do we have 5 good starting pitchers? Because we gained $7 million in payroll flexibility by trading Carlos Lee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimenez4MVP Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 In MLB salary has EVERYTHING to do with a trade. Do you think in the real world the Rangers would have accepted just Alfonzo Soriano for Alex Rodriguez? You are kidding yourself if you leave out the $7 million in payroll the Sox freed up, because that is why the deal was done. They knew they need to fill depth and didn't have the money to do it. If they don't do this deal, you are looking at another year of Ben Davis on the roster, Felix Diaz and company in the 5th starter spot, and some 2 more AAA pitchers in the pen in place of Vizcaino, and Hermanson. The money DOES matter. In fact to this team it was critical. If we don't make the Carlos Lee trade, this team is floundering in 3rd place, yet again, sucking wind to the Twins. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes but you like others do NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT I WAS SAYING.. Um duh, I know money matters.. but what I was talking about was what we got inreturn for Lee.. I was looking at it that way, NOT talking about the money, I was talking bout what we got in return.. understand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KansasSoxFan Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 QUOTE(gsoxs1 @ Jun 23, 2005 -> 11:14 AM) So far with both players helping thier respective teams. Espically Carlos still beating up on the Cubs. Does anyone know the 2005 win shares between Pods and Lee. Just Curious. On a side not can anyone really remember a tarde that has helped both teams like this? Check out this site: http://www.hardballtimes.com/winshares/index.php Carlos Lee: 13 WS through 6/22/05 Pods: 9 WS Vizcaino: 1 WS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 QUOTE(Jimenez4MVP @ Jun 23, 2005 -> 12:20 PM) Yes but you like others do NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT I WAS SAYING.. Um duh, I know money matters.. but what I was talking about was what we got inreturn for Lee.. I was looking at it that way, NOT talking about the money, I was talking bout what we got in return.. understand? I'm sure that if we offered to pay some of the salary of Lee's we could have gotten a better package of players. The reason we got the lesser package of players is that they had to take the salary and the fact that he could just be a one year player if they don't re-sign him to a biiger deal. The risk was on the Brewers side as far as being able to retain the player otherwise the Brewers will see nothing from the trade next year whereas we will have Spod and Viz for at least a few years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimenez4MVP Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Check out this site: http://www.hardballtimes.com/winshares/index.php Carlos Lee: 13 WS through 6/22/05 Pods: 9 WS Vizcaino: 1 WS <{POST_SNAPBACK}> All im saying is, I felt we gave away Lee for too little.. Thats my only complaint here, especially seeing what he is doing over in Milwuakee now.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 QUOTE(Jimenez4MVP @ Jun 23, 2005 -> 01:20 PM) Yes but you like others do NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT I WAS SAYING.. Um duh, I know money matters.. but what I was talking about was what we got inreturn for Lee.. I was looking at it that way, NOT talking about the money, I was talking bout what we got in return.. understand? That's funny, you seem to have no clue what I am saying. Maybe I should type slower? Refer back to the Soriano for Arod deal. Why would Texas trade the best player in baseball at a premium position for Soriano? Is the GM of Texas just stupid? It IS about the money. We got essentially $7 million in return to go with those players. If we had demanded all of these other players from Milwaukee to get a talent package equivelant to Carlos Lee, Milwaukee would have never accepted the deal. One major component of the deal was Milwaukee absorbing $7 million in payroll costs that would would have had to meet. That allowed us to get all of those other players. How can you not consider that a part of the trade? What you are saying it is equal to saying that it is stupid to put on just one shoe... well no kidding, but you can't put them both on at the sametime, so you have to put them on one at a time, and that is exactly what they did with the Lee trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimenez4MVP Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 That's funny, you seem to have no clue what I am saying. Maybe I should type slower? Refer back to the Soriano for Arod deal. Why would Texas trade the best player in baseball at a premium position for Soriano? Is the GM of Texas just stupid? It IS about the money. We got essentially $7 million in return to go with those players. If we had demanded all of these other players from Milwaukee to get a talent package equivelant to Carlos Lee, Milwaukee would have never accepted the deal. One major component of the deal was Milwaukee absorbing $7 million in payroll costs that would would have had to meet. That allowed us to get all of those other players. How can you not consider that a part of the trade? What you are saying it is equal to saying that it is stupid to put on just one shoe... well no kidding, but you can't put them both on at the sametime, so you have to put them on one at a time, and that is exactly what they did with the Lee trade. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> :headshake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 QUOTE(Jimenez4MVP @ Jun 23, 2005 -> 01:07 PM) With Pods leading off and stealing 36 bases you would imagine hed have a ton of more runs scored than someone batting 4th, which isnt the case here Need I mention the fact that half of Carlos's runs have come off of home runs, while 0 of Podsednik's runs have come off of home runs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimenez4MVP Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Need I mention the fact that half of Carlos's runs have come off of home runs, while 0 of Podsednik's runs have come off of home runs? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> And thats a problem how? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shakes Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Y2HH I agree with you 100%. There was a lot more to this trade than the players we got in return. Pods defense has been a major upgrade. I don't miss CLee standing on the warning track and not covering his gaps. I also don't miss his mental lapses in the field and on the base paths. Part of the pitching improving is the overall defense improving. I always like CLee and his numbers will always be good. Just remember that numbers can be deceiving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RibbieRubarb Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 QUOTE(Jimenez4MVP @ Jun 23, 2005 -> 12:30 PM) And thats a problem how? Ahh another Yahoo! Fantasy Baseball way of looking at the reality of the game. :headshake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greasywheels121 Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 You guys never have a problem finding something to complain about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 QUOTE(Jimenez4MVP @ Jun 23, 2005 -> 01:30 PM) And thats a problem how? When you said Pods has an advantage because he can steal bases. Witesox is saying Lee has an advantage because he can hit home runs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 QUOTE(Jimenez4MVP @ Jun 23, 2005 -> 01:29 PM) :headshake Nice comeback Lets see somemore of that line of logic. A batter should never sacrifice. It is stupid to make an out intentionally. (who cares if it moves a runner into scoring position) A pitcher should never pitch out. It is stupid to intentionally a ball, why would a pitcher every do that? (nevermind if it gets the catcher in position to throw out a runner trying to steal) A fielder should never throw to a cutoff man. how are you going to get a guy out if you aren't throwing to the correct base? (nevermind that two strong short throws can be better than one long weak, inaccurate one) Look a little deeper at the situation. The big picture is what is important here. The cash considerations were a major part of the deal, and because of them, the talent levels in the trade were altered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RibbieRubarb Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jun 23, 2005 -> 12:40 PM) Nice comeback Lets see somemore of that line of logic. A batter should never sacrifice. It is stupid to make an out intentionally. (who cares if it moves a runner into scoring position) A pitcher should never pitch out. It is stupid to intentionally a ball, why would a pitcher every do that? (nevermind if it gets the catcher in position to throw out a runner trying to steal) A fielder should never throw to a cutoff man. how are you going to get a guy out if you aren't throwing to the correct base? (nevermind that two strong short throws can be better than one long weak, inaccurate one) Look a little deeper at the situation. The big picture is what is important here. The cash considerations were a major part of the deal, and because of them, the talent levels in the trade were altered. Stop trying Mike. You're agruing to a generation who was raised on MVP Baseball for PS2, Sportscenter highlights and Fantasy Baseball stats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Controlled Chaos Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 That's what I'm thinking. I don't understand what is so hard to comprehend. We have a guy that has essential 47 runs scored to Clee 38 and he is 7 million dollars cheaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodAsGould Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jun 23, 2005 -> 06:28 PM) That's funny, you seem to have no clue what I am saying. Maybe I should type slower? Refer back to the Soriano for Arod deal. Why would Texas trade the best player in baseball at a premium position for Soriano? Is the GM of Texas just stupid? It IS about the money. We got essentially $7 million in return to go with those players. If we had demanded all of these other players from Milwaukee to get a talent package equivelant to Carlos Lee, Milwaukee would have never accepted the deal. One major component of the deal was Milwaukee absorbing $7 million in payroll costs that would would have had to meet. That allowed us to get all of those other players. How can you not consider that a part of the trade? What you are saying it is equal to saying that it is stupid to put on just one shoe... well no kidding, but you can't put them both on at the sametime, so you have to put them on one at a time, and that is exactly what they did with the Lee trade. You want some logic ok, A-Rod was being paid 25 million a year that is a whole lot different than what Carlos was being paid and Texas ate up some of that contract in the trade 2.... the A-Rod for Soriano deal isnt even close to the Clee for Podsenick one. And even if they ate up all of Clee's contract you still could get a lot more than Podsenick for him... because Hinton is a non-prospect and Vizcaino..... :puke The point of the matter is even with the brewers taking up all of Clee's contract we still should of been able to get much better talent in return, for example in that A-Rod for Soriano deal the Rangers also got this stud prospect SS I think... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimenez4MVP Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Nice comeback Lets see somemore of that line of logic. A batter should never sacrifice. It is stupid to make an out intentionally. (who cares if it moves a runner into scoring position) A pitcher should never pitch out. It is stupid to intentionally a ball, why would a pitcher every do that? (nevermind if it gets the catcher in position to throw out a runner trying to steal) A fielder should never throw to a cutoff man. how are you going to get a guy out if you aren't throwing to the correct base? (nevermind that two strong short throws can be better than one long weak, inaccurate one) Look a little deeper at the situation. The big picture is what is important here. The cash considerations were a major part of the deal, and because of them, the talent levels in the trade were altered. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yet again you dont understand, so I wont waste my time explaining it to you because you didnt get it once, you didnt get it twice, my money is on it passing by you once again.. And RibbieRubarb, by saying whats wrong with HR's that has nothing to do with "Yahoo Fantasy" view of the game.. All of you guys are looking past the point I was saying we should have gotten a better player than Hinton in the deal, thats ALL I am saying about this.. Jesus Christ, try to let that sink in for a while please.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 QUOTE(Jimenez4MVP @ Jun 23, 2005 -> 12:57 PM) No I wasnt trying to say that either.. I am just saying that people think Pods is helping this team out way more than Lee would be when thats not really the case.. yes I know the whole salary thingy, but I am just pissed we didnt get enough in return for Lee Carlos was doing this crap here as well... our whole team was bashers who could hit 30 HRs and drive in 100... we needed balance, and that's what we got in the deal. Look at the Cubs now, they are acting like the old White Sox, with bashers, but no one to lead off... sure, you'll score 10+ a lot... but you'll get shutout a lot "waiting for the 3-run homer." Believe me, we're just another team if we have el caballo instead of podsednik. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider17 Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 QUOTE(gsoxs1 @ Jun 23, 2005 -> 11:14 AM) So far with both players helping thier respective teams. Espically Carlos still beating up on the Cubs. Does anyone know the 2005 win shares between Pods and Lee. Just Curious. On a side not can anyone really remember a tarde that has helped both teams like this? Didn't see an answer on the first page of post so here it is: Lee 13 WS Podsednik 9 WS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimenez4MVP Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Lee with another HR today as well.. Lee wasnt the problem in the past, it was our pitching.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider17 Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Yes it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimenez4MVP Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 to make that a little magnified... Buehrle, Loaiza, Garland, Schoenweis, Wright :puke Buehrle, Garcia, Contreras, El Duque, Garland The difference between those two rotations is HUGE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 QUOTE(Jimenez4MVP @ Jun 23, 2005 -> 01:26 PM) Lee with another HR today as well.. Lee wasnt the problem in the past, it was our pitching.. Lee was part of the problem sure the pitching was part of the problem as well but it wasn't just the pitching. Those lineups were so inconsistant and Carlos was a huge part of it, I know his numbers always finished up fantastic but the number of times he'd pop out in a key situation on the first pitch was ridiculous. I wish Carlos the best, he's a great player but your kidding yourself if you think we'd be better off with Carlos rather then Scotty this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nvxplorer Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jun 23, 2005 -> 11:19 AM) In MLB salary has EVERYTHING to do with a trade. Do you think in the real world the Rangers would have accepted just Alfonzo Soriano for Alex Rodriguez? You are kidding yourself if you leave out the $7 million in payroll the Sox freed up, because that is why the deal was done. They knew they need to fill depth and didn't have the money to do it. If they don't do this deal, you are looking at another year of Ben Davis on the roster, Felix Diaz and company in the 5th starter spot, and some 2 more AAA pitchers in the pen in place of Vizcaino, and Hermanson. The money DOES matter. In fact to this team it was critical. If we don't make the Carlos Lee trade, this team is floundering in 3rd place, yet again, sucking wind to the Twins. No kidding. It's interesting how salary is or isn't an issue, depending on the trade being discussed. I remember threads (not sure if they were here) on how the Sox could get Todd Helton because Colorado wants to dump the huge salary. Salary is always an issue, and sometimes it is the only issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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