nvxplorer Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 QUOTE(Jimenez4MVP @ Jun 23, 2005 -> 11:20 AM) Yes but you like others do NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT I WAS SAYING.. Um duh, I know money matters.. but what I was talking about was what we got inreturn for Lee.. I was looking at it that way, NOT talking about the money, I was talking bout what we got in return.. understand? The contract goes with the player. You can't separate the two. In fact, legally, what is traded is the contract. The player is just part of that contract. What we traded was Lee's contract, and we received Pods' and Vizcaino's contracts in return. That is the only accurate way to assess the trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nvxplorer Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 To put the salary vs. talent argument into perspective. Players' contracts have been sold outright in the past. You could argue that one team received absolutely nothing in return, but that isn't the case. Money has to be considered. In many cases, such as the Lee trade, money is the deciding factor. In other cases, such as selling a player, money is the only factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBigHurt Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 (edited) In my view, Pods is part of the new chemistry that has made the Sox what they are today. While I certainly miss Lee, I'm not looking back, quite frankly. Edited June 23, 2005 by TheBigHurt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimenez4MVP Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Lee was part of the problem sure the pitching was part of the problem as well but it wasn't just the pitching. Those lineups were so inconsistant and Carlos was a huge part of it, I know his numbers always finished up fantastic but the number of times he'd pop out in a key situation on the first pitch was ridiculous. I wish Carlos the best, he's a great player but your kidding yourself if you think we'd be better off with Carlos rather then Scotty this year. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Lee did hit .323 with men in scoring position in his final two seasons in Chicago. :rolly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danman31 Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Wow, you really are ridiculous to be thinking that the dumbest baseball player ever (Carlos Lee) would be worth Podsednik. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Since April 25th Lee -- .286/.344/.592 Dye -- .306/.366/.582 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Trades are funny. Was the GM of Milw lying in that article? If not then KW messed up. Maybe he ought to look at the Sag ratings more before making these trades .. he might learn something. According to the Lee article the Brewer's GM was reluctant to give up Vizc because he was eyeing him to replace Kolb as the closer. So it sounds like we could have gotten Wise+Adams+Pods for Lee. The Sag ratings for 2004 point to Wise & Adams having better years than Vizc. Considering their price we could have saved .75 mil as well. Oh well .. Hermy & Politte have worked out real well. You can't really complain. Maybe Vizc will turn it around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 To end this...it's easy to put up a "base stat" like "Lee did hit .323 with men in scoring position in his final two seasons in Chicago". Sure, if you total EVERY opportunity... But how was he in the clutch...when it really mattered? I'll show you: By Situation ScorPosn, 2 outs - 21BB, 33K, .264AVG Close and Late - 18BB, 40K, .257AVG Nice. When we really needed him, in the clutch...he failed. When we were already leading by 30 runs...he'd do something. THAT is what I remember from Lee. We have the best team in the game and your arguing we'd be better with Lee. I mean this with all seriousness... Shut. The. f***. Up. -y2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHarris1 Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Could we quick add up with win shares of Iguchi, Duque, AJ, Pods and Viz compared to Carlos? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KansasSoxFan Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Jun 23, 2005 -> 05:24 PM) Could we quick add up with win shares of Iguchi, Duque, AJ, Pods and Viz compared to Carlos? Here ya go: http://tinyurl.com/9s2sh Iguchi: 9 WS (as of 6/22) Duque: 4 WS AJ: 7 WS Pods: 9 WS Viz: 1 WS Total: 30 WS Carlos: 13 WS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHarris1 Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 QUOTE(KansasSoxFan @ Jun 23, 2005 -> 05:31 PM) Here ya go: http://tinyurl.com/9s2sh Iguchi: 9 WS (as of 6/22) Duque: 4 WS AJ: 7 WS Pods: 9 WS Viz: 1 WS Total: 30 WS Carlos: 13 WS THANK YOU Since we signed Gooch, Duque, and AJ for what we saved with Carlos. We'll thats just badass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Jun 23, 2005 -> 05:24 PM) Could we quick add up with win shares of Iguchi, Duque, AJ, Pods and Viz compared to Carlos? What's the need? Pods is at 9, Caballo's at 13...I'd probably eat my shoe if like Pods and AJ werent more than Caballo, let alone Duque, Iguchi, and Viz(who has actually been mediocre in the month of June, instead of just awful) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHammer Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Stop pretending like we wouldn't have signed any of those guys if Lee wasn't dealt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHarris1 Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 (edited) QUOTE(TheHammer @ Jun 23, 2005 -> 05:35 PM) Stop pretending like we wouldn't have signed any of those guys if Lee wasn't dealt. You're kidding yourself if you think we would have signed the guys with Lee on the team. Edited June 23, 2005 by WHarris1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danman31 Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 To go with what Y2HH said about Carlos being anti-clutch, Pods is super clutch. Scoring Position: 11-37 (.324), 15 RBI, 5 BB, 3 K Scoring Position, 2 out: 7-17 (.412), 6 RBI, 4 BB, 1 K Close and Late: 11-37 (.297), 6 RBI, 3 BB, 4 K All of those numbers are above or well above his overall numbers. Pods>Carlos for this team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodAsGould Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 (edited) QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Jun 23, 2005 -> 10:36 PM) You're kidding yourself if you think we would have signed the guys with Lee on the team. we might of not signed all of them... but im guessing AJ still and El Duque... but probably not Tadahito.... and really I dont think if you let Willie start everyday there would be a huge drop off...dont get me wrong there would be a drop off but not as big as some of you would like to think. Btw my reasoning for this is we supposedly still have money so than that would be for El Duque and than Viz makes about as much if not more than AJ I think and willie is getting paid a lot less than Tadahito. Edited June 24, 2005 by SoxFan101 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Jun 24, 2005 -> 02:29 AM) we might of not signed all of them... but im guessing AJ still and El Duque... but probably not Tadahito.... and really I dont think if you let Willie start everyday there would be a huge drop off...dont get me wrong there would be a drop off but not as big as some of you would like to think. Btw my reasoning for this is we supposedly still have money so than that would be for El Duque and than Viz makes about as much if not more than AJ I think and willie is getting paid a lot less than Tadahito. Even as one of Harris' biggest backers, you lose at least .125 SLG% points from the switch. OBP would probably be about equal, and you lose a little defense, but sure not enough to make up for the SLG% points lost... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodAsGould Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Jun 24, 2005 -> 02:51 AM) Even as one of Harris' biggest backers, you lose at least .125 SLG% points from the switch. OBP would probably be about equal, and you lose a little defense, but sure not enough to make up for the SLG% points lost... you lose a little defense? Willie's range is >>>> Iguchi's other than that diving play the last game Iguchi's range hasnt been near Willie's... yes you lose some power but do we really need all that power from our #2 hole especially if Clee is still in the lineup. BTW i still like this current team because we are obviously the best team in baseball right now but im just discussing the trade which i think we got ripped off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danman31 Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Jun 23, 2005 -> 10:08 PM) BTW i still like this current team because we are obviously the best team in baseball right now but im just discussing the trade which i think we got ripped off. You're nuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodAsGould Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 QUOTE(danman31 @ Jun 24, 2005 -> 03:51 AM) You're nuts. Im nuts because while we are still 1st it doesnt mean everything KW did is perfect... and overall im a KW backer but I definitely wasnt behind this trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danman31 Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Jun 23, 2005 -> 10:57 PM) Im nuts because while we are still 1st it doesnt mean everything KW did is perfect... and overall im a KW backer but I definitely wasnt behind this trade. Carlos Lee is a dumb, poor fielding baseball player. People here think he is something spectacular. I was begging the Sox to get rid of him. Podsednik is very arguably the most valuable hitter on this team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 (edited) QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Jun 24, 2005 -> 03:08 AM) you lose a little defense? Willie's range is >>>> Iguchi's other than that diving play the last game Iguchi's range hasnt been near Willie's... yes you lose some power but do we really need all that power from our #2 hole especially if Clee is still in the lineup. BTW i still like this current team because we are obviously the best team in baseball right now but im just discussing the trade which i think we got ripped off. Yes, Harris does have a ton more range, but -- IMO, not to make up for the lost SLG% points. And, also IMO, you're nuts if you think otherwise. EDIT: And, by think otherwise, I'm talking strictly about Harris range vs. Iguchi's more extra-base hits. Personally, I wasn't a huge fan of the trade either, but I can't complain, so I won't. Edited June 24, 2005 by CWSGuy406 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 QUOTE(danman31 @ Jun 24, 2005 -> 03:59 AM) Carlos Lee is a dumb, poor fielding baseball player. People here think he is something spectacular. I was begging the Sox to get rid of him. Podsednik is very arguably the most valuable hitter on this team. Speaking from a defensive standpoint, Podsednik is about as bad as Lee. IMHO, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodAsGould Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 QUOTE(danman31 @ Jun 24, 2005 -> 03:59 AM) Carlos Lee is a dumb, poor fielding baseball player. People here think he is something spectacular. I was begging the Sox to get rid of him. Podsednik is very arguably the most valuable hitter on this team. Honestly fielding wise Pods isnt that much of an upgrade.... Clee has made some great plays this season and has a good arm compared to Pods who has speed but reads the ball horrible so has late jumps and a weak ass arm.... As for hitting... well he has been one of our best hitters but going into the trade he had only 2 years of major league experiance his rookie hitting .300 plus and than last year .242.. and he wasnt that good of a minor league hitter so really I dont think anyone expected him 2 be hitting as well as he has. In the off-season most people knew that one of Clee or Konerko would be gone.... and I still say we would of been much better off if Konerko was the one that was traded..... We might of been able to get a guy like Pierre for him which at the time would of been better(no one knew pierre would slump like this) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heads22 Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 I wish people would forget about Lee. He's a Milwaukee Brewer. Pods, Viz and Hinton are Sox. Pods, Viz, Hinton, Hernandez, AJ, Gooch>CLee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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