2005 Win Shares

[Balta1701]

What's the need?

 

Pods is at 9, Caballo's at 13...I'd probably eat my shoe if like Pods and AJ werent more than Caballo, let alone Duque, Iguchi, and Viz(who has actually been mediocre in the month of June, instead of just awful)

 

In terms of win shares also...something tells me that stat doesn't include something as subtle as sitting behind the plate for Garland, Buehrle, or Contreras and calling a great game.

 

Hell, right now I'd take A.J.'s ability to call a great game behind the plate even if he was putting up numbers like Crede in May. That's been by far his biggest contribution to this team; he can handle that pitching staff.

[danman31]

As for hitting... well he has been one of our best hitters but going into the trade he had only 2 years of major league experiance his rookie hitting .300 plus and than last year .242.. and he wasnt that good of a minor league hitter so really I dont think anyone expected him 2 be hitting as well as he has.

It's called a sophomore slump. You couldn't have really expected him to hit like he did in 2004.

[TheHammer]

Its also kind of pointless to add up all those winshares against Lee like we wouldn't have played with a catcher or 2B or another starter. We would have signed a 5th starter regardless and we would have probably picked up another reliever and starter at 2B or catcher.

 

The idea that KW is willing right now to add payroll which I believe to be true also makes it seem very possible that we might have been able to grab all those players if he thought it would make us a playoff team. Of course if Pods would start hitting like he did two seasons ago, people really wouldn't complain about the trade.

[GoodAsGould]

It's called a sophomore slump. You couldn't have really expected him to hit like he did in 2004.

 

 

A sophomore slump is an excuse for young guys... he was what 28 last year.... He is actually a litle older than Clee I think....

[Heads22]

Why are we talking about last year?

[sayitaintso]

I wish people would forget about Lee. He's a Milwaukee Brewer. Pods, Viz and Hinton are Sox.

 

Pods, Viz, Hinton, Hernandez, AJ, Gooch>CLee

[danman31]

Of course if Pods would start hitting like he did two seasons ago, people really wouldn't complain about the trade.

You shouldn't be complaining anyway.

 

A sophomore slump is an excuse for young guys... he was what 28 last year.... He is actually a litle older than Clee I think....

A sophomore slump has nothing to do with age. When you are a rookie pitchers don't know how to pitch to you, then they make the adjustment in the player's 2nd year. The 3rd year is for the hitter to adapt and become the player he will be the rest of his career.

[TheHammer]

Well you can complain if you want you know. Carlos Lee is a better baseball player than Pods is so obviously some people will be upset with the deal.

[danman31]

Carlos Lee is a better baseball player than Pods is so obviously some people will be upset with the deal.

Wow, I'm sorry you live in a square box where HRs is all that wins ballgames. Pods is more valuable to this team than he was the Brewers and visa versa for Carlos and the Brewers. Just because the Brewers benifitted from the deal doesn't mean the Sox lost on the deal.

Edited June 24, 2005 by danman31

[Balta1701]

Its also kind of pointless to add up all those winshares against Lee like we wouldn't have played with a catcher or 2B or another starter.  We would have signed a 5th starter regardless and we would have probably picked up another reliever and starter at 2B or catcher.

 

The idea that KW is willing right now to add payroll which I believe to be true also makes it seem very possible that we might have been able to grab all those players if he thought it would make us a playoff team.  Of course if Pods would start hitting like he did two seasons ago, people really wouldn't complain about the trade.

Yeah, we'd have played with a 2nd baseman and catcher. Willie Harris and Ben Davis. Exactly like we did last year. And you're saying we'd have signed a 5th starter...well, we basically ran all last year without a fifth starter, if we didn't have the salary room, who's to say we wouldn't have done the same thing? (Or started BMac as our 5th starter to open the season)

 

We barely added salary in the offseason compared to last year. Our big changes were salary shifts - Ordonez to Dye and Garcia, Lee to Iguchi, Pods, Viz, and El Duque. Our salary adds were Contreras's salary and somewhat Hermanson, along with signing contracts with ARow, Timo, Ben Davis, etc.

 

The reason we have room to add salary now is that we're a winning ballclub and that's drawing in more fans.

[TheHammer]

Wow, I'm sorry you live in a square box where HRs is all that wins ballgames. Pods is more valuable to this team than he was the Brewers and visa versa for the Brewers. Just because the Brewers benifitted from the deal doesn't mean the Sox lost on the deal.

 

Our team is winning because of pitching and clutch hitting and an aggressive style. I have been a little disappointed in Pods because I was hoping he would revert to his 2003 form and he has not. He only hits singles it seems. Fortunately he has done a very good job just finding ways to get on base. I knew he would steal a lot of bases if he was run a lot, that shouldn't be surprising to anyone.

 

If we could trade Pods for Lee and keep every other player the same we would be better this season I believe. Don't forget that Lee is a very good athlete and could steal 30 bags in a season if given the chance, plus the massive amounts of runs he produces that Pods won't.

 

Now arguing the trade in terms of how it freed up money is a different story because you never know who we would have ended up getting if we didn't make the trade, but at least that is an angle with some real solid evidence that it could have been a good trade.

 

HRs, btw, will win more ballgames than stolen bases for instance. If you get the pitching any style of offense can win ballgames. Carlos Lee produces more offense than Scott Podsednik and I think that is fairly obvious. If we had this pitching last season we almost certainly would have won the central and could have possibly won 100 games even with our inconsistent offense. Hell we won plenty of games earlier this season when our offense was consistently not very good.

 

I think people look at Pods as kind of the poster boy for Ozzieball so the natural tendency would be to overrate his impact. He has been a good leadoff hitter, but is not the big difference in our team from last season to this season.

[Rowand44]

If we could trade Pods for Lee and keep every other player the same we would be better this season I believe.

Not a chance my friend, not a chance.

[Heads22]

Pods is part of a totally different dynamic. He's helped Iguchi benefit as much as himself because of the number of fastballs rolling up toward Tadahito.

[Balta1701]

HRs, btw, will win more ballgames than stolen bases for instance.  If you get the pitching any style of offense can win ballgames.  Carlos Lee produces more offense than Scott Podsednik and I think that is fairly obvious.  If we had this pitching last season we almost certainly would have won the central and could have possibly won 100 games even with our inconsistent offense.  Hell we won plenty of games earlier this season when our offense was consistently not very good.

 

I think people look at Pods as kind of the poster boy for Ozzieball so the natural tendency would be to overrate his impact.    He has been a good leadoff hitter, but is not the big difference in our team from last season to this season.

See, now this is exactly why I did this post today.

 

Yes, we are scoring less runs per game on average (although I bet a part of that will change with Frank back and summer arriving). But we are also far, FAR more consistent in our scoring.

 

Instead of beating up on teams when we face poor pitching and being absolutely shut down by good pitching, we are able to keep the shutout and 1 run games to a minimum, and score at least 4 or 5 runs per game far more often. We are able to go up against good pitching and still push a few runs across the plate...and if our pitching keeps up we're going to win the game.

 

If we scored 5 runs every game and had a good pitching staff, we'd win a lot more games than if we scored 9 runs in half our games and 1 run in the other half.

 

One of these days...I want to take a moment and do the same sort of analysis with this year's Yankees. They remind me a lot of the Sox last year - they're capable of exploding for 13 runs in an inning twice against the Devil Rays, then the next 3 days they get beaten by being outscored or outpitched.

Edited June 24, 2005 by Balta1701

[GoodAsGould]

Pods is part of a totally different dynamic. He's helped Iguchi benefit as much as himself because of the number of fastballs rolling up toward Tadahito.

 

 

Idonno Iguchi has had to change his hitting aproach so much and than take some pitches that he might actually hit better without Pods in front of him.

 

What most people dont realize is until I guess June came around our offense stunk and the reason we have been winning games have been thanks to outstanding pitching. If our pitching was this good last year we would of been just of good as a team if not better...

[Rowand44]

Idonno Iguchi has had to change his hitting aproach so much and than take some pitches that he might actually hit better without Pods in front of him.

 

What most people dont realize is until I guess June came around our offense stunk and the reason we have been winning games have been thanks to outstanding pitching.  If our pitching was this good last year we would of been just of good as a team if not better...

I disagree with both counts. Our offense didn't stink we were around the middle of the league the whole year in runs scored and with the way the team got clutch hit after clutch hit the offense was absolutely fine. The pitching has been great no doubt but it just hasn't been the pitching, the defense and offense have been a part of this team as well, no doubt.

[Heads22]

Nobody is saying the pitching doesn't have a large part to do with this. I'm just saying that Pods fills a niche on the team that Carlos never could.

[Rowand44]

Nobody is saying the pitching doesn't have a large part to do with this. I'm just saying that Pods fills a niche on the team that Carlos never could.

Bingo. That's a pretty cool sig heads, you make that yourself?

[TheHammer]

Our offense was better last season than it was the first two months of this season. In June our offense has been excellent thanks mostly to Konerko and Dye and Frank hitting the cover off the ball. But for those first two months our offense was worse than last season regardless of the inconsistencies. We won because of pitching those two months, we had some clutch hitting too, but mostly the pitching is what we have relied on to win.

 

We had a poor starting staff last season when compared to what it is this season. Loaiza wasn't good, Garland wasn't half of what he is now, and the 5th spot was obviously a loss just about every time out.

 

The consistent offense is good but weren't winning games because of offense early this year. Also I would like to note that Carlos Lee was probably our most consistent hitter last season hitting over .300 every month except April when he hit like .265. Also why are we more consistent on offense this season? I think its because Ozzie is making us manufacture some runs more often so when we don't get the HRs we can still score and he has done it with the whole lineup, not just Pods. It has been something Ozzie has instilled with the whole club and we would be more willing to manufacture regardless of who is leading off.

 

Pods has literally given us 56 runs (from scoring and driving in, kind of an unorthadox way to look at it I know) and has 2 SHs. The runs he has literally plated is 5th on the team and 2 SHs is average. Really Pods has been kind of an average contributor to us scoring runs as it has turned out. He doesn't grab a lot of total bases so he isn't efficient in driving in runs even when they are out there to be driven in. Even if he hit .400 with RISP he wouldn't drive in a ton because singles just don't drive in runs in large amounts.

 

So why doesn't he score a ton of runs (He is on pace for like 90 which is solid but nothing great). Well he has a .363 OBP but effectively he has about a .325 OBP because he has been CS/picked off 9 times. So he isn't on for Everett, Konerko, Aaron, or Frank to drive in as often as some people think.

 

Then you might say well he has 36 steals, well those steals are great but look at the guy below him in steals, Figgins who has 23. Figgins has 13 fewer steals but he has 5 HRs, 6 triples, and 11 doubles. Podsednik has 10 doubles and no other extra base hits. These steals are making up for the fact that Podsednik hasn't produced crap for extra base hits ( I'm guessing he is last in the majors among starters who have say 200 ABs or so).

 

Pods has 77 total bases, thats pretty bad but the amazing thing is of the 5 guys in the American league with 77 total bases Pods has scored 16 more runs than the next highest. And obviously this is because of his base running ability. Not only steals, but just being fast enough to take extra bases that other players don't have the physical ability to take.

 

Pods has the potential to be such a dominant player. If he could start getting some extra base hits like he did in 2003 he would cross homeplate so much more often than he does. But until he reverts back to his 2003 form he can't compare to what Carlos Lee does for an offense. Even considering how his threat of stealing has helped Iguchi.

[qwerty]

Our offense was better last season than it was the first two months of this season.  In June our offense has been excellent thanks mostly to Konerko and Dye and Frank hitting the cover off the ball.  But for those first two months our offense was worse than last season regardless of the inconsistencies.  We won because of pitching those two months, we had some clutch hitting too, but mostly the pitching is what we have relied on to win.

 

We had a poor starting staff last season when compared to what it is this  season. Loaiza wasn't good, Garland wasn't half of what he is now, and the 5th spot was obviously a loss just about every time out.

 

The consistent offense is good but weren't winning games because of offense early this year.    Also I would like to note that Carlos Lee was probably our most consistent hitter last season hitting over .300 every month except April when he hit like .265.  Also why are we more consistent on offense this season?  I think its because Ozzie is making us manufacture some runs more often so when we don't get the HRs we can still score and he has done it with the whole lineup, not just Pods.  It has been something Ozzie has instilled with the whole club and we would be more willing to manufacture regardless of who is leading off.

 

Pods has literally given us 56 runs (from scoring and driving in, kind of an unorthadox way to look at it I know) and has 2 SHs.  The runs he has literally plated is 5th on the team and 2 SHs is average.  Really Pods has been kind of an average contributor to us scoring runs as it has turned out.  He doesn't grab a lot of total bases so he isn't efficient in driving in runs even when they are out there to be driven in.  Even if he hit .400 with RISP he wouldn't drive in a ton because singles just don't drive in runs in large amounts. 

 

So why doesn't he score a ton of runs (He is on pace for like 90 which is solid but nothing great).  Well he has a .363 OBP but effectively he has about a .325 OBP because he has been CS/picked off 9 times.  So he isn't on for Everett, Konerko, Aaron, or Frank to drive in as often as some people think.

 

Then you might say well he has 36 steals, well those steals are great but look at the guy below him in steals, Figgins who has 23.  Figgins has 13 fewer steals but he has 5 HRs, 6 triples, and 11 doubles.  Podsednik has 10 doubles and no other extra base hits.  These steals are making up for the fact that Podsednik hasn't produced crap for extra base hits ( I'm guessing he is last in the majors among starters who have say 200 ABs or so).

 

Pods has 77 total bases, thats pretty bad but the amazing thing is of the 5 guys in the American league with 77 total bases Pods has scored 16 more runs than the next highest.  And obviously this is because of his base running ability.  Not only steals, but just being fast enough to take extra bases that other players don't have the physical ability to take.

 

Pods has the potential to be such a dominant player.  If he could start getting some extra base hits like he did in 2003 he would cross homeplate so much more often than he does.  But until he reverts back to his 2003 form he can't compare to what Carlos Lee does for an offense.  Even considering how his threat of stealing has helped Iguchi.

 

Been caught stealing 9 times and picked off at least seven if not eight times this season. I mean he was picked off twice in one damn game, that is ridiculous.

[southsider2k5]

Been caught stealing 9 times and picked off at least seven if not eight times this season. I mean he was picked off twice in one damn game, that is ridiculous.

 

You are duping some of your stats there. The plays where Pods gets picked off and tries to go to second count as CSs. I remember specifically the game you are referring to and both of those pick offs against Chen counted as CSs, because he tried to go to 2nd base.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(Jimenez4MVP @ Jun 23, 2005 -> 05:03 PM)

maybe.. you dont know what keeping Lee and him doing what hes doing now would do for our team.. you can what if it all you want

 

I stick by what I said, ide rather have Lee and think Milwaukee won that deal.. Especially now how its painfully obvious we did NOT get fair value for Lee

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I would rather be 49-22 after 71 games than 33-39 after 72 games. Pods has contributed a lot to that win total. Lee was here and he always made bone head mistakes that seemed to lead to loses. Lee may be one of the worst baserunners I have ever seen. I don't care what numbers he is putting up, the White Sox won that deal.

[Queen Prawn]

A sophomore slump is an excuse for young guys... he was what 28 last year.... He is actually a litle older than Clee I think....

 

CLee just turned 29 (on 6/18 I believe).

[TheHammer]

I would rather be 49-22 after 71 games than 33-39 after 72 games. Pods has contributed a lot to that win total.

 

I would argue that our 5 starters, Cotts, Politte, Hermy, Konerko, Everett, Rowand, Iguchi, AJ, and Dye have all been more important to this teams success than Podsednik. I think someone pointed out that we are like 7-3 when he doesn't play. No single position player is really that important to this team this season. Especially one with a weak bat and defense

[southsider2k5]

I would argue that our 5 starters, Cotts, Politte, Hermy, Konerko, Everett, Rowand, Iguchi, AJ, and Dye have all been more important to this teams success than Podsednik.  I think someone pointed out that we are like 7-3 when he doesn't play.  No single position player is really that important to this team this season.  Especially one with a weak bat and defense

 

And almost half of the guys you listed there were aquired as a direct result of the money freed up from the Carlos Lee trade.