The Gigantic all encompassing TRADE THREAD

[Milkman delivers]

Until I see a convincing run from Schmidt (2 starts is NOT a convincing run), I'd rather the Sox take a run at Burnett. Just because he only has this year left on his contract doesn't mean he won't sign a longer term deal here (see: Freddy Garcia).

 

Freddy Garcia is basically Ozzie Guillen's nephew. That is the main reason he signed for less money.

 

And I'll be convinced about Burnett's health when he throws a few more 200+ IP seasons.

[southsideirish71]

2 starts is really the start of a convincing run.  30 is not that old anyway, he'd be a great pickup.  so would Burnett, even if he wouldn't sign for a few more years here.  he'd give our playoff rotation a serious boost (Buehrle, Garland, Garcia, Burnett or Schmidt?  Contreras and El Duque coming out of the pen.  that'd be sick).  I hope KW goes out and gets either one of them.

 

 

If we get either we will have 4 possible shut down guys in the playoffs.

 

We need a 4 man rotation for the playoffs. And pitching the Count or El Duque is not really an option. I could care less what his "career" numbers say, El Duque is hitting the old 84 mark in his velocity and would be a good loss possibility in the playoffs.

 

Either Burnett or Schmidt sound great to me. Get one of them Kenny. I dont really care which.

We get that and maybe a lefty who can get lefties out and I would feel pretty good about our chances.

[daa84]

Sorry for asking this dumb question, but why do we need Schmidt or Burnett again?

this is actually a good question. the will probably be able to win teh division with el duq/mccarthy running the #5 slot in the rotation. the same applies if they were to trade for ted lilly, or someone like that. the only reason to trade for burnett or schmidt is to have a guy who can start in the playoffs. KW always is saying how he wants a team built to go deep in teh playoffs, and studs in the rotation will allow that. if you count this team as a playoff team right now, which is not unrealistic, then they need to make a move for advancing to the LCS and WS. Schmidt is the one player who can have the biggest postseason impact. the sox are really in a damn good position. they can trade for the postseason, instead of having to acquire maybe a 3b upgrade to worry about winning in a 162 game schedule

[southsideirish71]

Sorry for asking this dumb question, but why do we need Schmidt or Burnett again?

 

 

Do you want to throw this years El Duque or Conteras out in game 4 with the pressure on.

 

El Duque is hitting 84-85 and Conteras is a mixed bag. He may throw a great game, then again he may s*** himself silly. Its too much of a risk.

[Wedge]

Do you want to throw this years El Duque or Conteras out in game 4 with the pressure on. 

 

El Duque is hitting 84-85 and Conteras is a mixed bag.  He may throw a great game, then again he may s*** himself silly.  Its too much of a risk.

 

I'm going to make an assumption here: the Sox will win the division and make the playoffs. This is a valid assumption because no team has had a 10 game lead on its league/division prior to the all-star break or July and not won its respective league/division. For lots and lots of years, lots and lots of baseball has been played and for that to not have occurred yet is remarkable and suggests it is highly unlikely to occur in the future. Yes I know Minnesota and Cleveland and Detroit are teams that can all make a run, but barring two major injuries (i.e. a starting pitcher and an everyday player going down for the rest of the season), but the Sox have done well against them the entire season thus far. I digress, this is not what I am arguing about.

 

Hopefully I'm not making a rush to a conclusion here, but you're telling me that we should get Schmidt if it cost us some mixture of McCarthy, Anderson, Marte, and Sweeney (definitely 2 out of those 4 and maybe 3 out of those 4). Because we have already assumed the play-offs, we will not be needing Schmidt to reach this point. Rather, you're stating that essentially we only need him for one game: game 3 or game 4. The question you need to ask yourself is this: "does Jason Schmidt give this team a significantly better shot to win a game 3 or game 4 in the playoffs (either by pitching it himself or moving down Garcia/Garland in the rotation to that game) to the point where it is worth it to concede several prospects that many foresee helping the White Sox to future division championships?" Schmidt's health thus far this season, coupled with his fairly weak vs. AL stats make me question if he will be able to upgrade our chances this season to a point where it is worth giving up the crown jewel prospect of the Sox, a good reliever, and maybe two good OF prospects.

[sircaffey]

Sorry for asking this dumb question, but why do we need Schmidt or Burnett again?

 

A move for AJ or Schmidt is not a move to win the division. We can win the division with our current team. A move for one them is a move to win the World Series, and with one of them aboard, we have a great chance at winning it. But I guess we don't need one.

[GreatScott82]

Sorry if this question arose earlier on this thread, but why on earth would Flordia consider trading one of there top starting pitchers (Burnett)? The Marlins are in the weak NL where every team is virtually alive for that wild-card spot.

 

As far as Schmidt goes- his velocity drop worries me too much, this is too much of a gamble for KW to take on. KW stated himself other than adding an extra arm in the bulpen- he won't make a move unless he feels that it would help this team win the World Series. So in other words- if KW makes a splash- it will be a HUGE one. So expect a big name if KW makes a trade soon. Possibly even a Barry Zito or maybe even a Roger Clemens or Roy Oswalt if Houston falls out of contention. Who knows what to expect from KW- he has been the mid-summer Santa Clause for us Sox fans the last few years.

C'Mon KW give us a BIG Christmas present to put us over the top!!

I don't know about you guys but I won't be satisfied by just making the playoffs. I want the whole enchalata!

[southsideirish71]

I'm going to make an assumption here: the Sox will win the division and make the playoffs.  This is a valid assumption because no team has had a 10 game lead on its league/division prior to the all-star break or July and not won its respective league/division.  For lots and lots of years, lots and lots of baseball has been played and for that to not have occurred yet is remarkable and suggests it is highly unlikely to occur in the future.  Yes I know Minnesota and Cleveland and Detroit are teams that can all make a run, but barring two major injuries (i.e. a starting pitcher and an everyday player going down for the rest of the season), but the Sox have done well against them the entire season thus far.  I digress, this is not what I am arguing about.

 

Hopefully I'm not making a rush to a conclusion here, but you're telling me that we should get Schmidt if it cost us some mixture of McCarthy, Anderson, Marte, and Sweeney (definitely 2 out of those 4 and maybe 3 out of those 4).  Because we have already assumed the play-offs, we will not be needing Schmidt to reach this point.  Rather, you're stating that essentially we only need him for one game: game 3 or game 4.  The question you need to ask yourself is this: "does Jason Schmidt give this team a significantly better shot to win a game 3 or game 4 in the playoffs (either by pitching it himself or moving down Garcia/Garland in the rotation to that game) to the point where it is worth it to concede several prospects that many foresee helping the White Sox to future division championships?"  Schmidt's health thus far this season, coupled with his fairly weak vs. AL stats make me question if he will be able to upgrade our chances this season to a point where it is worth giving up the crown jewel prospect of the Sox, a good reliever, and maybe two good OF prospects.

 

 

I still think the road to the WS will go through Fenway. We will have the home field advantage. But game 3.4.5 would be at Fenway.

 

The thought of having Conteras or El Duque pitch in Fenway scares the hell out of me. Schmidt or AJ would give us a better chance to win in those games. And in the playoffs there are no throwaway games. All of them count. The first one to 4 wins moves on.

[sircaffey]

Do we not trust our scouting? All this drop in velocity talk w/ some people saying it has been up in his past 2 starts. I trust our scouts to make the correct evaluation.

[southsideirish71]

Do we not trust our scouting?  All this drop in velocity talk w/ some people saying it has been up in his past 2 starts.  I trust our scouts to make the correct evaluation.

 

This is from Rotoworld.

 

 

Back looking like an ace, Jason Schmidt fanned 10 in eight-plus innings tonight in a 4-0 win over the Diamondbacks.

Schmidt didn't sit there all night, but he reached 94 and 95 mph with his fastball at times in a pretty dominant performance. If you held on to him, it looks like you'll be well rewarded. He'll match up with Arizona's Brad Halsey again in his next start.

[Guest JimH]

Do we not trust our scouting?  All this drop in velocity talk w/ some people saying it has been up in his past 2 starts.  I trust our scouts to make the correct evaluation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, absolutely, we have to trust our scouting. And medical people too.

 

Pitchers are an interesting group, they can bounce back from small injuries or they can go south very quickly. Any time you pay a lot for a pitcher, whether it's salary or players given up, it's always a big risk.

 

We have to trust the scouts and other pertinent people to make sure it's the lowest risk.

[nitetrain8601]

I still think the road to the WS will go through Fenway.  We will have the home field advantage.  But game 3.4.5 would be at Fenway. 

 

The thought of having Conteras or El Duque pitch in Fenway scares the hell out of me. Schmidt or AJ would give us a better chance to win in those games.  And in the playoffs there are no throwaway games.  All of them count.  The first one to 4 wins moves on.

 

With the way the playoff is scheduled, you won't have to depend on them to start. It would go Buehrle, Garcia, Garland then Buehrle again. The only time El Duque or Contreras were to start is if we're about to win the series and we are up 3-1 at one point.

[Milkman delivers]

The question you need to ask yourself is this: "does Jason Schmidt give this team a significantly better shot to win a game 3 or game 4 in the playoffs (either by pitching it himself or moving down Garcia/Garland in the rotation to that game) to the point where it is worth it to concede several prospects that many foresee helping the White Sox to future division championships?"

 

Yes.

 

And to GreatScott, Schmidt would be a Huge addition.

[southsideirish71]

With the way the playoff is scheduled, you won't have to depend on them to start. It would go Buehrle, Garcia, Garland then Buehrle again. The only time El Duque or Contreras were to start is if we're about to win the series and we are up 3-1 at one point.

 

 

Teams dont go with a 3 man rotation outside of the first round that much. We will need 4 starters.

[ZoomSlowik]

The thing is Contreras/El Duque probably wouldn't pitch game 4. Think about how they usually schedule the playoffs. There will probably be at least one day off between games one and two, and another before they switch cities because they want to get as many games in a prime television spot as possible. That would mean that Buehrle (or possibly Garcia Garland, whoever is in the best position to pitch game one) would be able to pitch on 4 days rest, and the same for whoever starts game 2 for the 5th game. The 4th starter is usually only a factor when you get to the longer series, and they would more likely pitch game 1 or 2 in the ALCS, maybe game 3 depending on when your guys need rest. Also, when you consider that none of the other AL playoff teams have a credible 4th starter, it really isn't that important to be able to send out 4 above average starters. If we were going to make a trade, I'd rather see us acquire another power righty for the back end of the pen so we don't have to see Shingo or Vizcaino, since you know Politte, Hermanson, Marte, and Cotts will get worked almost exclusively in close games.

[sircaffey]

Yes, absolutely, we have to trust our scouting.  And medical people too.

 

Pitchers are an interesting group, they can bounce back from small injuries or they can go south very quickly.  Any time you pay a lot for a pitcher, whether it's salary or players given up, it's always a big risk.

 

We have to trust the scouts and other pertinent people to make sure it's the lowest risk.

 

Exactly...That's why if we do acquire Schmidt, I trust that he is back to form or very close to it, and will not worry much about his drop in velocity in his first 8-9 starts of the season.

[beck72]

Sorry for asking this dumb question, but why do we need Schmidt or Burnett again?

 

Do I think the Sox could get to the World series and win it all the way MB, Jon, Freddy and either Jose or El Duque throwing in game 4 based on how they're throwing right now? Probably yes, as they are pitching their asses off. Do I think they'll pitch like this all year long, and most importantly, in October? Odds are against it. I'd expect some drop off, from at least one of our top three guys. If two of the sox big three dropped down to their career avgs or below, the sox would be completely screwed against the big hitting teams like LAA and Boston.

 

Getting a healthy, proven big game ace for the playoffs would be invaluable. And would give the sox that much more of an edge for the playoffs.

 

As far as the names mentioned, I like Schmidt and Zito. I don't know who else could/ might be available

[Cubs Suck23]

A report here in SF on the flagship station is that Ned Colletti will be in Detroit the next few days to watch the Whitesox play..

Dont know if that means Schmidt is coming to the Sox

[VAfan]

Let's be realistic here. I'm all for making a trade to win the World Series. But is AJ Burnett or Jason Schmidt going to be the guy?

 

In a 5-game opening series we already have Buehrle, Garcia and Garland 1-3. If we are pressed into game 4, we then have either Contreras or El Duque. Contreras's "stuff" is as good as any pitcher we are talking about trading for, but he seems to be a head case, is easy to steal on, and can be prone to give up the long ball. El Duque, on the other hand, seems to rely entirely on guile, but if completely healthy would likely be a lot better than his opponent. If the first 4 games are split, then we have Buehrle again for game 5, unless we've added Roger Clemens to our team.

 

So why mortgage the future for 1 ALDS start?

 

The other cost of Burnett is that he's a free agent looking for a big contract. (Another reason not to give up the farm for a guy we could have for "free" next year.) But we are already on the hook for millions for Buehrle, Garcia, and Contreras next year, plus $4 million for El Duque and a big raise for Jon Garland. Given the Sox are a zero-sum outfit, if we spend a lot more for a new starter, someone else is going to have to go. Frank Thomas? Paul Konerko? AJ Pierzynski?

 

Schmidt poses the same dilemma with his $10 million option.

 

Now if another team would take Contreras's $8 million salary for next year off our hands, then we might be able to slot a Burnett or Schmidt into that hole. But who would do that? We aren't going to spend $40-50 million of a $70 million payroll on 5 starting pitchers, are we?

 

I'm not sure the answer to this, but unless management is planning on increasing the payroll next year by at least $10 million (which is what it will cost for this new starting pitcher everyone is drooling over), this all strikes me as a fantasy exercise. I certainly don't want to surrender our top prospects on a 3-month rental. (Though Roger Clemens has tempted me.) The only reason the Garcia trade has worked for us (we could sure use Mike Morse at SS instead of Uribe, couldn't we?) is we signed Garcia for 3 years.

 

To keep the Sox winning AL Central divisions and making the postseason we need to be smart. Brandon McCarthy is the only pitcher in our system who could possibly hold down the #5 hole for a bargain price. I would think hard before trading him.

 

In the outfield, we're stuck with Jermaine Dye through 2006, but after that we need a home grown guy to take his place. SS is another position we could use talent from within.

 

The point is that all of you drooling over the latest guy on the trade block need to see the bigger picture and evaluate whether it will force us to blow up the team next year. I suppose if I could be guaranteed a WS victory, maybe I could die and be happy and not care. But few trade acquisitions are going to guarantee that.

 

You know, what really hamstrings us here is the Contreras trade and to a lesser extent the El Duque signing. Because we're on the hook for $12 million for the two of them this year and next, we really can't make a move to improve our starters without trying to unload one or both of them. But who would take either of them?

 

Face it, we may be stuck trying to make the best with our Cuban starters, but I don't see that as all bad. Contreras really can have great outings. And El Duque, if he can be used sparingly until October, might turn in a gem or two.

 

I guess, all in all, I'm on the fence.

[Rowand44]

A report here in SF on the flagship station is that Ned Colletti will be in Detroit the next few days to watch the Whitesox play..

Dont know if that means Schmidt is coming to the Sox

Well I don't think the sox are going to trade any major league talent so if the Giants scouts are coming out it wouldn't surprise me if they're coming out for Weds.....

[witesoxfan]

I would just be so afraid of what Busty Baker did to his arm.

 

You mean Felipe Alou.

 

Dusty left after the 2002 season Schmidt then put up sick numbers(17-5, 2.34 ERA, 0.95 WHIP, .200 BAA, K/9 of 9, K/BB of >4 in 03; 18-7, 3.20 ERA, 1.08 WHIP, .202 BAA, K/9 of 10, K/BB of >3 in 04) with Alou at the helm and Dusty wearing that cheesy ass blue.

 

My only fear about Schmidt is that he reminds me a lot of Freddy Garcia. Not saying Freddy Garcia is bad, because he's not...but Schmidt is pitching in like the 3rd best pitcher's park in the majors, similar to Garcia in Safeco, and he's going to Coors Field east(and, not that it is the exact same, but it is somewhat comparable - his ERA at Coors over his career is 5.12...given, that is including his s*** days in Pittsburgh, but the point remains).

 

Is that worth BMac and one of our OF prospects?

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(VAfan @ Jun 28, 2005 -> 08:09 PM)

Let's be realistic here.  I'm all for making a trade to win the World Series.  But is AJ Burnett or Jason Schmidt going to be the guy?

 

In a 5-game opening series we already have Buehrle, Garcia and Garland 1-3.  If we are pressed into game 4, we then have either Contreras or El Duque.  Contreras's "stuff" is as good as any pitcher we are talking about trading for, but he seems to be a head case, is easy to steal on, and can be prone to give up the long ball.  El Duque, on the other hand, seems to rely entirely on guile, but if completely healthy would likely be a lot better than his opponent.  If the first 4 games are split, then we have Buehrle again for game 5, unless we've added Roger Clemens to our team. 

 

So why mortgage the future for 1 ALDS start?

 

The other cost of Burnett is that he's a free agent looking for a big contract.  (Another reason not to give up the farm for a guy we could have for "free" next year.)  But we are already on the hook for millions for Buehrle, Garcia, and Contreras next year, plus $4 million for El Duque and a big raise for Jon Garland.  Given the Sox are a zero-sum outfit, if we spend a lot more for a new starter, someone else is going to have to go.  Frank Thomas?  Paul Konerko?  AJ Pierzynski? 

 

Schmidt poses the same dilemma with his $10 million option. 

 

Now if another team would take Contreras's $8 million salary for next year off our hands, then we might be able to slot a Burnett or Schmidt into that hole.  But who would do that?  We aren't going to spend $40-50 million of a $70 million payroll on 5 starting pitchers, are we? 

 

I'm not sure the answer to this, but unless management is planning on increasing the payroll next year by at least $10 million (which is what it will cost for this new starting pitcher everyone is drooling over), this all strikes me as a fantasy exercise.  I certainly don't want to surrender our top prospects on a 3-month rental.  (Though Roger Clemens has tempted me.)  The only reason the Garcia trade has worked for us (we could sure use Mike Morse at SS instead of Uribe, couldn't we?) is we signed Garcia for 3 years. 

 

To keep the Sox winning AL Central divisions and making the postseason we need to be smart.  Brandon McCarthy is the only pitcher in our system who could possibly hold down the #5 hole for a bargain price.  I would think hard before trading him. 

 

In the outfield, we're stuck with Jermaine Dye through 2006, but after that we need a home grown guy to take his place.  SS is another position we could use talent from within. 

 

The point is that all of you drooling over the latest guy on the trade block need to see the bigger picture and evaluate whether it will force us to blow up the team next year.  I suppose if I could be guaranteed a WS victory, maybe I could die and be happy and not care.  But few trade acquisitions are going to guarantee that. 

 

You know, what really hamstrings us here is the Contreras trade and to a lesser extent the El Duque signing.  Because we're on the hook for $12 million for the two of them this year and next, we really can't make a move to improve our starters without trying to unload one or both of them.  But who would take either of them? 

 

Face it, we may be stuck trying to make the best with our Cuban starters, but I don't see that as all bad.  Contreras really can have great outings.  And El Duque, if he can be used sparingly until October, might turn in a gem or two. 

 

I guess, all in all, I'm on the fence.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There is no reason why they would not be willing to increase the payroll if we go to the playoffs. Each round we get through means more money for them. Plus the year after a great year is usually when you see the most money coming in. There should be no reason not to increase the payroll by at least 10 million if they make it far into the playoffs. Another big time starter such as Jason Schmidt to go along with Mark Buehrle and Freddy Garcia improves our chances of going further than just the 1st round. Money should really not be brought into this equation.

[Kyyle23]

There is no such thing as having enough pitching in the World Series. Too many legitimate aces on your staff is not a problem. Even if this mortgages the future, this is a chance you have to take. The Sox arent in the playoffs yet, lets not talk about how the Sox will do 1-3. Lets instead talk about mowing down the competition en route to the playoffs. I think adding Jason Schmidt to the rotation will certainly help stave off a suddenly comptetive AL Central, and if the rotation comes into question if(when) the Sox get into the playoffs, worry about it then.

[Cubs Suck23]

Is their any reports back in Chicago about Schmidt coming to the Sox

[nitetrain8601]

Let's be realistic here.  I'm all for making a trade to win the World Series.  But is AJ Burnett or Jason Schmidt going to be the guy?

 

In a 5-game opening series we already have Buehrle, Garcia and Garland 1-3.  If we are pressed into game 4, we then have either Contreras or El Duque.  Contreras's "stuff" is as good as any pitcher we are talking about trading for, but he seems to be a head case, is easy to steal on, and can be prone to give up the long ball.  El Duque, on the other hand, seems to rely entirely on guile, but if completely healthy would likely be a lot better than his opponent.  If the first 4 games are split, then we have Buehrle again for game 5, unless we've added Roger Clemens to our team. 

 

So why mortgage the future for 1 ALDS start?

 

The other cost of Burnett is that he's a free agent looking for a big contract.  (Another reason not to give up the farm for a guy we could have for "free" next year.)  But we are already on the hook for millions for Buehrle, Garcia, and Contreras next year, plus $4 million for El Duque and a big raise for Jon Garland.  Given the Sox are a zero-sum outfit, if we spend a lot more for a new starter, someone else is going to have to go.  Frank Thomas?  Paul Konerko?  AJ Pierzynski? 

 

Schmidt poses the same dilemma with his $10 million option. 

 

Now if another team would take Contreras's $8 million salary for next year off our hands, then we might be able to slot a Burnett or Schmidt into that hole.  But who would do that?  We aren't going to spend $40-50 million of a $70 million payroll on 5 starting pitchers, are we? 

 

I'm not sure the answer to this, but unless management is planning on increasing the payroll next year by at least $10 million (which is what it will cost for this new starting pitcher everyone is drooling over), this all strikes me as a fantasy exercise.  I certainly don't want to surrender our top prospects on a 3-month rental.  (Though Roger Clemens has tempted me.)  The only reason the Garcia trade has worked for us (we could sure use Mike Morse at SS instead of Uribe, couldn't we?) is we signed Garcia for 3 years. 

 

To keep the Sox winning AL Central divisions and making the postseason we need to be smart.  Brandon McCarthy is the only pitcher in our system who could possibly hold down the #5 hole for a bargain price.  I would think hard before trading him. 

 

In the outfield, we're stuck with Jermaine Dye through 2006, but after that we need a home grown guy to take his place.  SS is another position we could use talent from within. 

 

The point is that all of you drooling over the latest guy on the trade block need to see the bigger picture and evaluate whether it will force us to blow up the team next year.  I suppose if I could be guaranteed a WS victory, maybe I could die and be happy and not care.  But few trade acquisitions are going to guarantee that. 

 

You know, what really hamstrings us here is the Contreras trade and to a lesser extent the El Duque signing.  Because we're on the hook for $12 million for the two of them this year and next, we really can't make a move to improve our starters without trying to unload one or both of them.  But who would take either of them? 

 

Face it, we may be stuck trying to make the best with our Cuban starters, but I don't see that as all bad.  Contreras really can have great outings.  And El Duque, if he can be used sparingly until October, might turn in a gem or two. 

 

I guess, all in all, I'm on the fence.

 

Exact point I've been trying to make all day. You're basically mortgaging a future for 2 starts max in the playoffs. Beck72, you don't consider Buehrle an ace?? I certainly do. El Duque is just needed for 2 starts against the Twins really and Contreras just needs to finish the season.

 

I'm not willing to spend tons of money and future for us to have to bench one of our aces for the most part in the playoffs. Look at Houston. They made a damn good run with Rocket and Oswalt and Backe who is far from an ace. St. Louis had a worse off pitching staff than that.

 

Burnett as much as I'd love to have him and Schmidt just aren't needed or even close to being a priority. I'd say bullpen(lights out closer because I think Hermy is coming back to earth) and hitting(3rd base in particular) are much more needed than another ace.