The Gigantic all encompassing TRADE THREAD

[Milkman delivers]

And, Vizquel is worse defensively than Uribe -- IMO.

 

IAFIWABO (In any f***in' idiot with a brain's opinion)

[WHarris1]

And, Vizquel is worse defensively than Uribe -- IMO.

Agree big time.

You can't really upgade our D at short.

[qwerty]

Umm, I think the White Sox are paying. I wish I was paying it cause it would make me an owner. Reinsdorf said that money is not an issue. So start adding. Why the hell do you care so much about payroll? Your not paying for it? Your not the White Sox accountant. What the f*** do you care?

 

Hm, why do i care about the payroll? Well if we start trading for guys that are in their late thirties with 3 years on their contract we have a problem. Omar vizquel is not putting this team, the chicago white sox, over the top. The sox would not think of trading for vizquel is 345 and two thirds of a years because right when he was offered the third year by the giants we waived good bye to him. The third year was the deal breaker. Do you think vizquel would come in and lead-off or bat third? He would end up at the bottom of the line-up just like uribe. Uribe is just as good as vizquel is defensively if not better. It is not worth the prospects it takes to get him along with the two years 6+ million left on his contract.

 

The reason i asked if your gonna pay for his salary is because the white sox won't be.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Jun 29, 2005 -> 03:56 AM)

We don't know that Schmidt is available. We're just speculating. About a month ago Chavez was available and we were speculating the same way. Zito is the same way. In fact, his GM said that he isn't going anywhere. And we're assuming that Burnett is available, despite the fact the Florida is only 6 out in their division and 3.5 out of the wildcard. The difference in this situation is that the Giants aren't a cash-strapped small market team that can't afford to keep anyone. They're also probably still under some crazy impression that they can compete once Bonds get back. I'm also not sure why you expect them to throw in Vizquel, considering that he is hitting close to .300 and is signed for two more seasons, or that we would want him after signing Uribe. We don't really know who is available the vast majority of the time. At this time every year we sit here arguing about whatever big name players we can acquire that we never really even come close to getting, and many of those guys never get dealt anyways. In the end, it's highly unlikely that these big name potential impact players will get dealt, which is why I'm looking for and expecting more minor changes. You don't see the division leaders making that many moves that drastically alter the makeup of their team, it's always the teams trying to make up ground like the Astros last year. I definitely see this being the case with us, especially in regards to a starting pitcher, since we have 5 starting pitchers under contract through the end of next season, and our top prospect is also a starter.

 

Also, there's not telling whether or not Jenks (or Baj for that matter) will come up to the big club and produce, or if Gload will be able to be a solid role player.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I didn't and I wasn't looking to make a ton of changes. I just wanted Schmidt and a 3rd baseman that makes contact. Those are the changes you wanted to make. From what the insiders say Schmidt is available and the Giants want to get younger. Burnett is available because he is a FA next year and will be demanding crazy money.

 

I thought we were making a push for the World Series? If we are then I am not counting on the Count and El Duque. I am also not going to count on Garland to produce like this for the whole year. If he does great, but I don't want it to be something I am banking on in order to move on.

 

There is no telling wether Jenks, Baj, or Gload will produce when they get here. However, there is also no telling another major league reliever, backup ss, or lefthanded 1B will either when they come to the Sox.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(qwerty @ Jun 29, 2005 -> 04:01 AM)

Hm, why do i care about the payroll? Well if we start trading for guys that are in their late thirties with 3 years on their contract we have a problem. Omar vizquel is not putting this team, the chicago white sox, over the top. The sox would not think of trading for vizquel is 345 and two thirds of a years because right when he was offered the third year by the giants we waived good bye to him. The third year was the deal breaker. Do you think vizquel would come in and lead-off or bat third? He would end up at the bottom of the line-up just like uribe. Uribe is just as good as vizquel is defensively if not better. It is not worth the prospects it takes to get him along with the two years 6+ million left on his contract.

 

The reason i asked if your gonna pay for his salary is because the white sox won't be.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Where the hell did I say he was putting our team over the top? Where did I say he would ever bat leadoff? I think he will be batting 8th or 9thI think he is a contact hitter who can get on base and maybe steal one if you need him to. Do I think he is better than Uribe defensively? No! And I never said he was. Nor did I say he would put us over the top. And if we keep winning and fans keep coming to the park we don't have a problem. If Vizquel can help the team win then I am all for it. I would also doubt it would cost a whole hell of a lot to get him.

[qwerty]

Where the hell did I say he was putting our team over the top?Where did I say he would ever bat leadoff? I think he will be batting 8th or 9thI think he is a contact hitter who can get on base and maybe steal one if you need him to. Do I think he is better than Uribe defensively? No! And I never said he was. Nor did I say he would put us over the top. And if we keep winning and fans keep coming to the park we don't have a problem. If Vizquel can help the team win then I am all for it. I would also doubt it would cost a whole hell of a lot to get him.

 

Why get him? For s***s and giggles i suppose?

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(qwerty @ Jun 29, 2005 -> 04:09 AM)

Why get him? For s***s and giggles i suppose?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did you even read the post I was replying to? It was a suggestion to zoom stating that we needed a backup SS. So I proposed we have SF throw in Vizquel as well which would allow Uribe to move to third and also be our backup SS. That is all.

[Jabroni]

EDIT:  One more thing -- why is everyone talking about adding another starting pitcher?  Am I watching the wrong games?  Our offense isn't really good.  I know, I know, the chemistry thing, but how about we look at Aubrey Huff a little more?  I know you lose defense, but it's more than made up for with his offense.  Another bullpen arm would be my second priority, the deeper the bullpen, the better I like our chances.

 

And Kalapse is right about Oakland.  Unless Beane gets an overwhelmingly good deal, he isn't trading Chavez/Zito.  They're about to win again tonight, making them what -- four, five games under .500?  Right or wrong, Beane thinks his team has a shot at the playoffs.  And speaking of Oakland, I don't want to see anyone b**** out Beane for the Mulder deal.  Haren is pitching better than Mulder, at what, 1/20th the price?  300K vs. $7 million, isn't it?  Plus Barton, and Calero (who's been bad in 16 IP, but injured for a while too).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would rather trade for a stud starting pitcher and just grab a cheap guy like Randa for average prospects.

Edited June 29, 2005 by Jabroni

[CWSGuy406]

I would rather trade for a stud starting pitcher and just grab a cheap guy like Randa for average prospects.

 

Who says Randa would come so cheap? He's having a career year, I believe an OPS right around .850, with something like a .360 OBP. I can't say he'd cost a fortune, but he's on a one year deal (with an option? no?) and a cheap contract -- I don't think he'd be so dirt cheap...

[ZoomSlowik]

I didn't and I wasn't looking to make a ton of changes. I just wanted Schmidt and a 3rd baseman that makes contact. Those are the changes you wanted to make. From what the insiders say Schmidt is available and the Giants want to get younger. Burnett is available because he is a FA next year and will be demanding crazy money.

 

I thought we were making a push for the World Series? If we are then I am not counting on the Count and El Duque. I am also not going to count on Garland to produce like this for the whole year. If he does great, but I don't want it to be something I am banking on in order to move on.

 

There is no telling wether Jenks, Baj, or Gload will produce when they get here. However, there is also no telling another major league reliever, backup ss, or lefthanded 1B will either when they come to the Sox.

 

There is no telling whether Schmidt, or Burnett, or Zito, or Babe Ruth if we dug him up would get us to the series, especially since one of them had an ERA of 4.85 before today, Zito was around 4.4, and Burnett only has 5 wins. You missed the whole point my rumor statements. We DON"T know what is going to happen. As I said, about a month ago Chavez and Zito were hot rumor subjects, now they are probably not available. The same thing is the case with Schmidt. It's just a dumbass writer, like we rip on all the time, saying that he might be traded. That's far from solid evidence. And Burnett's contract status has nothing to do with whether or not he is traded this season while Florida is in contention. They had no problem letting I-Rod, Benitez, or Urbina walk at the end of a season, and they weren't exactly locks to win the division at the deadline.

 

We're not exactly counting on Contreras or Hernandez to carry our team in the playoffs either. One of them probably won't start, the other one would make 3 starts TOPS, and that's assuming we make it to the series and play the max amount of games in each of them. As for Garland, he's shown no signs of slowing down, so why should we assume he should? Did the Marlins try to add another starter because they weren't sure that Beckett and Pavano would be able to hold up in the playoffs? Hell no! All you're doing by adding a starter is making one of our three solid starters that have gotten us to this point much less valuable to your team. We're simply not going to find a guy out there who is a significant upgrade over Garland unless by some miracle Clemens demands to be traded and decides that he is going to come to the Sox.

 

Edit- also, Vizquel is an absolute waste of assets if you are going to put him on the bench, and in the trade another poster proposed Uribe was part of the deal. Acquiring a $6 mil a year old man with two years left to use as a backup SS is simply asanine.

Edited June 29, 2005 by ZoomSlowik

[qwerty]

Did you even read the post I was replying to? It was a suggestion to zoom stating that we needed a backup SS. So I proposed we have SF throw in Vizquel as well which would allow Uribe to move to third and also be our backup SS. That is all.

 

So we trade for a 39 year old guy, with two years left on his contract to be our back up? Even though he would not excep tthat role? Makes sense to me.

[Capn12]

We need to overpay for a potential backup SS?

Ozuna is servicable when Uribe needs a day off. I'll keep those 2 at SS thanks.

[qwerty]

Who says Randa would come so cheap?  He's having a career year, I believe an OPS right around .850, with something like a .360 OBP.  I can't say he'd cost a fortune, but he's on a one year deal (with an option?  no?) and a cheap contract -- I don't think he'd be so dirt cheap...

 

No option and i think it would cost two middle level prosects considering they really don't have to move him.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Jun 29, 2005 -> 04:14 AM)

There is no telling whether Schmidt, or Burnett, or Zito, or Babe Ruth if we dug him up would get us to the series, especially since one of them had an ERA of 4.85 before today, Zito was around 4.4, and Burnett only has 5 wins. You missed the whole point my rumor statements. We DON"T know what is going to happen. As I said, about a month ago Chavez and Zito were hot rumor subjects, now they are probably not available. The same thing is the case with Schmidt. It's just a dumbass writer, like we rip on all the time, saying that he might be traded. That's far from solid evidence. And Burnett's contract status has nothing to do with whether or not he is traded this season while Florida is in contention. They had no problem letting I-Rod, Benitez, or Urbina walk at the end of a season, and they weren't exactly locks to win the division at the deadline.

 

We're not exactly counting on Contreras or Hernandez to carry our team in the playoffs either. One of them probably won't start, the other one would make 3 starts TOPS, and that's assuming we make it to the series and play the max amount of games in each of them. As for Garland, he's shown no signs of slowing down, so why should we assume he should? Did the Marlins try to add another starter because they weren't sure that Beckett and Pavano would be able to hold up in the playoffs? Hell no! All you're doing by adding a starter is making one of our three solid starters that have gotten us to this point much less valuable to your team. We're simply not going to find a guy out there who is a significant upgrade over Garland unless by some miracle Clemens demands to be traded and decides that he is going to come to the Sox.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am assuming Garland will because I have seen him pitch the last few years besides this one. COuld he have turned the corner? Sure, but what if he hasn't? The Marlins? Please! They never try to add payroll. The season is not even half way over. Adding another starter still has a lot of value. An ace starter such as Schmidt has A LOT of value!!!!!!!

[Jabroni]

Who says Randa would come so cheap?  He's having a career year, I believe an OPS right around .850, with something like a .360 OBP.  I can't say he'd cost a fortune, but he's on a one year deal (with an option?  no?) and a cheap contract -- I don't think he'd be so dirt cheap...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He's 35 years old and under a 1-year deal. I don't think he will cost much in the way of prospects.

 

No option and i think it would cost two middle level prosects considering they really don't have to move him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

2 mid-level prospects is exactly what I think Randa will cost. The Reds WILL be moving Randa either way. It wouldn't make any sense to keep him.

Edited June 29, 2005 by Jabroni

[ZoomSlowik]

I am assuming Garland will because I have seen him pitch the last few years besides this one. COuld he have turned the corner? Sure, but what if he hasn't? The Marlins? Please! They never try to add payroll. The season is not even half way over. Adding another starter still has a lot of value. An ace starter such as Schmidt has A LOT of value!!!!!!!

 

Okay, if you are using past history for Garland (which has no bearing on what he will do this year), and saying that this year means nothing, why are you doing the reverse? Schmidt has done little to show you that he is still the ace that he has been the past few years. In fact, he's been getting hit about as hard as El Duque. You're making the assumption that he will return to form and that the switch to the AL and the switch to a hitter's park won't affect him. We'd be paying an awful lot based on the chance that he performs like he used to, both in money and talent. As for the Marlins, they've made several moves to try to improve their team, and are in a similar financial position as we are. They signed I-Rod and Benitez, acquired Urbina, and signed Delgado in this offseason. You could argue that they are more prone to make a big move than we are.

Edited June 29, 2005 by ZoomSlowik

[Jabroni]

We need to overpay for a potential backup SS? 

Ozuna is servicable when Uribe needs a day off. I'll keep those 2 at SS thanks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly. We don't need a SS. We need a 3rd baseman that can consistently hit A LOT more.

[nitetrain8601]

What reliever is available that is better than we already have? Not one reliever that is available will make a difference to our march to the World Series like Schmidt would. We have Jenks available to call up at anytime. KW has already said that there is nothing available in terms of relievers that are better than what he has in house either in the majors or minors. I agree with him. It makes no sense to not want to give up these so called prospects who have not made one contribution to our team in order to get someone that can and most likely will make a major contribution. How can you be so sure about Garland being this good for an entire year? Count is so erratic he is aggravating to watch. El Duque has already pissed off KW and Ozzie. And stop comparing us to the Angels, Orioles, Red Sox, and Indians. Our offense is so much worse than any of those teams that we have to pitch lights out in order to win. As much as their offense is better than ours that is how much out pitching has to be better than theirs. That is why we need that other ace starter. Why are you so concerned about our farm system or spending the White Sox money? Let them worry about that.

 

Your posts are so contradictory to each other. You say that why are we so hell bent on keeping prospects who are just that and we don't know how they'll perform on the major league level, and then you say, Baj and Jenks will help out our bullpen??? Then you say we can't even count on Garland, El Duque and Contreras(the last two who won't even be significant impacts on this team come playoff time) who are veterans, but say we could count on minor league prospects relieving? I don't get you at all.

 

And again, you don't seem to get the concept that we don't need another ace pitcher. Why? Because that will minimize probably Garland or Garcia's effectiveness which essentially would be benching an ace. So basically you're trading for a guy who is going to be benched(Ozzie is extremely loyal to his guys and will ride his guys over a guy who was traded for who has similar #'s to Duque and Count). I rather get proven major league relieving like Wagner or Lidge or a 3B or SS who are upgrades at those positions for this team. That is much more needed than starting pitching, especially when 2 of the starters are going to be thrown into the pen.

[ZoomSlowik]

Exactly.  We don't need a SS.  We need a 3rd baseman that can consistently hit A LOT more.

 

I don't get how you can support hanging on to Uribe while also supporting getting an upgrade at 3B. Their attributes are so similar it's scary. Neither is exactly a consistent hitter, but they both have some pop and play very good defense. There aren't exactly a whole lot of third baseman that can hit (only 18 qualified hitters are over .250), and many of them aren't available. Even assuming we do get one of them, we'd take a hit on the defensive front. Getting Chavez is one thing, but I don't really think the available guys are a major upgrade. I would, however, like to get a contact hitter who can play SS/3B that can give these guys some days off and give our offense a different look once in a while.

Edited June 29, 2005 by ZoomSlowik

[ZoomSlowik]

I highly doubt we are going to be able to get Lidge. He has outstanding stuff and is very cheap. Houston would have to be dense to get rid of him. I also would expect Phillly to hang on to Wagner as long as they are somewhere near the division league. However, someone is going to have a decent/solid reliever somewhere that can help.

[nitetrain8601]

I don't get how you can support hanging on to Uribe while also supporting getting an upgrade at 3B. Their attributes are so similar it's scary. Neither is exactly a consistent hitter, but they both have some pop and play very good defense. There aren't exactly a whole lot of third baseman that can hit (only 18 qualified hitters are over .250), and many of them aren't available. Even assuming we do get one of them, we'd take a hit on the defensive front. Getting Chavez is one thing, but I don't really think the available guys are a major upgrade. I would, however, like to get a contact hitter who can play SS/3B that can give these guys some days off and give our offense a different look once in a while.

 

Exactly. To me it's not worth it giving up top prospects for small upgrades at positions. If we're giving up BMac, I want an Eric Chavez or Billy Wagner.

 

 

I highly doubt we are going to be able to get Lidge. He has outstanding stuff and is very cheap. Houston would have to be dense to get rid of him. I also would expect Phillly to hang on to Wagner as long as they are somewhere near the division league. However, someone is going to have a decent/solid reliever somewhere that can help.

 

I highly doubt Lidge, but I was throwing him out for the sake of saying if he was available or someone like him is, it would better for us to pursue him. Wagner will be had in a couple of weeks as Philly's slipped back to earth and is on a skid.

[Jabroni]

I don't get how you can support hanging on to Uribe while also supporting getting an upgrade at 3B. Their attributes are so similar it's scary. Neither is exactly a consistent hitter, but they both have some pop and play very good defense. There aren't exactly a whole lot of third baseman that can hit (only 18 qualified hitters are over .250), and many of them aren't available. Even assuming we do get one of them, we'd take a hit on the defensive front. Getting Chavez is one thing, but I don't really think the available guys are a major upgrade. I would, however, like to get a contact hitter who can play SS/3B that can give these guys some days off and give our offense a different look once in a while.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's much harder to find a good defensive SS than a 3rd baseman. Randa is out there and he is cheap. Can you name a cheap, good defensive SS that will be available at the deadline?

[nitetrain8601]

It's much harder to find a good defensive SS than a 3rd baseman.  Randa is out there and he is cheap.  Can you name a cheap, good defensive SS that will be available at the deadline?

 

Wilson Valdez.

[Jabroni]

Wilson Valdez.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please. Uribe is struggling but his bat is still way better than Valdez's. Even Ozuna is 10 times the player Valdez is. Valdez was hitting .198 on the season. There's a reason he is in the minors right now. He has a good glove but absolutely no stick whatsoever.

Edited June 29, 2005 by Jabroni

[Balta1701]

FYI Everyone...

 

On BBTN tonight during the Houston highlights, Peter Gammons suggested that the Astros may no longer be considering moving parts. They've had a bit of a run lately, and he's saying at least that they've stopped looking to move Clemens.

 

Gammons's suggestion was in fact that Houston might be looking to try to make another comeback run at the Wild Card like they did last year, and to do that they may even be looking to add a bat and some middle relief.

 

In other words...Lidge, Oswalt, Clemens, Ensberg, etc...probably not going to happen if Gammons is to be believed.