The Gigantic all encompassing TRADE THREAD

[ZoomSlowik]

Even though everyone is saying Schmidt might be hurt and he was last year and this and that, look at the numbers.   Schmidt still pitched 225 innings last year with a 3.20 ERA.   Hernandez career high, when he was HEALTHY was only 214 innings.   Schmidt is a horse, and Hernandez is a big game gamer, nothing else really.   If you look at the past three years without even knowing the names, who would you want?  The pitcher that is averaging 200+ innings a year, or the pitcher who didnt even pitch two years ago, barely pitched 80 innings last year, and barely 90 innings 3 years ago?  

 

Whats the point of having a "Big Game Pitcher" if he is on the DL more than he is active?

 

Being better than El Duque isn't the issue. look at my last post. Also, if he were pitching like he were last year, I'd be less opposed to giving up the farm to get Schmidt. The problem is he isn't even close.

Edited June 29, 2005 by ZoomSlowik

[JUGGERNAUT]

At 51-24 & coming off a BIG 2-1 win to break a 2 game losing streak at the hands of the Cub you need to think realistically of what a trade means.

 

Does this team have enough talent to 1) win the division & 2) secure home field advantage in the ALCS? The team has a 9 gm lead over the Twins & a 4.5 gm lead over the Angels. When you figure Timo will be replaced by Gload in weeks to come the answer to both questions is YES.

 

So the trade only has value for the post-season which all comes down to pitching matchups. The bullpen is strengthened by the fact you never play more than 2-3 gms before an off day so you don't have to worry about using a guy too much. You can pretty much use an arm in your pen for 4 innings/2 gms. With Politte, Hermy, Cotts, Marte, & even Shingo coming around I think we match up well with anyone.

 

The last thing you want to do is weaken the defense for offense. So just say no to trading Crede. There is no 3B option available to the White Sox that will give us any more defensively than Joe & his strong arm & quick reflexes put him at the top of the list in turning DP's. That will be even more important in the post.

 

Vizquel 2005 VS LH .238 / .647 VS. RIGHT: .326 / .800 HOME: .273 / .703 AWAY: .326 / .807 plus 37DP .990F% 4.80RF .890ZR

Uribe 2005 VS LH .356 / 1.029 VS. RIGHT: .199 / .511 HOME: .191 / .538 AWAY: .284 / .753 plus 38DP .972F% 4.36RF .838ZR

Ozuna 2005 VS LH .400 / .888 VS. RIGHT: .216 / .491 HOME: .258 / .539 AWAY: .333 / .776 plus 10DP .977F% 5.30RF .889ZR

 

Vizquel is exactly what we need to shore up SS. He is strong where we are weak. Defensively his DP's are on par with Uribe's & his ZR is the best of the 3. Only 11% of the balls in the SS zone have escaped Vizquel.

 

Believe it or not but take a look at Iguchi's stats (especially his consistency) & he might be the most consistent 2B in MLB this year. No need for Durham or any one else here. Durable to play every game in the post.

 

Position players wise Vizquel vs RH will greatly improve our chances of winning in the post.

 

Which leaves the 64K question. Can we count on El Duque in the post?

His performances in post season are legendary. Going to battle in the post season with a healthy El Duque means you have one of the best competitors on the mound today.

 

If the answer is no, then you must trade for a starter better than Contreras. Contreras could not win a 2-1 game like last night if his life depended on it. Yet that is more likely to resemble the games we will see.

A team should not go to battle in the post with Contreras expected to start.

 

Which is why KW is holding off on pulling the trigger. No doubt he's talking to Sabean about Vizquel. The question is whether it's to be a package with Schmidt or just Omar. No doubt Sabean likes what the White Sox have to offer more than Baltimore or most others. Our future is riding on El Duque's health & ability to pitch effectively. Our World Series hopes hinge upon the crafty vet.

[Dick Allen]

Precisely... they have comparable ERAs despite Schmidt pitching in a pitcher's league and park.

 

And how has El Duque faired lately? What is his prognosis? Rest didn't help him last time. Schmidt has won 3 in a row. Using your logic, Houston would never have traded for Randy Johnson in 1998. He was horrible in Seattle that year, and was going to a bandbox where he dominated. If Schmidt is consistanly throwing 94 or 95 then its a pretty good gamble to go for it all.

[ZoomSlowik]

I disagree that our WS hopes depend on El Duque. It's highly unlikely that he's going to pitch more than 2 games the way that the Buehrle/Garcia/Garland trio has pitched. It's going to matter what those three guys do a lot more since they are going to pitch the bulk of the games. Thus far I have no reason to doubt them.

[Milkman delivers]

Believe it or not but take a look at Iguchi's stats (especially his consistency) & he might be the most consistent 2B in MLB this year.  No need for Durham or any one else here.  Durable to play every game in the post.

 

If the answer is no, then you must trade for a starter better than Contreras.  Contreras could not win a 2-1 game like last night if his life depended on it.  Yet that is more likely to resemble the games we will see.

A team should not go to battle in the post with Contreras expected to start.

 

I don't think anyone questioned Iguchi, did they?

 

And Contreras won 2-1 against Rockies in Colorado, right? Not saying he could do it again, just playing devil's advocate.

[ZoomSlowik]

And how has El Duque faired lately? What is his prognosis? Rest didn't help him last time. Schmidt has won 3 in a row. Using your logic, Houston would never have traded for Randy Johnson in 1998. He was horrible in Seattle that year, and was going to a bandbox where he dominated. If Schmidt is consistanly throwing 94 or 95 then its a pretty good gamble to go for it all.

 

Those two dominant starts in extreme pitcher's parks were followed by a rather mediocre one in a hitters park, and he's had a lot more starts like the latter than the former. Also, I'm pretty sure your Johnson comparison doesn't work out too well because I'm fairly sure that trade occured before both teams moved into their new parks. Safeco is a much better pitcher's park than the Kingdom was, and Tropicana is a better hitter's park than the Astrodome was.

[Wedge]

And how has El Duque faired lately? What is his prognosis? Rest didn't help him last time. Schmidt has won 3 in a row. Using your logic, Houston would never have traded for Randy Johnson in 1998. He was horrible in Seattle that year, and was going to a bandbox where he dominated. If Schmidt is consistanly throwing 94 or 95 then its a pretty good gamble to go for it all.

 

Did Johnson help Houston get to the World Series in 1998? I believe the answer is no. What did Johnson cost Houston? Two future All-Stars. So was it worth it to Houston? Half a season of a stud pitcher for 5 or 6 years of two All-Stars.

[upnorthsox]

Schmidt is better than El Duque. I don't think you can really argue otherwise. Their ERA is similar, but Herndez's WHIP and BAA are higher, and Schmidt strikes out a lot more guys. That's not the issue though. Hernandez is going to be relagated to the bullpen in the playoffs. It is somewhat important if he is better than Contreras or not, since the 4th starter will have to pitch probably twice. Statistically, this isn't even close. Contreras has a much better ERA, a much better WHIP, a much better BAA, and a decent strikeout rate, although it is lower. The comparison that is really important is whether or not he is better than Garland or Garcia. I'm not even going to bother with those comparisons, because outside of K's it's not really close. Schmidt has shown little this season to convince that he can consistently be better than Garland or Garcia, which is key since we would be cutting their use in the playoffs at least in half. Maybe Schmidt can get back to his old form, maybe he can't. So far since he came back he's got several poor starts and two very good ones in extreme pitchers' parks. I'd really like to see more before we give up anything significant and diminish the value of Garcia or Garland.

 

Contreras will not start ahead of El Duque in the playoffs unless El Duque can't go. EOS.

 

I'm not against this trade but I can definitely understand people being hesitant because there's a risk involved and if you're clearing off the top shelf to get him there's should be no/little risks. The last thing this team needs is for San Fran to do a flip of the Sidney Ponson deal on us.

[ZoomSlowik]

I don't think anyone questioned Iguchi, did they?

 

And Contreras won 2-1 against Rockies in Colorado, right?  Not saying he could do it again, just playing devil's advocate.

 

He also outdueled Grienke twice in close games (think one of them was 2-1, the other was 1-0). I'd like to see a couple more starts before we condemn him. He was pitching great before his last two starts. I don't see how everyone can be so concerned about two bad starts from Contreras and so excited about two good starts from Schmidt when both go against their norms for the season.

[Milkman delivers]

Those two dominant starts in extreme pitcher's parks were followed by a rather mediocre one in a hitters park, and he's had a lot more starts like the latter than the former. Also, I'm pretty sure your Johnson comparison doesn't work out too well because I'm fairly sure that trade occured before both teams moved into their new parks. Safeco is a much better pitcher's park than the Kingdom was, and Tropicana is a better hitter's park than the Astrodome was.

 

Minute Maid.

[Balta1701]

I don't think anyone questioned Iguchi, did they?

 

And Contreras won 2-1 against Rockies in Colorado, right?  Not saying he could do it again, just playing devil's advocate.

I think Contreras is going to for his whole career be one of those guys like Kerry Wood...when he comes out on a night where he has his best stuff, he can beat anyone, but when he's off he looks really bad, and he'll give you about 60/40 good games or so.

 

Considering that almost every other team in the big leagues would like to get that out of a guy who's basically 4th in talent on that team, I don't think he's that much of a weak link.

 

My perspective on all of this is that if someone like Schmidt came for free, he'd be a wonderful addition, but given all of the concerns laid out here by everyone else, he's just not going to be worth the price.

[ZoomSlowik]

Contreras will not start ahead of El Duque in the playoffs unless El Duque can't go. EOS.

 

I'm not against this trade but I can definitely understand people being hesitant because there's a risk involved and if you're clearing off the top shelf to get him there's should be no/little risks. The last thing this team needs is for San Fran to do a flip of the Sidney Ponson deal on us.

 

I think that remains to be seen. I personally doubt that they are going to throw El Duque just because of his past performances if he is still recovering from injury or pitching like crap. I think if Contreras grossly outpitches him (which he has been doing most of the year) he'll be the 4th starter. However, we'll see. I certainly doubt that either will start ahead of Buehrle, Garland, or Garcia at this point.

[ZoomSlowik]

Minute Maid.

 

Whatever. You're right. I wanted to say Enron, but I knew that wasn't what they called it. Some damn orange juice brand.

[beck72]

I've advocated a trade for Schmidt and Vizquel with the Sox giving up Contreras, Uribe, Anderson, Gload, and a lower prospect (or their choice of Takatsu/Vizcaino).  (The Giants might take this because they want major league ready guys.)  That wouldn't cost us more than a couple million more than we are paying Contreras/Uribe, but would be a definite improvement in our postseason chances.  Vizquel is a .357 OBP guy.  Uribe is at .276.  That's like having a .300 hitter v. a .220 hitter in the lineup.  The .357 guy makes a lot fewer outs.  Given our offense, that would help a lot at the bottom of the order.  Plus Vizquel is a switch hitter for a lineup bereft of lefties, has more speed than Uribe, and is basically his equal defensively.  Both are signed for 3 years. 

 

I don't think SF would give up Vizquel [though he'd look great on the sox--what he could do for the sox at the plate would be immeasurableI'd be giddy as a school girl with everything POds, Iguchi and Omar could do to set the table for the bashers]. But he'll be needed for next yr when Bonds comes back.

 

A swap of Uribe isn't a half bad idea. SF can get some power out of the SS spot, as long as they had a #2 hitter to replace Omar in another position, and would help them get younger

[Balta1701]

I don't think SF would give up Vizquel [though he'd look great on the sox--what he could do for the sox at the plate would be immeasurableI'd be giddy as a school girl with everything POds, Iguchi and Omar could do to set the table for the bashers]. But he'll be needed for next yr when Bonds comes back.

 

A swap of Uribe isn't a half bad idea. SF can get some power out of the SS spot, as long as they had a #2 hitter to replace Omar in another position, and would help them get younger

I think there's a reason KW only offered him 2 years in the offseason.

[S720]

At 51-24 & coming off a BIG 2-1 win to break a 2 game losing streak at the hands of the Cub you need to think realistically of what a trade means.

 

Does this team have enough talent to 1) win the division & 2) secure home field advantage in the ALCS?  The team has a 9 gm lead over the Twins & a 4.5 gm lead over the Angels.  When you figure Timo will be replaced by Gload in weeks to come the answer to both questions is YES.

 

So the trade only has value for the post-season which all comes down to pitching matchups.  The bullpen is strengthened by the fact you never play more than 2-3 gms before an off day so you don't have to worry about using a guy too much.  You can pretty much use an arm in your pen for 4 innings/2 gms.  With Politte, Hermy, Cotts, Marte, & even Shingo coming around I think we match up well with anyone. 

 

The last thing you want to do is weaken the defense for offense.  So just say no to trading Crede.  There is no 3B option available to the White Sox that will give us any more defensively than Joe & his strong arm & quick reflexes put him at the top of the list in turning DP's.  That will be even more important in the post.

 

Vizquel 2005 VS LH .238 / .647 VS. RIGHT: .326 / .800 HOME: .273 / .703 AWAY: .326 / .807 plus 37DP .990F% 4.80RF .890ZR

Uribe 2005  VS LH .356 / 1.029 VS. RIGHT: .199 / .511 HOME: .191 / .538 AWAY: .284 / .753 plus 38DP .972F% 4.36RF .838ZR

Ozuna 2005 VS LH .400 / .888 VS. RIGHT: .216 / .491 HOME: .258 / .539 AWAY: .333 / .776 plus 10DP .977F% 5.30RF .889ZR

 

Vizquel is exactly what we need to shore up SS.  He is strong where we are weak.  Defensively his DP's are on par with Uribe's & his ZR is the best of the 3.  Only 11% of the balls in the SS zone have escaped Vizquel.

 

Believe it or not but take a look at Iguchi's stats (especially his consistency) & he might be the most consistent 2B in MLB this year.  No need for Durham or any one else here.  Durable to play every game in the post.

 

Position players wise Vizquel vs RH will greatly improve our chances of winning in the post.

 

Which leaves the 64K question.  Can we count on El Duque in the post?

His performances in post season are legendary.  Going to battle in the post season with a healthy El Duque means you have one of the best competitors on the mound today. 

 

If the answer is no, then you must trade for a starter better than Contreras.  Contreras could not win a 2-1 game like last night if his life depended on it.  Yet that is more likely to resemble the games we will see.

A team should not go to battle in the post with Contreras expected to start.

 

Which is why KW is holding off on pulling the trigger.  No doubt he's talking to Sabean about Vizquel.  The question is whether it's to be a package with Schmidt or just Omar.  No doubt Sabean likes what the White Sox have to offer more than Baltimore or most others.  Our future is riding on El Duque's health & ability to pitch effectively.  Our World Series hopes hinge upon the crafty vet.

 

JUG:

 

I just love it when you analyze! Good stuff.

[Milkman delivers]

Whatever.  You're right. I wanted to say Enron, but I knew that wasn't what they called it. Some damn orange juice brand.

 

I don't even know how I remember the difference between the two. They both suck right now, anyway.

 

The Astros lost last night in Colorado, so hopefully they're starting a nice little nose dive that will urge them to sell instead of buying.

[southsideirish71]

He also outdueled Grienke twice in close games (think one of them was 2-1, the other was 1-0). I'd like to see a couple more starts before we condemn him. He was pitching great before his last two starts. I don't see how everyone can be so concerned about two bad starts from Contreras and so excited about two good starts from Schmidt when both go against their norms for the season.

 

Hanging our hats on the Count beating a bad Royals team twice or a bad Rockies team isnt looking into history. The count for years would look dominating against bad teams, and then would choke against good ones. The ironic thing is that the minute someone would hit his fastball hard at all, he would completely abandon it and go into the forkball mode. The count is tipping his pitches again, he is working real slow again. We have one of the best game calling catchers that he shakes off over and over. Watch AJ during the game, he and widger both look at wits end when they watch over and over the shake off on the fastball.

 

No one is denying the count has filthy stuff. I am confused why he doesnt feature the 95-96 mph fastball more and use the fork as the out pitch. But he doesnt. The minute someone puts good wood on the ball, he is the forkball machine.

Edited June 29, 2005 by southsideirish71

[beck72]

I think there's a reason KW only offered him 2 years in the offseason.

 

But for those two yrs at least, he'd put up some nice numbers [obp, sh, sb's, switchitting, etc]. He certainly hasn't had a let down from his very solid 2004 yr. IIRC, will Omar make like $5 mill in his 3rd yr?

[Dick Allen]

Did Johnson help Houston get to the World Series in 1998?  I believe the answer is no.  What did Johnson cost Houston?  Two future All-Stars.  So was it worth it to Houston?  Half a season of a stud pitcher for 5 or 6 years of two All-Stars.

 

Would Houston have won the WS since if they didn't make that trade. The answer is no. Its worth the gamble.

[Balta1701]

Would Houston have won the WS since if they didn't make that trade. The answer is no. Its worth the gamble.

Did Houston win the WS that year?

[beck72]

Hanging our hats on the Count beating a bad Royals team twice or a bad Rockies team isnt looking into history.  The count for years would look dominating against bad teams, and then would choke against good ones.  The ironic thing is that the minute someone would hit his fastball hard at all, he would completely abandon it and go into the forkball mode.  The count is tipping his pitches again, he is working real slow again.  We have one of the best game calling catchers that he shakes off over and over.  Watch AJ during the game, he and widger both look at wits end when they watch over and over the shake off on the fastball.

 

No one is denying the count has filthy stuff.  I am confused why he doesnt feature the 95-96 mph fastball more and use the fork as the out pitch.  But he doesnt.  The minute someone puts good wood on the ball, he is the forkball machine.

You took the words right out of my mouth about his being bale to beat the weaker teams.

 

You can also see Coop and Ozzie getting pissed when Jose is doing his slow down routine. I really don't want to see Jose pitching the 4th game of a playoff series. Now, I can see him in the pen, where he walks or hits guys and he gets lifted right away.

[southsider2k5]

Did Houston win the WS that year?

 

Could anyone guarentee that any trade will guarentee the Sox a World Series? Its all risk/reward. Houston as a middleish market team had to take a chance on the best pitcher in the game at the time to try to get into their small window at winning a title.

[Milkman delivers]

Did Houston win the WS that year?

 

I think Johnson pitched great for them after they traded for him. I don't see how your question has any relevance.

 

If the Sox picked up Schmidt and he pitched great, but the rest of the team went into a funk, it would still be right move. You pick up a guy hoping that he will help the team, and Johnson did (if I'm not mistaken).

[VAfan]

Schmidt has a buyout. Starting pitchers can be traded. The idea is going for a world championship, not just hoping to make the playoffs and hoping to win a series or two.  If the Sox acquired Schmidt for minor leaguers, I guarantee you ESPN would have a different attitude about them.  And if they did win the WS, the payroll next year would swell to a lot more than $80 million.

 

If Contreras can be traded, then why not make him part of a deal for Schmidt? He's a more proven commodity than BMac, Anderson, Gload, or anyone else we might include in a deal with SF.

 

And why do you think I want to make this deal? To improve our chances for a WS with Schmidt and Vizquel instead of Contreras and Uribe. If we added the SF guys, there would be no role for Contreras or Uribe, so why not try to make them cornerstones of a deal.

 

To me, trading just minor leaguers for Schmidt or Barnett makes no sense, even if SF or the Marlins went for it.