The Gigantic all encompassing TRADE THREAD

[Milkman delivers]

Diaz wasn't a highly rated prospect. Neither were Munoz or Barcelo. Wright had arm problems. Brandon McCarthy IS a highly rated prospect. Just because B-Mac has pitched at a higher than AA for less than a season now, (he had a good start at Wrigley BTW), and because he hasn't automatically come in and put up uber like stats, people are already waiting to give up on him.

 

I don't think wanting to trade McCarthy for a pitcher that is 10x better than him = giving up on him.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Jun 29, 2005 -> 06:48 PM)

I never said he was a fluke. I said he isn't the same pitcher that he used to be. There's a difference. Why don't we go get Chan Ho Park too, he used to be pretty good. Maybe we can get Kerry Wood while we're at it. Take a look at his stats for this season and tell me that he is an ace that is going to get us to the series. I'll believe it when I see him put up a few more good starts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Comparing Chan Ho Park to Jason Schmidt? WOWIE WOW!

[Milkman delivers]

Take a look at the Yankees for what happens if you keep trading all of your prospects. They've got a lot of old guys on their roster, and no one in the minors. They have no one that can really help their major league team, and no real ammo to add another player in a trade. They're pretty much stuck with what they have. And the Sox can't afford to keep adding FA veterans like the Yankees do to replace them. Not all of them pan out, but those that do are of upmost importance, especially for a mid market team.

 

They've also won 26 world series. And they are the extreme of trading away prospects. We wouldn't go that far.

[DBAHO]

That Young kid is behind Anderson and Sweeney, right?

 

And Liotta, Gonzalez, and even Tracey behind B-Mac.

Young = High Risk prospect. He could be a Mike Cameron at the major league level, or he'll never hit well enough to be more than a 4th outfielder.

 

I'd trade Sean Tracey before I would trade Brandon McCarthy. Gonzalez will end up being our best pitcher coming through the minors for a long time if he can stay healthy though in my mind.

[Rowand44]

Let's remember this with his bad starts this month.

 

1st one - Chris Widger was catching him. Big NO-NO.

2nd one - Gave up a grand slam which really hurt against the Flubs.

 

Other than that, he's given up 2 ER, 1 ER, and 3 ER in his other outings so far this month.

Great points. As we've all talked about Aj needs to catch Jose and after that grandslam he did settle down a bit. I'm not worried about Contreras I think he'll be absolutely fine

[JUGGERNAUT]

I agree with the general premise that both Contreras & Uribe can be used as part of a package to get Schmidt & Vizquel. They both have sizeable trade value & assuming the White Sox throw in a few million it equates to a salary dump for SF.

 

They are not rebuilding as much as retooling & looking to save a few bucks when Bonds isn't playing. They've got Barry locked up for 2006 so they definitely will look to be contenders next year. Moving to the NL might be exactly what Contreras needs.

 

With Uribe & Contreras in the pkg KW doesn't need to include top tier prospects. 2 mid tier prospects would get it down.

[DBAHO]

I don't think wanting to trade McCarthy for a pitcher that is 10x better than him = giving up on him.

10x times better than him is overstating things to say the least. Just remember about payroll flexibility and the advantages of having a good, young cheap starter in our control for a long, long time. Look at Jeremy Bonderman. He was terrible early for the Tiggies, and look how good he's become in 2 to 3 years from that.

[VAfan]

His velocity is still down a bit, which is usually a concern. The more important part was that his performance this year is about the same as El Duque. As I said, unless he puts together a couple of good starts in a row, I'd rather hang onto our top two prospects, unless we could get them to take Contreras in the deal (since their periferrals are similar and cost about the same, I'd rather go with the guy with a better history), and try to acquire some guys that will help our offense a bit and another solid arm in the pen, since our top 4 guys are going to get a ton of work throughout the playoffs.

 

Glad to see more people beginning to see that Contreras needs to be part of any successful deal for a starting pitcher this year.

 

I might rather have Burnett too, but I don't see that happening. First, unlike Garcia, we have little hope of signing him, and as a guy whose topped 150 innings only twice in his career, he isn't going to be worth what some team will pay. Second, the Marlins presumably want a young stud like Cabrera or multiple prospects and would have no interest in Contreras.

 

SF might take Contreras because he has no health issues and would slot in the same position they have Schmidt for $2 million less next year. That may be worth doing for them if we can fill some of their other holes (OF, 1B, RP).

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(Wedge @ Jun 29, 2005 -> 07:33 PM)

Precisely... they have comparable ERAs despite Schmidt pitching in a pitcher's league and park.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

El Duque has pitched for the Yanks. Not exactly the greatest hitters park. Schmidt pitched for the Pirates as well as the Giants. Pittsburgh is not exactly the best pitchers park and he had awful teams to play for which should be taken into consideration.

[Rowand44]

10x times better than him is overstating things to say the least. Just remember about payroll flexibility and the advantages of having a good, young cheap starter in our control for a long, long time. Look at Jeremy Bonderman. He was terrible early for the Tiggies, and look how good he's become in 2 to 3 years from that.

A 19 game loser two years ago I believe?? One thing I will say is Bonderman's stuff is definitely much better then Brandon's, however Bmac has much better control and a better mentality then Bonoderman, he just has to harnass his nerves and throw strikes like we all know he can do.

[upnorthsox]

Vizquel has 3 errors to Uribe's 8, and has turned the same number of DPs (albeit in more innings, but with a different pitching staff).  Plus his ZR and Range factor numbers are basically as good.  I don't doubt Uribe has a stronger arm, but overall we wouldn't be hurt defensively with Vizquel in there.  As for hitting, good pitching eats up Uribe so I see him as an auto out in the postseason.  Vizquel is much more difficult to get out.

 

As for Huff, I was once for him, but now I don't see a position.  He's too weak defensively to supplant Crede at 3B, and he's not better than Everett as a lefty backup to Dye, and if Ross Gload comes back and isn't traded, he's not better than Gload as a lefty backup to Konerko.

 

I agree about Huff, would love to have his bat but there's no where to put him.

 

 

The problem is we'd be stuck with Vizquel for two more years after this for $6 mil per. That's money that the Sox could use to retain more valuable pieces like Garland, A.J., Konerko, and Thomas. Uribe is a lot cheaper. Vizquel is definitely a better hitter (he's a bit above his career marks again this year though), but I think the D is about a draw. Plus, the Giants don't really have a need to move him, or Schmidt for that matter. If they're going to try to compete next year when Bonds and Benitez get back, those two guys are key pieces. That's why I'll believe Schmidt gets dealt when I see it.

 

Vizquel is only making $4 mil per(3 yr $12 mil), Uribe will be at $2.5 mil next yr so the difference is only $1.5 mil next yr or less than we're paying Davis and Timo this yr. San Fran would do it as a way of getting younger, cheaper, and better prospects out of us.

[ZoomSlowik]

That Young kid is behind Anderson and Sweeney, right?

 

And Liotta, Gonzalez, and even Tracey behind B-Mac.

 

Young isn't even close. The guys hitting .254 and striking out a ton. Sweeney isn't even that close yet. He's hitting .273 at AA, but he has NO HOMERS! That tells me he still has to develop some power before we even consider it. Gio has made one start at AA, Tracey is only doing okay, and Liotta is still in low A. All of those guys other than Anderson and McCarthy are at least two years away.

[Milkman delivers]

10x times better than him is overstating things to say the least. Just remember about payroll flexibility and the advantages of having a good, young cheap starter in our control for a long, long time. Look at Jeremy Bonderman. He was terrible early for the Tiggies, and look how good he's become in 2 to 3 years from that.

 

But the Tigers had the luxury of sucking ass when Bonderman was getting started. McCarthy can't help us this year, and probably not next year either. I'll stick to my opinion that Schmidt is 10x better than McCarthy, but that's just for right now. In a few years, of course McCarthy will most likely be better, but this isn't a few years from now.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Jun 29, 2005 -> 07:56 PM)

He also outdueled Grienke twice in close games (think one of them was 2-1, the other was 1-0). I'd like to see a couple more starts before we condemn him. He was pitching great before his last two starts. I don't see how everyone can be so concerned about two bad starts from Contreras and so excited about two good starts from Schmidt when both go against their norms for the season.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh boy he pitched 2 good games against the Royals? Great job El Duque!!!!

[ZoomSlowik]

Garland pitched 6 innings against that same lineup and gave up 6 hits, 3 walks, and 6 runs. El Duque against AZ pitched 4 2/3 and gave up 8 hits, 3 walks, and 6 earned runs. The Count pitched 6 innings against them and gave up 9 hits, 3 walks, and 8 earned runs. This was all at home.

 

Needless to say, against the same exact team, Schmidt pitched better than all of them. He pitched 6 innings, gave up 9 hits, 3 walks, and 3 earned runs. This was an away game for him. Give me Schmidt instead of any of those 3 that pitched against AZ for us. I would love to have Burnett, but if you are worried about spending money and prospects then you will pay a lot more for him than you will for Schmidt.

 

Way to use one start for each of the pitchers as a basis for comparison. How about their other 12-14 starts apiece, huh? I doubt Burnett costs anymore than Schmidt will because he is a pending free agent. There is at least an option on Schmidt.

[DBAHO]

A 19 game loser two years ago I believe??  One thing I will say is Bonderman's stuff is definitely much better then Brandon's, however Bmac has much better control and a better mentality then Bonoderman, he just has to harnass his nerves and throw strikes like we all know he can do.

I'm just hoping B-Mac throws a real good game today, which I think he'll do, to quiet down those who want him traded. Perfect situation for him to succeed today in a big pitchers park.

[3E8]

Young isn't even close. The guys hitting .254 and striking out a ton. Sweeney isn't even that close yet. He's hitting .273 at AA, but he has NO HOMERS! That tells me he still has to develop some power before we even consider it. Gio has made one start at AA, Tracey is only doing okay, and Liotta is still in low A. All of those guys other than Anderson and McCarthy are at least two years away.

Gio is in Birmingham?

[Rowand44]

Young isn't even close. The guys hitting .254 and striking out a ton. Sweeney isn't even that close yet. He's hitting .273 at AA, but he has NO HOMERS! That tells me he still has to develop some power before we even consider it. Gio has made one start at AA, Tracey is only doing okay, and Liotta is still in low A. All of those guys other than Anderson and McCarthy are at least two years away.

Gio's made one start in Winston Salem not Birmingham. Tracey had dynamite numbers but he had one terrible outing that really raised his era. I agree about Young and Sweeney they still have a long time to go but both have enormous potential.

[nitetrain8601]

I'm just hoping B-Mac throws a real good game today, which I think he'll do, to quiet down those who want him traded. Perfect situation for him to succeed today in a big pitchers park.

 

...or ruin any chance of a Schmidt deal.

[ZoomSlowik]

Gio's made one start in Winston Salem not Birmingham.  Tracey had dynamite numbers but he had one terrible outing that really raised his era.  I agree about Young and Sweeney they still have a long time to go but both have enormous potential.

 

My bad on Gio.

[DBAHO]

But the Tigers had the luxury of sucking ass when Bonderman was getting started.  McCarthy can't help us this year, and probably not next year either.  I'll stick to my opinion that Schmidt is 10x better than McCarthy, but that's just for right now.  In a few years, of course McCarthy will most likely be better, but this isn't a few years from now.

FWIW on Schmidt, he was still struggling last night against the D-Backs, and was very lucky he didn't give up more runs. He's usually has pin - point like control, threw something like 7 or 8 balls in a row, a couple in the dirt as well. At his best, yes he's one of the top 5 starters in the league. But his velocity is down, he could have arm problems and look at these splits;

 

.BAA - .271

AWAY - .308/.390/.444

 

That tells me, at the Cell, if he pitched the way he has this season so far, he would get killed at the Cell. Not a great big difference from McCarthy.

[Milkman delivers]

Young isn't even close. The guys hitting .254 and striking out a ton. Sweeney isn't even that close yet. He's hitting .273 at AA, but he has NO HOMERS! That tells me he still has to develop some power before we even consider it. Gio has made one start at AA, Tracey is only doing okay, and Liotta is still in low A. All of those guys other than Anderson and McCarthy are at least two years away.

 

Do we need them to be ready next year? Or even the year after that?

 

No, we don't. By trading away McCarthy, Sweeney, or Anderson, we're not mortgaging the future. There are viable options behind them, just not ready soon. But, we don't need them soon. We have our outfield locked up at least through next year, and I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to find a stop-gap OFer to take over one of the spots for a year. Our starters are locked up even longer, and I'm sure we could find a cheap stop-gap for one of those guys for a year.

[Rowand44]

I'm just hoping B-Mac throws a real good game today, which I think he'll do, to quiet down those who want him traded. Perfect situation for him to succeed today in a big pitchers park.

I got a feeling he'll throw a good game too. His last outing his stuff was probably the best I've seen from him but he couldn't get his curveball over and was falling behind every hitter, as long as he does what he's done his whole minor league career(get ahead of hitters) then I'm sure he'll throw a good game.

[ZoomSlowik]

Comparing Chan Ho Park to Jason Schmidt? WOWIE WOW!

 

 

Oh boy he pitched 2 good games against the Royals? Great job El Duque!!!!

 

Are you going to learn how to read sometime soon? I already responded to both of those points, and the latter quote is about Contreras, not El Duque.

[3E8]

Can someone pull up Schmidt's career splits vs. AL.