The Gigantic all encompassing TRADE THREAD

[upnorthsox]

According the southsidesox.com, the D-backs had some scouts at the game last night looking at someone in our bullpen.  They speculate that it would be Vizciano.  Has anyone heard anything about a trade? I didn't want to search through that massive trade thread. Here's the clip:

 

Could be a trade in the works with the D'backs.

 

An Arizona scout has attended the last two Sox-Tigers games. The Diamondbacks desperately need relief help.

The D'backs got to see a whole lot of bullpen on Wednesday. Luis Vizcaino has to be the guy who the Sox are shopping. He's out of options, and wore out my patience long ago. He didn't even look good in his 2.1 scoreless last night. Maybe the D'Backs were fooled by the results.

 

Cotts and Shingo both have options left, and have pitched very effectively lately, so I don't see them as options. Marte, Politte, and Hermanson are too valuable to be giving up. On top of all that, I can't think of anything on the major league level that Arizona could give us to make the team better. The deal would have to be for prospects.

 

LOL!! I'm really getting a kick out of this, there's been 850+ posts here in the week this has been up and people are ragging about its size yet last night's game thread has over 1000 post and it's only been up barely 24 hrs yet no one b****es about its size, and that doesn't include the "And that's a White Sox Winner" thread which is typically 10 pages worth of people playing with smilie icons. Personally I don't go beyond the first page of threads but in doing a quick check of the last 5 pages I counted 27 threads that had less than 10 posts, I would guess that number would be double that without this thread.

[Rowand44]

its funny cuz farmer and melton both raved about how well viz threw. melton said he hadnt seen the 2 seemer viz threw tonight since last year in milwaulkee, and farmer said he had a great slider workin....i missed him pitching tho so i cant give my two cents. just sayin what the experts said

The sinker he was throwing last night was moving all over the freakin place, that thing was nasty. I just hope he uses it more. Right now I'd take a wait and see with Viz and I really wouldn't touch Shingo. Shingo's back and we all know how good the guy is, it's like we just added a stud reliever to the pen imo with shingo. I'm not convinced on Viz yet however he did look good yesterday so instead of getting rid of the guy I'd like to see him pitch some more and see if he can revert back to what he's done the past few years.

[Milkman delivers]

I'd like to see him pitch some more and see if he can revert back to what he's done the past few years.

 

I'd like to see him revert back to last year's form, and that's it. He sucked the year before that.

[VAfan]

And both of you are wrong.

 

You're using RF and ZR from this year -- a half season's worth of data, not much.  3E8 showed the past years with Uribe being much, much better.  And even if you're gonna use defense as a standard using this years numbers, Uribe has almost two more Win Shares than Vizquel has defensively.

 

Other than errors, which mean very little in the grand scheme of things, Uribe is much better than Vizquel defensively.

 

I'm not doubting that Uribe has some marginal additional value defensively, but I just don't see it making a significant difference. I watched the Giants game last night. The announcers claimed that Vizquel has the best fielding percentage of any SS in history. He's not a liability. Whereas Uribe is a complete liability for the lineup. We're talking .80 points in OPS (1.66 points gap against right handers) difference between Vizquel and Uribe. That's huge.

[Kyyle23]

I'm not doubting that Uribe has some marginal additional value defensively, but I just don't see it making a significant difference.

 

His defense saved the game last night, it doesnt get any more significant than that.

[VAfan]

His defense saved the game last night, it doesnt get any more significant than that.

 

I'm not in Chicago so I didn't see the game. What was the play he made, and can you say for certain that Omar Vizquel couldn't have made the same play?

 

It's my belief that in the postseason, a 8th or 9th place hitter that is going to get on base on average at least once more per game and who has much better speed is of real value, especially when you are splitting hairs about their defensive differences.

[Milkman delivers]

I'm not in Chicago so I didn't see the game.  What was the play he made, and can you say for certain that Omar Vizquel couldn't have made the same play? 

 

It's my belief that in the postseason, a 8th or 9th place hitter that is going to get on base on average at least once more per game and who has much better speed is of real value, especially when you are splitting hairs about their defensive differences.

 

No, Omar Vizquel would've dove for it and missed it by a good foot. Uribe is one of very few SS's that would have made that play.

[Kyyle23]

I'm not in Chicago so I didn't see the game.  What was the play he made, and can you say for certain that Omar Vizquel couldn't have made the same play? 

 

It's my belief that in the postseason, a 8th or 9th place hitter that is going to get on base on average at least once more per game and who has much better speed is of real value, especially when you are splitting hairs about their defensive differences.

 

bottom of the 9th, runners on 1st and 3rd with Placido Polanco up. Polanco hits a bouncer about 8 feet into the outfield between Crede and Uribe. uribe picked up the ball, planted and fired a bullet to first to get Polanco(who was sliding). The game was over if he didnt make that play.

 

Vizquel doesnt have the arm to make that play.

[Kyyle23]

go to the whitesox official homepage, you can watch the play under "Uribe's Clutch Play" and decide for yourself if Vizquel would have made the play.

 

Keep in mind that I really like Vizquel and wanted him on the Sox in the offseason.

[upnorthsox]

Yep it's not like Vizquel hasn't done that to us oh about 50 times over the yrs. He really sucks.

[Kyyle23]

Yep it's not like Vizquel hasn't done that to us oh about 50 times over the yrs. He really sucks.

 

yeah upnorth, thats what I said. Vizquel sucks.

 

3 years ago he would have made that play. Now I highly doubt it.

 

Once again, I really like Vizquel.

[Milkman delivers]

Yep it's not like Vizquel hasn't done that to us oh about 50 times over the yrs. He really sucks.

 

Ha, anyone see this s***? All I say is that Vizquel wouldn't have made the play, but apparently it looked like "Omar Vizquel is a s***ty player, he sucks, and he should die."

 

Honestly, people really twist your words a lot around here.

[Kyyle23]

Ha, anyone see this s***?  All I say is that Vizquel wouldn't have made the play, but apparently it looked like "Omar Vizquel is a s***ty player, he sucks, and he should die."

 

Honestly, people really twist your words a lot around here.

 

We all think he sucks, dont you know milkman?

[SoxFan1]

I find it hard to imagine the DBacks will get any of our relievers now that Marte is down.

[VAfan]

After reading 9 pages of this post, I still believe the potential trade I posted on page 5 or so is still the best deal for the Sox and one that is realistic for both teams.

 

Sox get: Jason Schmidt and Omar Vizquel.

 

Giants get: Jose Contreras, Juan Uribe, Brian Anderson (or Sweeney), and their choice of 1 among Takatsu/Vizcaino/Bajenaru and their choice of 1 of Gload/Munoz/Diaz/Borchard.

 

Can any other team beat that deal? Washington might offer Zach Day, but he's never thrown more than 130 innings and he's hurt. And I doubt Washington can add major league ready prospects to the mix because anyone fitting that description has already been called up. Boston, the Yankees, and the O's don't have a better starting pitcher to offer, do they? Branson Arroyo? Miguel Cabrera?

 

If no one can beat the deal, is it sweet enough to get SF to move Schmidt and Vizquel? They don't have to make a trade, after all.

 

I guess I'd be willing to consider other sweeteners as long as Brandon McCarthy is not part of this or any other deal. He proved last night that once he settles down and catches his breath, he's ready to be our 5th starter right now. No walks and 5 Ks. 1 dinger (still his prime weakness). I'd say rest El Duque until September.

 

 

But the other key to this deal for me is adding Vizquel because replacing Uribe is the best way to improve our offense at this point. If you look at his splits, Vizquel's OBP against righties is a very good .404. Uribe's OBP against righties is .238. Meanwhile, Ozuna get on against left handers at a .455 OBP clip. So a trade for Vizquel would allow Ozzie to play Ozuna on a logical schedule in much the same way that Graffanino used to sub for Valentin. It wouldn't have to be a pure platoon, but it would turn a position that makes outs almost 80% of the time against right handed pitchers to one that makes outs only 60% of the time. At the bottom of the order, that's going to kill a lot fewer rallies and yield a lot more runs. In a tight playoff situation, it could make the difference. The Sox can't get that kind of marginal improvement by trading out Crede for Randa.

 

I'd be ready to make this deal any time, and I think the sooner KW strikes, the better.

[SoxFan1]

Thats a lot to give up but I think it is worth it. Its a 5 for 2 deal but I think it would help this team out a lot. Vizquel's OBP would look good in the 9 spot and Schmidt is, well, Schmidt. I'd rather give up Sweeney than Anderson but it would put more pressure on Anderson to perform. It's a good deal but you can also argue Uribe is slowly turninbg it around and Uribe AT 100% is better offensively and defensively than Vizquel. Probably not defensively but it's close.

[VAfan]

go to the whitesox official homepage, you can watch the play under "Uribe's Clutch Play" and decide for yourself if Vizquel would have made the play.

 

Keep in mind that I really like Vizquel and wanted him on the Sox in the offseason.

 

Okay, I looked. I agree that Vizquel (and very few other SS) could not have made a throw from that far. But Uribe didn't have to range that far to get to the ball. The reason the throw was so far was because he started the play in the outfield grass.

 

Vizquel would have been positioned in the infield dirt instead of the outfield grass (knowing his arm is not as strong), but would still have likely gotten to the ball, and from the dirt would have had a very good chance of making the throw in time to get Polanco.

 

The marginal difference is not worth keeping Uribe if we could get SF to part with Vizquel.

[upnorthsox]

After reading 9 pages of this post, I still believe the potential trade I posted on page 5 or so is still the best deal for the Sox and one that is realistic for both teams. 

 

Sox get: Jason Schmidt and Omar Vizquel.

 

Giants get: Jose Contreras, Juan Uribe, Brian Anderson (or Sweeney), and their choice of 1 among Takatsu/Vizcaino/Bajenaru and their choice of 1 of Gload/Munoz/Diaz/Borchard.

 

Can any other team beat that deal?  Washington might offer Zach Day, but he's never thrown more than 130 innings and he's hurt.  And I doubt Washington can add major league ready prospects to the mix because anyone fitting that description has already been called up.  Boston, the Yankees, and the O's don't have a better starting pitcher to offer, do they?  Branson Arroyo?  Miguel Cabrera?

 

If no one can beat the deal, is it sweet enough to get SF to move Schmidt and Vizquel?  They don't have to make a trade, after all. 

 

I guess I'd be willing to consider other sweeteners as long as Brandon McCarthy is not part of this or any other deal.  He proved last night that once he settles down and catches his breath, he's ready to be our 5th starter right now.  No walks and 5 Ks.  1 dinger (still his prime weakness).  I'd say rest El Duque until September. 

But the other key to this deal for me is adding Vizquel because replacing Uribe is the best way to improve our offense at this point.  If you look at his splits, Vizquel's OBP against righties is a very good .404.  Uribe's OBP against righties is .238.  Meanwhile, Ozuna get on against left handers at a .455 OBP clip.  So a trade for Vizquel would allow Ozzie to play Ozuna on a logical schedule in much the same way that Graffanino used to sub for Valentin.  It wouldn't have to be a pure platoon, but it would turn a position that makes outs almost 80% of the time against right handed pitchers to one that makes outs only 60% of the time.  At the bottom of the order, that's going to kill a lot fewer rallies and yield a lot more runs.  In a tight playoff situation, it could make the difference.  The Sox can't get that kind of marginal improvement by trading out Crede for Randa.

 

I'd be ready to make this deal any time, and I think the sooner KW strikes, the better.

 

I'd have no problem with that deal at all, I just don't think SF would take Contreras. But if in the end they would................

[SoxFan1]

Okay, I looked.  I agree that Vizquel (and very few other SS) could not have made a throw from that far.  But Uribe didn't have to range that far to get to the ball.  The reason the throw was so far was because he started the play in the outfield grass.

 

Vizquel would have been positioned in the infield dirt instead of the outfield grass (knowing his arm is not as strong), but would still have likely gotten to the ball, and from the dirt would have had a very good chance of making the throw in time to get Polanco.

 

The marginal difference is not worth keeping Uribe if we could get SF to part with Vizquel.

I disagree. IMO, the fact that Uribe DID range that far and DID make an awesome strong throw, AND he's not even 100% yet, makes me feel better about him than Vizquel. I think there is no comparison offensively. Uribe is better.

[Kyyle23]

Okay, I looked.  I agree that Vizquel (and very few other SS) could not have made a throw from that far.  But Uribe didn't have to range that far to get to the ball.  The reason the throw was so far was because he started the play in the outfield grass.

 

 

Can someone look at this and tell me that Uribe started on the outfield grass? I have a hard time believing that Uribe would position himself on the outfield grass with the winning run on 3rd. My work server prevents me from looking at the replay, i am working on memory from last night.

[Rowand44]

Ugh, who gives a damn when you're hitting 50+ homers and walking 100+ times?

 

I can care less about the strikeouts.  He's a top ten offensive player.  Maybe even top five.

Top 5 player in what--His division?? I like Dunn but until he can hit over .245 I don't think you can consider him a top 5 offensive player but maybe that's just me.

[SoxFan1]

Can someone look at this and tell me that Uribe started on the outfield grass?  I have a hard time believing that Uribe would position himself on the outfield grass with the winning run on 3rd. My work server prevents me from looking at the replay, i am working on memory from last night.

I'm pretty sure he didn't start off in the outfield grass. I recall Hawk saying how Ozzie brought the infield in and how Polanco could easily bloop one over the infielders. Uribe had to range back and to his right, plant, and make a strong throw and he did. Amazing play. Probably the best of the season so far.

[ZoomSlowik]

I doubt the proposed Schmidt/Vizquel deal would work given what the Giants are demanding for Schmidt alone. It sounds like they're looking for two major league pitchers, which is pretty ridiculous. I don't know why any competitor would give them two starting pitchers for one that has struggled most of the year (I laughed out loud when Silva and Garland were mentioned). My guess is they're trying to rip off a team desperate for pitching at the deadline, and if they don't get something really good, they'll just keep him and try to compete once Bonds gets back next year.

 

As for the resurfacing Chavez thing, I'd love to see that happen, although I'm not a fan of B-Mac going. I would think he'd want a hitting prospect given the guys he acquired last year and their current lineup, like Anderson, or maybe Fields. I know we don't want to take out Crede's D, but we don't lose much going to Chavez, if anything (sounds wierd saying that a 5-time gold glover is a drop off, doesn't it?). And I don't think the money would be that big an issue with Konerko potentially gone in the offseason.

 

And on the whole word-twisting comment, I think everyone has either done that or had it happen to them. I think I've been the victim at least 10 times in this thread.

[Kyyle23]

I'm pretty sure he didn't start off in the outfield grass. I recall Hawk saying how Ozzie brought the infield in and how Polanco could easily bloop one over the infielders. Uribe had to range back and to his right, plant, and make a strong throw and he did. Amazing play. Probably the best of the season so far.

 

thats what I remembered. just checking.

[SoxFan1]

thats what I remembered.  just checking.

Yeah, Im 99% sure that is what happened. Why would you play all the way back on the grass with the winning run on 3rd?