The Gigantic all encompassing TRADE THREAD

[southsideirish]

Scouting Report

 

2004 Season

Jason Schmidt had two seasons. The first was a Cy Young Award campaign over the first four-plus months. The second was a disappointing, injury-plagued August and September. Schmidt was 15-4 with a 2.52 ERA on August 17, a heavy favorite to win his first Cy Young, when he hurt his right groin in a start against Montreal. Though not at full strength, he returned after an 11-day layoff, later admitting he wasn't ready to come back. Houston's Roger Clemens won the Cy Young, with Schmidt finishing a disappointing fourth. Clemens admitted when he won the award that Schmidt "was the Cy Young race" before he was injured.

 

 

Pitching

Many players call Schmidt the most feared starter in the National League. He not only throws hard and has a nasty slider, but he has developed a changeup that is among the best in the game. Rather than nibbling at the corners as he did earlier in his career in Pittsburgh, Schmidt comes at hitters with a fastball clocked as high as 98 MPH. Schmidt had a 12-game winning streak from April 26 to July 17 in which he established himself as the top starter in baseball. He threw two one-hitters during the streak, each against high-powered offenses (Cubs, Red Sox).

 

 

Defense & Hitting

If there is a drawback in Schmidt's game, it's his fielding. His 6-foot-5 frame and high-energy delivery put him at a disadvantage with the glove. He committed three errors last season. An elbow injury in 2003 hindered Schmidt at the plate. He has four homers in his career, however, with 17 RBI. Although at times he can look awkward at the plate, he has sneaky power.

 

OR

 

Scouting Report

 

2004 Season

What happened to the Barry Zito magic in 2004? Had the league simply figured him out? Were hitters sitting on his curve? Was he hurt? Was he tired? Did he miss former pitching coach Rick Peterson? There were no easy answers, as Zito struggled for most of the year. Although Zito was a bit better during the second half, 2004 has to be considered a disappointment for a pitcher who traditionally has been a dominant force after the All-Star break.

 

 

Pitching

It is no secret that Zito does not overpower anyone. His fastball, at best, clocks at 89 MPH, though he does have a solid change. But Zito lives and dies by his wicked 12-to-6 curve. Throwing it for strikes didn't come as easy in 2004, and Zito fell behind hitters more often and was hit a lot more. Near midseason, Zito added a two-seam fastball that fades from hitters, and that aided him during the second half.

 

 

Defense

Zito wields a good-enough glove, and he has handled between 36-45 total chances in each of the past four seasons. He did make a pair of errors last year. After allowing 23 steals in 2001, his first full season in the majors, Zito has been better at holding baserunners in check.

 

GIVE ME JASON SCHMIDT!

[SoxFan1]

Schmidt has more control than Zito IMO and that slurve is sickening. Zito hangs too many pitches for me to like him in the Cell. Besides, Scmidt would look too awesome in a Sox uni!

[GreatScott82]

I'll take Zito, Schmidt, Oswalt, or Burnett. It would be nice if El-duque just would stay healthy, but if we can add another starter we can use El-duque out of the pen and as a spot starter (kind of like what Glendon Rusch does for the sCrUBS). Should be an interesting few weeks.....

But if KW doesn't acquire a big name- i wouldn't be too upset, after all- we are 50-24.

[SoxFan1]

It's scary what our record might be if we acquire a big-name pitcher. 50-24 without one of them. And it's not like we would be giving up any major league talent right now. BMac has contributed to 2 wins, Anderson has to none, Sweeney to None, Marte to very few. Schmidt, Oswalt, or Burnett = a better Sox team.

[nitetrain8601]

Why even compare us to Boston. They have the best hitting lineup in the majors. There is not one easy out in the entire lineup. In order for us to beat them our pitching has to be head and shoulders abover theirs, not just a little bit better. At this time I would consider the Count just a little bit better than Miller or Wakefield. They also have David Wells and Bronson Arroyo. Either one of those guys could be as good or better than the Count. Boston can flat out hit. We are built around pitching, so we can't afford a bad game from the Count. Boston can afford one of thier pitchers to get lit up because they can score tons of runs.

 

Again, you ignore the fact that Contreras probably won't be pitching in the games unless we are up 3-1 in any series(which there's only 2 possible scenarios of if someone is way too injured to play). Schmidt is not needed. I can't people are actually debating this.

[Wedge]

As a number of other posters have concluded along with me, the only pitcher we should trade significant prospects (such as McCarthy and Anderson) for is one that will significantly improve our World Series chances. The only one that comes close to fitting that bill is a HEALTHY Jason Schmidt. That said, it is fairly questionable if he is in fact healthy enough for a stretch run at a pennant and if can in fact contribute in a significant fashion given the current make-up of the club.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Jun 28, 2005 -> 10:04 PM)

Again, you ignore the fact that Contreras probably won't be pitching in the games unless we are up 3-1 in any series(which there's only 2 possible scenarios of if someone is way too injured to play). Schmidt is not needed. I can't people are actually debating this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I am not ignoring the fact that we are a much weaker hitting team than Boston. We need to be lights out pitching. It is great that Garland looks like he has turned the corner this year, but the fact is this is the first time it looks like he has figured things out. Schmidt is proven. Give me Buehrle, Schmidt, and Garcia against anyone else in the playoffs and I think we win. I feel very good with our chances with those top 3 than anything else we can throw out there today.

 

Is it possible that Schmidt is not needed and Garland, Contreras, or El Duque can get the job done. Of course it is. However, I would rather take my chances with Jason Schimdt than any of those 3. What are we giving up anyway? Prospects? Prospects and a weak hitting third baseman for a chance at the WS? DO IT AND DO IT NOW!!!!!!!! We can always get more prospects.

[SoxFan1]

All I can say is that if you guys sit back, think hard about the trade deadline, and look back at the feeling you get when KW makes a big trade. Now think of that with the Sox getting a PREMIERE pitcher in their run to the WORLD MOTHERf***ING SERIES.....HELL YEAH!

[Frank the Tank 35]

I'll say it again, all prospects are suspects till they prove otherwise. Who cares about prospects? Sure if you have the time to invest them. Look how long it took Garland to develop. Pitchers that develop overnight into dominant forces, like Prior, are few and far in between. BMac may be a good pitcher one day, but probably not that dominant and not for a few years. Besides, it's not like the Sox have a great record of drafting dominant pitchers lately... who exactly have we groomed besides Buehrle in the past decade? Buehrle wasn't even a top pick either, we kinda got lucky. Position players you have a little more leniancy with as a team could afford to have a 8th or 9th place hitter batting .250/.260. Playoff contending teams don't have the luxury of letting their 5th starter go out and bomb every time he's out there. Not on a team that is supposed to be based around pitching and defense especially. If the Sox were to add one of these top pitchers, give up anyone in the minors, who cares? Besides injury risk, which would apply to many pitchers anyway, you KNOW you are getting a top quality pitcher. You DO NOT KNOW that with any prospect. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you have to save money, blah blah blah... SCREW IT! Do we wanna win it all this year? Hell yeah. Screw the prospects, give me the allstars. After almost 90 years of waiting, do you want to blow another shot at a WSC? But hey, if we keep these prospects then we could win.... sometime in the next century??? None of these prospects are going to be immediate help even next year except maybe a bench player here or a relief pitcher there. That's it. If you're making the argument that you'd rather see the Sox trade for a relief pitcher or a 3b rather than a starter, well that's fine and acceptable. Stop the man-love for prospects.

[beck72]

You know, what really hamstrings us here is the Contreras trade and to a lesser extent the El Duque signing.  Because we're on the hook for $12 million for the two of them this year and next, we really can't make a move to improve our starters without trying to unload one or both of them.  But who would take either of them? 

 

Face it, we may be stuck trying to make the best with our Cuban starters, but I don't see that as all bad.  Contreras really can have great outings.  And El Duque, if he can be used sparingly until October, might turn in a gem or two. 

 

I guess, all in all, I'm on the fence.

 

My thoughts on getting an "ace" in the Schmidt, Zito mold [both of whom who'd also be locked up for 2006, or at the least, could be traded in the offseason for very good prospects like the ones they traded for--the world series attempt failed, and the sox want to keep contreras and El Duque, so they could still deal one of these guys, not a 3 month rental--but I think the sox would rather not deal with both Jose's and Orlando's headaches, yet they seem a package deal]----

 

What happens if one of the sox big three get hurt? Or Jon gets back to a mid 4 era? Chances are all 3 can't keep up this pace for the entire season. They are bound to have a let down of some sort. Having a guy who could step into the #1 or #2 spot in the rotation wouldn't be a luxury in this case. It could be a necessity.

 

Too many things can happen from July 31 to the October 1st. If a top pitcher is available, it makes sense to get the best player available. Seeing how the sox don't need a position player, and have options for the bullpen [esp as a SP would drop into the playoff pen] they could use resources of minor leaguers to build the best SP staff possible.

[ZoomSlowik]

Starting staff ERA of all potential playoff teams:

 

Baltimore- 4.45

Boston- 4.45

Cleveland- 4.12

LA- 3.61

Minnesota- 3.91

Yankees- 4.76

Texas- 4.65

 

White Sox- 3.67

 

And you have to consider that B-Mac drastically inflates that number and LA's is down a bit because of some good starts from Escobar, who may or may not be back. Notice that Boston's is very high, meaning even Schilling might not be able to drop that average a ton.

[SoxFan1]

Which LA is that? LAD or LAA? Just wondering but I'm guessing the Angels. But still, Contreras and El Duque have been very bad and/or inconsistent lately. Schmidt = Consistency and Ace.

[Kalapse]

Which LA is that? LAD or LAA? Just wondering but I'm guessing the Angels. But still, Contreras and El Duque have been very bad and/or inconsistent lately. Schmidt = Consistency and Ace.

The Angels

[beck72]

Exact point I've been trying to make all day. You're basically mortgaging a future for 2 starts max in the playoffs. Beck72, you don't consider Buehrle an ace?? I certainly do. El Duque is just needed for 2 starts against the Twins really and Contreras just needs to finish the season.

 

I'm not willing to spend tons of money and future for us to have to bench one of our aces for the most part in the playoffs. Look at Houston. They made a damn good run with Rocket and Oswalt and Backe who is far from an ace. St. Louis had a worse off pitching staff than that.

 

Burnett as much as I'd love to have him and Schmidt just aren't needed or even close to being a priority. I'd say bullpen(lights out closer because I think Hermy is coming back to earth) and hitting(3rd base in particular) are much more needed than another ace.

 

What I said is it is reasonable to expect a drop off from one if not more than one of the sox big three right now--MB, Jon and Freddy. Both Jon and MB are all stars. MB is the Sox ace. But it's a long season, SP's can get hurt, lose their effectiveness etc.

 

If the sox can add another ace, w/o hurting the short term and future makeup of the club, I'd say yes, make a trade. I don't see a big name reliever being available [like a Lidge or Billy Wagner], or a bat. Why not use some resources for a SP who the sox can and will use?

[nitetrain8601]

I am not ignoring the fact that we are a much weaker hitting team than Boston. We need to be lights out pitching. It is great that Garland looks like he has turned the corner this year, but the fact is this is the first time it looks like he has figured things out. Schmidt is proven. Give me Buehrle, Schmidt, and Garcia against anyone else in the playoffs and I think we win. I feel very good with our chances with those top 3 than anything else we can throw out there today.

 

Is it possible that Schmidt is not needed and Garland, Contreras, or El Duque can get the job done. Of course it is. However, I would rather take my chances with Jason Schimdt than any of those 3. What are we giving up anyway? Prospects? Prospects and a weak hitting third baseman for a chance at the WS? DO IT AND DO IT NOW!!!!!!!! We can always get more prospects.

 

Schmidt's only had 2 starts in the playoffs. 1 game he gave up 4ER in 5.1IP and no runs in 9IP. So I wouldn't say he's that much more of a for sure thing than Buehrle, Garland or Garcia. Again, you are basically going to be paying for a pitcher to start no more than 2 games. You think Ozzie is going to start Schmidt over Garland, Garcia or Buehrle who have had 100X's the year Schmidt has had? Hell no. That's not happening. Schmidt would be a 10 million dollar bullpen arm in the playoffs. No need for that.

[nitetrain8601]

What I said is it is reasonable to expect a drop off from one if not more than one of the sox big three right now--MB, Jon and Freddy. Both Jon and MB are all stars. MB is the Sox ace. But it's a long season, SP's can get hurt, lose their effectiveness etc.

 

If the sox can add another ace, w/o hurting the short term and future makeup of the club, I'd say yes, make a trade. I don't see a big name reliever being available [like a Lidge or Billy Wagner], or a bat. Why not use some resources for a SP who the sox can and will use?

 

Name me 1 team that has 4 aces right now, or even after trades will have 4 aces on their staff in the American League or even the National League.

Edited June 28, 2005 by nitetrain8601

[beck72]

Schmidt's only had 2 starts in the playoffs. 1 game he gave up 4ER in 5.1IP and no runs in 9IP. So I wouldn't say he's that much more of a for sure thing than Buehrle, Garland or Garcia. Again, you are basically going to be paying for a pitcher to start no more than 2 games. You think Ozzie is going to start Schmidt over Garland, Garcia or Buehrle who have had 100X's the year Schmidt has had? Hell no. That's not happening. Schmidt would be a 10 million dollar bullpen arm in the playoffs. No need for that.

 

Ozzie would go with the hottest hand for game #1. Probably Buehrle even if he struggled as he's so consistent. If a healthy Schmidt wasn't needed, the sox other SP's would have to be dominating. It'd be a great problem to have--too many good arms. [and the $10 mill would be for 2006, which I think the sox would keep, and trade Contreras as the FA class is pretty weak]

[beck72]

Name me 1 team that has 4 aces right now, or even after trades will have 4 aces on their staff in the American League or even the National League.

 

Do the Sox have 3 aces? Right now I count 2 guys having great years, Jon and MB. Freddy has pitched very well at times.

 

The sox have gotten this far based on their pitching. In order to continue their success, adding to the staff [before an injury/ ineffectiveness comes after July 31st] now makes sense, IMO.

[witesoxfan]

Schmidt's only had 2 starts in the playoffs.

 

Or 5.

 

2 in the NLDS, 1 in the NLCS, and 2 in the World Series.

[SoxFan1]

Its very simple.

 

Buehrle, Schmidt, Garland, Garcia, Contreras > Beuhrle, Garcia, Garland, Contreras, El Duque

[Wedge]

Name me 1 team that has 4 aces right now, or even after trades will have 4 aces on their staff in the American League or even the National League.

 

The Yankees

 

Which LA is that? LAD or LAA? Just wondering but I'm guessing the Angels. But still, Contreras and El Duque have been very bad and/or inconsistent lately. Schmidt = Consistency and Ace.

 

Not this season...

 

Look, if we can can rip off the Giants, I'm all for getting Schmidt. I just don't think that's going to happen and I don't know if it's worth giving up current major league players.

[nitetrain8601]

The Yankees

Not this season...

 

Look, if we can can rip off the Giants, I'm all for getting Schmidt.  I just don't think that's going to happen and I don't know if it's worth giving up current major league players.

 

Exactly. He would be a luxury and if we could get him for cheap, then hell yeah, but there are other things I'm looking for before starting pitching on this team.

[SoxFan1]

The Yankees

Not this season...

 

Look, if we can can rip off the Giants, I'm all for getting Schmidt.  I just don't think that's going to happen and I don't know if it's worth giving up current major league players.

The only current MLB talent we might begiving up is Marte in which we could replace him with Guardado?

[Wedge]

The only current MLB talent we might begiving up is Marte in which we could replace him with Guardado?

 

Who are we giving up for Guardado? Doesn't Guardado's rotator cuff injury on his throwing arm concern you?

[nitetrain8601]

Do the Sox have 3 aces? Right now I count 2 guys having great years, Jon and MB. Freddy has pitched very well at times.

 

The sox have gotten this far based on  their pitching. In order to continue their success, adding to the staff [before an injury/ ineffectiveness comes after July 31st] now makes sense, IMO.

 

Okay, name me teams with 3 aces(with realistic shots at the playoffs). I guess if you want to count the Cubs and that's pretty much it. Bullpens are what you need in the postseason and right now, ours isn't that strong at all. It's good, but not as good as everyone else's. We also don't have an as good 3B as the rest of the teams who have a chance at the playoffs. That's coming from someone who loves Crede.