The Gigantic all encompassing TRADE THREAD

[VAfan]

The white sox will not trade for him so i don't understand all of this vizquel talk. If we really wanted him we could have had him in the off-season without giving up any prospects at all. The third year was the deal breaker for us, as it should have. If vizquel only had one more year left on the contract i would be all for it... but he doesn't. I would not trade uribe for him in any sort of deal, we would be losing 13 years right there. Even if we did trade for vizquel majikly we would then have a back-up infielder making two million plus.

 

Yes we could have had him, but signed Uribe for 3 years instead. I bet KW is rethinking that decision now that Uribe's hitting has returned to pitiful form.

 

I'm not suggesting this trade is a slam dunk, but it does give us a more balanced offensive team because it gives us a SS who can hit righties (Vizquel) while keeping one who can hit lefties (Ozuna). Together they will make a lot fewer outs than Uribe/Ozuna. The OBP differential for right handed pitchers between Vizquel and Uribe is .166. That's like having Frank Thomas's OBP instead of Joe Crede's.

[Rowand44]

Yes we could have had him, but signed Uribe for 3 years instead.  I bet KW is rethinking that decision now that Uribe's hitting has returned to pitiful form. 

 

I'm not suggesting this trade is a slam dunk, but it does give us a more balanced offensive team because it gives us a SS who can hit righties (Vizquel) while keeping one who can hit lefties (Ozuna).  Together they will make a lot fewer outs than Uribe/Ozuna.  The OBP differential for right handed pitchers between Vizquel and Uribe is .166.  That's like having Frank Thomas's OBP instead of Joe Crede's.

I bet you Kenny hasn't thought twice about that deal.

[Kalapse]

I bet you Kenny hasn't thought twice about that deal.

Agreed, it was a steal.

[ZoomSlowik]

Yes we could have had him, but signed Uribe for 3 years instead.  I bet KW is rethinking that decision now that Uribe's hitting has returned to pitiful form. 

 

I'm not suggesting this trade is a slam dunk, but it does give us a more balanced offensive team because it gives us a SS who can hit righties (Vizquel) while keeping one who can hit lefties (Ozuna).  Together they will make a lot fewer outs than Uribe/Ozuna.  The OBP differential for right handed pitchers between Vizquel and Uribe is .166.  That's like having Frank Thomas's OBP instead of Joe Crede's.

 

Yeah, I'm sure he's rethinking signing a 38 year old shortstop for 3 years and 12 million instead of signing a 25 year old shortstop for a lot less money, after only half a season.

[CWSGuy406]

Top 5 player in what--His division??  I like Dunn but until he can hit over .245 I don't think you can consider him a top 5 offensive player but maybe that's just me.

 

Name some guys better than him offensively...

 

Pujols, Bonds, Manny, Ortiz. And then there's a bunch of guys who are right around where he's at, like Helton.

 

What does BA mean? Let's see, Dunn gets on-base at a real good rate, and when he hits the ball, he homers or doubles. I can give a damn what his BA is when he has a 150+ OPS+...

[Rowand44]

Name some guys better than him offensively...

 

Pujols, Bonds, Manny, Ortiz.  And then there's a bunch of guys who are right around where he's at, like Helton.

 

What does BA mean?  Let's see, Dunn gets on-base at a real good rate, and when he hits the ball, he homers or doubles.  I can give a damn what his BA is when he has a 150+ OPS+...

Vlad, Tejada are for sure ahead of him imo. There are a lot of other guys I'd rather have then Dunn, I personally just think you have to hit higher then .245 to be considered a top offensive player even with his obp. But hell when do we ever agree anyways. Agree to disagree

[CWSGuy406]

Vizquel has the added dimension of being a lefty, a tremendous bunter, someone who can steal a base (13 this year out of 20 attempts), and he can work the count and draw a walk.  In other words, a perfect player for Ozzie-ball.

 

13/20 SB means he's not adding much. In fact, it means he probably shouldn't be doing it so often -- less than 75% success rate.

 

Stealing bases is not an asset for Vizquel. And his defense is much worse than Uribe's, 3E8 posted the numbers for season's prior.

[CWSGuy406]

Offensively? Dunn worse than Tejada? You're kidding, right?

 

Going off of career averages, you lose almost .100 OPS % points with Tejada, about .050 OBP % points, and .040 SLG% points.

 

Overall player, sure, you take Tejada 'cause he's a stud on defense. But offensively, not a chance.

 

Vlad, yeah. He's up there. I was going off the top of my head, don't know why I forgot about him.

 

Even so, what does AVG mean, again? A guy isn't great because he doesn't have a good batting average?

[qwerty]

Offensively?  Dunn worse than Tejada?  You're kidding, right?

 

Going off of career averages, you lose almost .100 OPS % points with Tejada, about .050 OBP % points, and .040 SLG% points.

 

Overall player, sure, you take Tejada 'cause he's a stud on defense.  But offensively, not a chance. 

 

Vlad, yeah.  He's up there.  I was going off the top of my head, don't know why I forgot about him.

 

Even so, what does AVG mean, again?  A guy isn't great because he doesn't have a good batting average?

 

A guy isn't great when he cannot crack over .200 with men on base.

[Rowand44]

Offensively?  Dunn worse than Tejada?  You're kidding, right?

 

Going off of career averages, you lose almost .100 OPS % points with Tejada, about .050 OBP % points, and .040 SLG% points.

 

Overall player, sure, you take Tejada 'cause he's a stud on defense.  But offensively, not a chance. 

 

Vlad, yeah.  He's up there.  I was going off the top of my head, don't know why I forgot about him.

 

Even so, what does AVG mean, again?  A guy isn't great because he doesn't have a good batting average?

Like I said this is just a difference of opinion but Tejada is an rbi machine he's a .300 hitter and overall as a hitter I would rather have Tejada. Dunn I like because he's a lefty power hitter but I know for damn sure he'd drive me nuts cause he is an all or nothing hitter. Getting on base or not you got to be able to hit your way on base at times but that's jmo.

[Frank the Tank 35]

...Cabrera, Tex, Soriano, Tejada, A-Rod, Guerrero, Abreu, D Lee, C Lee, A Jones... just a short list of people that are better and that I'd rather have on my team. There's plenty of other people I'd rather spend my $$ on too. For a team that likes to run the bases, it's harder for a guy to move runners along if he's striking out all the time. Dunn may help you win the HR category in your rotisserie fantasy league, but he's not gonna help the Sox the way they're configured now.

 

On another note, all these people who keep bringing up the Chavez talk has got me thinking. I know everyone's tired of hearing about rumor and speculation, but I think we're going about it the wrong way. Billy Beane is all about reloading for the immediate future. The way he's got his minor leagues stacked is a testament to that. If we base a deal for Chavez around Crede, that degrades their 3b spot. Obviously we have to make that up in another area. You can never have enough of pitching, but if anyone doesn't need more, it's the A's. They'll probably be trading away one of their veteran outfielders, but they have Nick Swisher stepping in. Bobby Crosby is their heir apparent at SS. I thought maybe they'd want someone to replace the aging Hatteburg (he's 35), but they just brought up their hot 1B prospect Dan Johnson. Then I thought maybe they'd want to get rid of the underperforming and overpaid Jason Kendall for someone younger and cheaper. They have 2 of the top 20 catching prospects in their system. Their one weakness may be at 2B. They aren't really stacked in the minors with 2b'ers. They thought Ellis would come up big, but he's injured this year and really hasn't been anything special. Scutaro had his chance. They brought in Ginter, but he's played horribly. As I don't think they'd accept Willie, and we won't trade Iguchi, maybe we should look for a 3rd team in the deal. Two teams I thought were possibilities who had extra 2b talent. The Pirates are always unloading. They have plenty of infielders and maybe they'd move Mackowiak in the right trade. Another more conceivable trade partner would be Arizona. They were scouting the Sox relievers. They have an extra infielder in the young Alex Cintron. He's hitting around .300 this year in limited playing time. He's not doing as well as his breakout year in 2003, but he's doing better than his "sophomore" slump year last year. Not only is he young, but he's poised to get better in the immediate future. The only thing is that he hasn't shown any power the past year and a half. In 2003 he showed alot of promise in the power #'s for a 2b (roids?).

 

So as long as everyone's speculating, here's my proposal:

Sox give reliever to 'Zona, give Crede + OF (Anderson maybe?) prospect to Oakland

Arizona sends Cintron to A's

A's send Chavez to Sox

 

If that whole BMac + midlevel prospect for Burnett is true, do it immediately.

Move Duque to the pen.

I crap my pants in excitement.

 

Yes people, it's just speculation. If you feel dumber for reading it, take it to the complaints dept.

[DBAHO]

Why would Oakland want Joe Crede AND Alex Cintron when they already have Bobby Crosby, Marcus Scutaro, Mark Ellis and Keith Ginter already?

[Rowand44]

Why would Oakland want Joe Crede AND Alex Cintron when they already have Bobby Crosby, Marcus Scutaro, Mark Ellis and Keith Ginter already?

Because........

[Kalapse]

There's no way in hell I'm reading all of that.

 

I did however read the trade purposal and all I have to say is ROTFLMFAO.

[Frank the Tank 35]

Like I said, it's speculation. But of all their positions, really that's all they need. They're not stacked in the minors outfield-wise so I included the OF prospect. Maybe they think out of Ellis, Scutaro, and Ginter somebody's going to pan out... but up to this point none of them have.

[DBAHO]

Like I said, it's speculation.  But of all their positions, really that's all they need.  They're not stacked in the minors outfield-wise so I included the OF prospect.  Maybe they think out of Ellis, Scutaro, and Ginter somebody's going to pan out... but up to this point none of them have.

So would Alex Cintron automatically solve all of their 2nd base problems? Why isn't he playing everyday for Arizona then?

 

Oakland wants bullpen help too BTW. No way they'd settle for a package of Crede, Cintron and Anderson for Mr. Chavez.

[Frank the Tank 35]

I mean flame away, I never said it was going to happen. It's just that Ellis and Scutaro have been .250/.260 hitters at best and so far in the AL Ginter is at a buck something.

[Frank the Tank 35]

Craig Counsell, the heart of the team, is basically playing everyday, and his main position is 2b. Cintron is basically spelling him and Glaus while splitting time with Clayton at SS. I believe Cintron's main position is 2b though, making Clayton the better defensive player at SS.

[Kalapse]

Craig Counsell, the heart of the team, is basically playing everyday, and his main position is 2b.  Cintron is basically spelling him and Glaus while splitting time with Clayton at SS.  I believe Cintron's main position is 2b though, making Clayton the better defensive player at SS.

Alex Cintron is a SS. He's played 262 games at SS, 38 at 3B and 55 at 2B.

 

If he's not good enough to start over Clayton then he's not good enough to start over anyone on Oakland.

Edited July 1, 2005 by Kalapse

[DBAHO]

I mean flame away, I never said it was going to happen.  It's just that Ellis and Scutaro have been .250/.260 hitters at best and so far in the AL Ginter is at a buck something.

I'm not flaming, I'm just asking you a question to try and see your logic. My point is, Cintron was an everyday player last year and he didn't produce. He's probably nothing more than a utility guy. If the A's are going to upgrade, they'll want to get someone with better production.

[Frank the Tank 35]

Oakland wants bullpen help too BTW. No way they'd settle for a package of Crede, Cintron and Anderson for Mr. Chavez.

 

I guess if Oakland is going for it this year and wants relief pitching, it would make it harder altogether to pry Chavez. Next year they definitely do not need relief pitching though. The only reason they may want it now is because of their pitchers on the DL. If we have to send a relief pitcher their way, fine. Beane may say he's going for it, but honestly, I think even he realizes that the way the A's are now, he'd be lucky just to get into the playoffs let alone advance. The A's, even IF they made the playoffs, WOULD NOT advance. He's gotta be thinking about next year already.

 

I know a lot of people are down on Crede (myself included), but he still has the "potential" tag. He may never reach that potential, but it's obvious he has it. He does hit 20+ homers and has shown he can hit .275. If the A's think he can do that, they're only losing 10 homers a year, maybe a few points off the BA, and nothing on defense. He'll be a free agent after this year, but how much will he be able to sign for? 3-4 mil a year is the most I'd say he could get even with Boras. 6-7 mil less per year for 10 less homers? plus 40 BA points better at 2b? add a top OF prospect (and maybe more)? It's not as far-fetched as everyone will undoubtedly flame me for saying this believes.

[Frank the Tank 35]

Actually this year Counsell has been the everyday starter for Arizona at 2B. In Milwaukee last year he was mainly a SS. Cintron has played 2b, 3b, and ss... mostly ss though.

[YASNY]

Joe Crede is not a free agent after this year.

[Kalapse]

Joe Crede is not a free agent after this year.

Arbitration rocks!

[YASNY]

Arbitration rocks!

 

I don't know how many times I have seen someone state that Crede was going to be a FA. I got tired of explaining it, so I now I just state the fact that he won't be one.