The Gigantic all encompassing TRADE THREAD

[AirScott]

If Toronto wants to rebuild why would they get rid of a guy that they are paying little for?  Especially if he's such a solid pitcher.

 

I just don't see this as a very appealing trade possibility.  Just another guy that we hope  can get it done.  I'd rather go for a guy that more than likely will get it done.  But that's just me. 

 

KW has done a great job putting this team together.  I trust that he will make the right move(s) to ensure we field a champion calibre team for the stretch.

we'd only be hoping for him to get a small job done. give El Duque an extra day off by starting in his place. come in a pitch 3 or 4 innings of a game with a 5 run differential. Lilly has never been a mainstay on any team, so a rebuilding team (or any team) would be mostly indifferent to trading him. and $3.1 million isn't exactly the league minimum, either.

[Guest JimH]

It is tough to say why Toronto has made Lilly available, one guess is he might be arbitration eligible after this year and he may have said he doesn't want to do a long term deal in Toronto.

 

On the surface it doesn't make sense strictly from a personnel standpoint. He's not making a ton and he is a serviceable starter, a #4 or #5 guy, possibly a #3 on a lower rung team.

 

But, he apparantly is available because the super scouts from several teams have been tracking him. Usually that means a team has called Toronto and the GM there says he'll listen to offers on Lilly.

 

Again, all speculation but it does seem to fit. A hockey buddy of mine who lives outside of Toronto told me there have been several media (radio) reports up there that the Sox are after Lilly hot and heavy, that KW again wants to strike early. I do not know how much validity this holds but it does make sense to me. It's very possible that the really top pitchers are simply not available, so they are looking at 2nd tier guys like Lilly.

[BigSqwert]

we'd only be hoping for him to get a small job done.  give El Duque an extra day off by starting in his place.  come in a pitch 3 or 4 innings of a game with a 5 run differential.  Lilly has never been a mainstay on any team, so a rebuilding team (or any team) would be mostly indifferent to trading him.  and $3.1 million isn't exactly the league minimum, either.

 

Wow AirScott I'm starting to think that you'll start a Lilly fanclub in addition to your 'Too many fanclubs' fanclub.

 

I guess if we did pick him up in a trade it wouldn't be the worst thing but it just isn't a sexy trade for me. I guess my aspirations for this year are too high. I want to go for the jugular and leave everyone in the dust.

[AirScott]

I would try to get a guy like Baez from Tampa or Guardado from Seattle.  Chavez would be a nice addition but I don't see Crede getting traded this year.

well, a closer would be nice, but Tampa's GM doesn't trade much and it would take a lot to get Baez (who's been pitching well, for the most part) from Tampa without Lou Piniella suffering a stroke. I'd like to see KW get Guardado, but I'm holding out for Houston to lose enough from here through July 30th so they might think about trading Lidge.

[Guest JimH]

I would try to get a guy like Baez from Tampa or Guardado from Seattle.  Chavez would be a nice addition but I don't see Crede getting traded this year.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

See, now Baez or Guardado I do not understand. Guardado has a partially torn rotator cuff, that scares the hell out of me. Baez used to wet his pants when closing for Cleveland, and he gets wild in a hurry.

 

Personally I like the idea of a swingman type guy, preferably lefthanded, who can be a 5th starter when El Duque is inevitably hurt, or be the long man if he isn't. Frankly I would like to have a more proven guy fill in than Brandon M. Nothing against Brandon but this team has a chance (emphasis: chance) to do something special. Just my preference but I would prefer something more proven. Lilly has at least pitched in the playoffs.

 

One worry ... lefthanded hitters have been drilling him this year. But that's why you have scouts, it's their job to evaluate. It could be something very fixable or maybe he's partially the victim of some bad luck. Not making excuses for him but I do know he's a strikeout guy with good stuff.

[AirScott]

Wow AirScott I'm starting to think that you'll start a Lilly fanclub in addition to your 'Too many fanclubs' fanclub.

 

I guess if we did pick him up in a trade it wouldn't be the worst thing but it just isn't a sexy trade for me.  I guess my aspirations for this year are too high.  I want to go for the jugular and leave everyone in the dust.

first and foremost...that's not a bad idea. I'd have to find a few more members before I do, though.

 

anyhoo, I'm glad you see it my way, because I am hoping KW goes out and picks up a huge bat and a bonafide closer before July 31.

[BigSqwert]

Guardado has a partially torn rotator cuff, that scares the hell out of me. 

 

I didn't know that. Maybe not such a good idea to pursue him.

[AirScott]

See, now Baez or Guardado I do not understand.  Guardado has a partially torn rotator cuff, that scares the hell out of me.  Baez used to wet his pants when closing for Cleveland, and he gets wild in a hurry.

Guardado has huge cajones. I'm not opposed to picking him up because he could get the job done if you cut off 3 of his fingers.

[Guest JimH]

Guardado has huge cajones.  I'm not opposed to picking him up because he could get the job done if you cut off 3 of his fingers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Possibly. He also has one year left on a huge contract. Doesn't affect this year, but the Sox always plan those sorts of things. The big contract for 2006 plus the injury risk ... personally I do not like that sort of risk.

[CWSGuy406]

I agree completely with Jim's post.

 

Going for the jugular is one thing, and you're kidding yourself if you think that Williams isn't going to do every in his power to do that. But that doesn't mean do something stupid.

 

The guys you mentioned -- Baez, Guardado -- would adding either of those guys make us that much better than getting a guy like Lilly? You make it seem like we'd be getting an Eric Gagne back. Both are good, but neither are spectacular to the point that they'd make us clear cut AL champs -- at least, IMO.

[Dam8610]

Those are stats from this year.  Composed of what, 15-20 starts?  Mercy...

 

Off the top of my head, Lilly is right around a career 4.00 ERA pitcher.  His ERA+ has been right around league average.  For the right price, he's the guy this team needs.  Cheat and Jim (among others) have been calling it for months, we need a swingman who can fill in for the fifth starter's role, and help us in the 'pen.

 

Well, we've got 4 candidates on the team. Brandon McCarthy and Orlando Hernandez have been splitting the 5th spot for a while. Then there's Hermanson, who could be a spot starter if neccessary, but he's not likely to be since he's already in the closer's role. Which leads me to what I think is a very intruging possibility: Neal Cotts. He's done great this year, and he was a starter throughout his career in the minor leagues. I think he might actually be ready for a starter's role with your choice of McCarthy or Hernandez coming out of the pen. Personally, I'd take McCarthy from those two, because although he's struggled as a starter, he's been great in the first couple innings of every one of his starts. Also, I think coming out of the pen would take some mental pressure off of him and he might get more confident in his stuff, eventually leading to quicker development into a ML starter.

[AirScott]

No, No, and No.

 

5 words for you..........    Don't. f***. With. The.Pen.

If you want to make a trade to aquire someone, fine but don't take anyone out. Hermanson, while shaky the last few times out, has been a savior for us this season, and screwing with him now is a horrible idea. Same goes with Cotts. I give him the MVP award for the month of June. Guy is turing out to be a stud in the pen, don't screw with it. Oz also said he sees Cotts as a future closer rather than SP.

 

Lilly isn't going to cost us what Freddy did, think a little more than what Everret did.

if we were to acquire a bonafide closer (Lidge...hey, if Houston drops 24 of their next 32 before the deadline, Lidge could be dealt), I'm sure Hermanson would become our 8th inning guy without any fuss. I remember Hawk raving about him early in the year, saying he doesn't "b**** and moan" and Hermy will pitch anywhere they ask him to.

[Dam8610]

No, No, and No.

 

5 words for you..........    Don't. f***. With. The.Pen.

If you want to make a trade to aquire someone, fine but don't take anyone out. Hermanson, while shaky the last few times out, has been a savior for us this season, and screwing with him now is a horrible idea. Same goes with Cotts. I give him the MVP award for the month of June. Guy is turing out to be a stud in the pen, don't screw with it. Oz also said he sees Cotts as a future closer rather than SP.

 

Lilly isn't going to cost us what Freddy did, think a little more than what Everret did.

 

I remember another "future closer" about 15 years ago by the name of Curt Schilling. Anyone know what happened to him?

[AirScott]

I remember another "future closer" about 15 years ago by the name of Curt Schilling. Anyone know what happened to him?

I heard he won a World Series or two, and had a few 20 win seasons, but my source is sometimes unreliable.

[CWSGuy406]

I remember another "future closer" about 15 years ago by the name of Curt Schilling. Anyone know what happened to him?

 

Fine.

 

We'll explore that down the road. Why mess with what he's doing now? All that does is weaken our 'pen, and we'd have to stretch out Cotts -- which would take at least a month, right?

 

Same goes for Hermy. He could help us out, but why mess with the bullpen?

 

McCarthy -- I personally don't think he's ready. His fastball is straighter than Felix Diaz', and he's not throwing his changeup very much. I don't feel very confident handing him the ball in a pennant race.

 

And El Duque, I don't see how it affects him. If El Duque goes down, Lilly fills in. If he can only throw four-five innings, Lilly gives you the two-three that a "normal" starter would give you, if more, then that's fine too.

 

I'm not suggesting that they give up a top flight guy for Lilly, but one or two of C+ - B- (a little above average, in other words) prospects for him and I do it.

Edited June 27, 2005 by CWSGuy406

[Dam8610]

Fine. 

 

We'll explore that down the road.  Why mess with what he's doing now?  All that does is weaken our 'pen, and we'd have to stretch out Cotts -- which would take at least a month, right?

 

Well maybe, but if he could be as effective as a 5th starter, then there's no need to go out and waste prospects on a possible rental player or possible junk pitcher. I'd like to at least see this option explored before a trade is made.

 

Same goes for Hermy.  He could help us out, but why mess with the bullpen?

 

I didn't really suggest that he should be removed from the pen, but before the season, wasn't he brought in to be a reliever/spot starter? I was just pointing that out. NO WAY I want him out of the closer's role though.

 

McCarthy -- I personally don't think he's ready.  His fastball is straighter than Felix Diaz', and he's not throwing his changeup very much.  I don't feel very confident handing him the ball in a pennant race.

 

I know he's struggled in his starts, but the way he's pitched so far, I wouldn't be surprised at all if he had the same type of success that Cotts has had coming out of the pen this year. He always goes out there and does awesome in his first 1-3 innings, then starts giving it up as he goes deeper into the game. Well, if he's only pitching those first 1-3 innings each time he goes out there, he's going to be a lot more successful, plus he won't have to think about holding back and conserving energy if he's coming out of the pen, something that helps a lot of pitchers.

 

And El Duque, I don't see how it affects him.  If El Duque goes down, Lilly fills in.  If he can only throw four-five innings, Lilly gives you the two-three that a "normal" starter would give you, if more, then that's fine too.

 

I'm not suggesting that they give up a top flight guy for Lilly, but one or two of C+ - B- (a little above average, in other words) prospects for him and I do it.

 

If Duque is healthy and pitching well, he's one of the top 2 5th starters in MLB. However, he's already been on the DL twice this season, and depending on his health is obviously not the best of plans. That said, I'm all for a trade that Kenny and Ozzie think will help the club, but if you can find a replacement part from within your organization without much dropoff in production, why not use it and keep the C+ - B- prospect(s) that you would be inclined to trade for Lilly? After all, I'm sure Mike Piazza was at one point in time much less than a C+ - B- prospect. Probably a few other players as well, but that's the one that comes to mind quickly.

[CWSGuy406]

Dam, I respect your points -- disagree with some of them, but respect them.

 

I guess I'm not as confident as you are as far as McCarthy/Hermy/Cotts filling in, even if it's just for a start -- especially with Cotts. I didn't follow his minor league career, but this is the best I've ever seen him pitch. He has been dominant for a month or so now, and I don't want to touch that one bit.

 

I know I'm restating it, but I'm not as comfortable as you are with the guys we've talked about filling in, even if it is for a start.

[Southside hitmen]

With AJ Burnett being on the trading block would love to see the Sox get this guy...

[Southside hitmen]

The Florida Marlins are considering trading right-hander A.J. Burnett, a blockbuster move that would alter the pennant races in both leagues, The Sporting News has learned.

 

The Marlins are engaged in preliminary discussions about Burnett with the Orioles and a second, unidentified American League club. Their goal in trading Burnett, who will be a free agent at the end of the season, would be to obtain three major-league parts — a young starting pitcher, quality reliever and left-handed hitting outfielder.

[Rowand44]

The Florida Marlins are considering trading right-hander A.J. Burnett, a blockbuster move that would alter the pennant races in both leagues, The Sporting News has learned.

 

The Marlins are engaged in preliminary discussions about Burnett with the Orioles and a second, unidentified American League club. Their goal in trading Burnett, who will be a free agent at the end of the season, would be to obtain three major-league parts — a young starting pitcher, quality reliever and left-handed hitting outfielder.

Hmm an unidentified american league team, yeah that's us.

[Milkman delivers]

The Florida Marlins are considering trading right-hander A.J. Burnett, a blockbuster move that would alter the pennant races in both leagues, The Sporting News has learned.

 

The Marlins are engaged in preliminary discussions about Burnett with the Orioles and a second, unidentified American League club. Their goal in trading Burnett, who will be a free agent at the end of the season, would be to obtain three major-league parts — a young starting pitcher, quality reliever and left-handed hitting outfielder.

 

Wait, does that mean players that are already in the majors or guys that are just about there? Kind of like McCarthy, Bajenaru/Jenks, and Anderson or Sweeney (whichever one is lefty, I forget).....

[Kalapse]

The Florida Marlins are considering trading right-hander A.J. Burnett, a blockbuster move that would alter the pennant races in both leagues, The Sporting News has learned.

 

The Marlins are engaged in preliminary discussions about Burnett with the Orioles and a second, unidentified American League club. Their goal in trading Burnett, who will be a free agent at the end of the season, would be to obtain three major-league parts — a young starting pitcher, quality reliever and left-handed hitting outfielder.

1. Jon Adkins - Young Starting Pitcher0

2. Luis Vizcaino - Quality Reliever

3. Timo Perez - Left-handed hitting outfielder

 

1. Sean Tracey

2. Damaso Marte

3. Joe Borchard/Ryan Sweeney

 

1. Brandon McCarthy

2. Luis Vizcaino/Shingo Takatsu

3. Timo Perez/Joe Borchard

[Kalapse]

Or Mondo-Prospect Package:

 

1. McCarthy

2. Jenks/Baj

3. Sweeney

[Southside hitmen]

The Red Sox would like to add another starting pitcher and inquired about Burnett at the winter meetings last December. The Sox would have difficulty meeting the Marlins' exact needs, but could build a package that includes their top prospect, Double-A shortstop Hanley Ramirez, along with right-handed starter Bronson Arroyo.

 

Knowing the price will be high, any team that acquires Burnett, 28, would need to be confident that it could sign him long term. The Marlins, unlikely to retain Burnett, would prefer to trade him for immediate help than receive only draft picks if he departs as a free agent. Burnett threw a two-hit shutout against the Devil Rays on Sunday, but for all his talent, he's only 5-5 with a 3.14 ERA this season, 41-43 with a 3.78 ERA lifetime.

 

The Orioles, a team in search of a No. 1 starter, could prove a match for the Marlins if they are willing to give up either right-hander Daniel Cabrera or Hayden Penn, reliever Jorge Julio and outfielder Larry Bigbie, with the Marlins likely sending them outfielder Juan Encarnacion — another potential free agent — along with Burnett.

 

In recent years, however, the Orioles have shown great reluctance at acquiring potential free agents, passing on deals for first baseman Derrek Lee and right-hander Tim Hudson because they could not sign them to contract extensions before making the trades.

 

The Yankees also could get involved for Burnett if they were willing to trade setup man Tom Gordon and right-hander Chien-Ming Wang, a move that could do as much harm as good. The Tigers are another team that has expressed past interest in Burnett.

[Milkman delivers]

Or Mondo-Prospect Package:

 

1. McCarthy

2. Jenks/Baj

3. Sweeney

 

Eh, what's the point of even thinking/hoping/wishing/praying for a starter like Burnett, Oswalt, or Schmidt. If we get anyone, it'll be Lilly or some marginal pitcher. We have the pieces to get just about anyone we want, oh well. Lilly will do.