TRADE THREAD II ~ July 2 - July 8

[Chisoxfn]

Right now, I'm still willing to say that Jose has just had a bad month.  He's gotten away from what he was doing earlier in the year, and is throwing far too many balls...thus getting him behind in the count and letting people hammer him.

 

The thing I'd say at this point is that everyone goes through good and bad times.  The year the Marlins won the series, Dontrelle Willis had an ERA nearly 7 during August.  Last year, several of Boston's starters were terrible in June.

 

I'll agree that Jose needs to be kept on a short leash, but he still should get some leeway.  At least until after the AS break.  Give him some time to work through this and try to get some control back.

 

If he keeps walking 6 guys in 4 innings, then I will come around to the "we need another starter" point of view.  Yesterday's game was just intolerable.  We beat ourselves because Jose (and a few others) couldn't throw strikes.

Don't get me started on Kevin Walker. He doesn't deserve to be in the majors. In fact, I dont' think he'd be on any other major league team if the Sox were to cut him. I'm absolutely appalled that Ozzie has went with the familiarity instead of going with the better players (Baj/Jenks).

 

I realize he wants to have a 2nd lefty, but if that lefty is crap, than you should go with another righty, plus Cotts can be used on a more heavy basis and there are plenty of teams that can go through stretches with just one lefty reliever. Hell, for a few years the Angels didn't have any.

[Dick Allen]

[/b]

 

That's the thing.  The guy is like 35-40 years old and has been pitching since he was probably 14.  He's not learning anything else.  This is the pitcher that Jose Contreras is, but he's actually more of a thrower.  He has no idea how to pitch and he's too pig-headed or scared to listen to the catcher.

 

The thing that scares me is that I don't trust him or McCarthy now.  I really feel like we need another starter.

I think Contreras can change. He did change this year until the last 4 starts. Ozzie said in the paper today that they let him go back to doing things his way. Hopefully, it won't take too many more of these types of outings for him to see his way isn't going to work. He definitely seems afraid of guys making contact, hence the walks and the wild pitches.

[Balta1701]

Since it's popped up in previous threads, I think I'll note here that the Yankees have reportedly dealt Paul Quantrill to the Padres for a couple struggling pitchers and cash, according to ESPN. link.

[Texsox]

Don't get me started on Kevin Walker.  He doesn't deserve to be in the majors.  In fact, I dont' think he'd be on any other major league team if the Sox were to cut him.  I'm absolutely appalled that Ozzie has went with the familiarity instead of going with the better players (Baj/Jenks). 

 

I realize he wants to have a 2nd lefty, but if that lefty is crap, than you should go with another righty, plus Cotts can be used on a more heavy basis and there are plenty of teams that can go through stretches with just one lefty reliever.  Hell, for a few years the Angels didn't have any.

 

I was disappointed also. He may be on his second to last chance here. At least it is early in the season.

[Milkman delivers]

There is a difference between pitching in the majors and pitching in Cuba.  He's got issues and a lot of it may due to him not being comfortable.  El Duque being in the clubhouse probably helps him but he's still developing himself.  This is stuff thats between the ears and he's going to have to adjust to the way major league baseball is played.

 

I know most expected him to adjust more quickly (the Yanks sure did) but he's made strides this year.  Just look at his numbers and compare them to previous 5th starters the Sox have had.  Contreras may be in a funk, but I can't see how people can forget the way he pitched for most of this season thus far.  The guy has  been pretty damn solid and should have 6 or 7 wins if it weren't for crappy relief and zero run support in his games.

 

He causes a lot of problems, but he's not near as bad as a lot of you say he is.  I'd be the first to say I don't like watching him pitch, but that doesn't mean he's an awful pitcher, in fact he's better than the major league average, imo.

 

And how the hell people are calling for El Duque to replace him I'll never know.  Duque had a ridiculously high WHIP and not only walked too many batters, but he also gave up way too many hits.  Maybe when he comes back Duque will pitch more like the Duque of old, but I'm not holding my breath and he's not a better option at this point than Jose.

 

What do we do when El Duque gets hurt again? Will Contreras s*** his pants again when his friend isn't there to comfort him? Duque will get hurt again, that might as well be written in stone. I just think there's too many ifs in our rotation now. I'm sure a lot of people disagree, but that's how I feel.

[YASNY]

Just to clarify things, who exactly is our 5th starter now ... Contreras, Hernandez or McCarthy? It seems every time one of these guys gets ripped, they are compared to 5th starter black hole of prior years.

[Chisoxfn]

I was disappointed also. He may be on his second to last chance here. At least it is early in the season.

The way I see it he has horrific stuff and to make things worse zero control. That doesn't bode well and his ERA isn't going to drop. I don't know what he once had back in the days, but he's a AAAer at best now.

 

I don't know why he ever got a shot this year to be honest. I understand he pitched great in spring training, but he did nothing in AAA to earn the promotion the first time he was called up. Then he sucked at the major league level (remember this isn't some rookie getting adjusted, this is a former MLer) and now they go back to him even though he's continuing to stink in the minors.

 

I could give a damn if the Sox only have Cotts from the left side until Marte comes back. Walker is not an option and shouldn't be. If they want a lefty go to Munoz or make a trade (not suggesting it) otherwise just bring up a guy that can pitch and ignore the stupid righty/lefty crap. Jenks or Baj would be lightyears more valuable. For example they could of came in and at least killed some innings last night instead of burning the pen.

[Chisoxfn]

Just to clarify things, who exactly is our 5th starter now ... Contreras, Hernandez or McCarthy?  It seems every time one of these guys gets ripped, they are compared to 5th starter black hole of prior years.

Hernandez is on the DL so he can't be. I'd say right now the team has 2 5th starters in Jose and McCarthy. But Jose would obviously get the bump as being the 4th starter.

[Dick Allen]

Don't get me started on Kevin Walker.  He doesn't deserve to be in the majors.  In fact, I dont' think he'd be on any other major league team if the Sox were to cut him.  I'm absolutely appalled that Ozzie has went with the familiarity instead of going with the better players (Baj/Jenks). 

 

I realize he wants to have a 2nd lefty, but if that lefty is crap, than you should go with another righty, plus Cotts can be used on a more heavy basis and there are plenty of teams that can go through stretches with just one lefty reliever.  Hell, for a few years the Angels didn't have any.

 

This is so true. There is no reason Kevin Walker should be in the major leagues. Even Arnie Munoz is a more attractive option. Ozzie is way too in love with lefty/lefty matchups. Just get someone in there who can get someone out.

[wsox08]

Hernandez is on the DL so he can't be.  I'd say right now the team has 2 5th starters in Jose and McCarthy.  But Jose would obviously get the bump as being the 4th starter.

Yeah McCarthy is our #5 because he is replacing El Duque... Are they going to smush in McCarthy right after Buehrle's start again or is he going to get more rest?

[Chisoxfn]

What do we do when El Duque gets hurt again?  Will Contreras s*** his pants again when his friend isn't there to comfort him?  Duque will get hurt again, that might as well be written in stone.  I just think there's too many ifs in our rotation now.  I'm sure a lot of people disagree, but that's how I feel.

No we see what Contreras can do. 4 starts and peopel forget how much he kicked ass earlier in the year. I know some of us were saying he had pitched as good, if not better than any of the other Sox starters at one point this year. He was kicking butt and after a few rough outings people forget that.

 

Last night was ugly, but every pitcher is going to have ugly games, most of them end up as games where a ton of runs are given up as well as hits, Jose's happen to be with tons of walks/wp's, etc. It was crappy, but overall he's kept the club in games and done a pretty good job.

 

I'm not talking about Duque because I think he's worthless. However, I have a lot more faith in Bmac than most and I do tend to agree with the theory of adding another starter and I'd like to see the Sox work out something for Burnett but I just don't see it happening. Starters like that are going to cost a whole lot (both financially speaking and in terms of prospects) and its not worth giving up all those prospects for half a year of Burnett.

 

All that said if Jose can go back to pitching like he did earlier in the year, and he's very well capable of that, than I'm less concerned and can live with either Brandon or Duque down the stretch in the 5th spot. In that situation I'd rather see someone like Lidge or another very good reliever acquired for the stretch run.

[Chisoxfn]

Yeah McCarthy is our #5 because he is replacing El Duque... Are they going to smush in McCarthy right after Buehrle's start again or is he going to get more rest?

Bmac is pitching on Monday with Garland and Buehrle pitching today and tomorrow respectively so I think he got dropped back a start, because if I recall last time he was in between Garland and Buehrle.

[Milkman delivers]

No we see what Contreras can do.  4 starts and peopel forget how much he kicked ass earlier in the year.  I know some of us were saying he had pitched as good, if not better than any of the other Sox starters at one point this year.  He was kicking butt and after a few rough outings people forget that. 

 

Last night was ugly, but every pitcher is going to have ugly games, most of them end up as games where a ton of runs are given up as well as hits, Jose's happen to be with tons of walks/wp's, etc.  It was crappy, but overall he's kept the club in games and done a pretty good job. 

 

I'm not talking about Duque because I think he's worthless.  However, I have a lot more faith in Bmac than most and I do tend to agree with the theory of adding another starter and I'd like to see the Sox work out something for Burnett but I just don't see it happening.  Starters like that are going to cost a whole lot (both financially speaking and in terms of prospects) and its not worth giving up all those prospects for half a year of Burnett. 

 

All that said if Jose can go back to pitching like he did earlier in the year, and he's very well capable of that, than I'm less concerned and can live with either Brandon or Duque down the stretch in the 5th spot.  In that situation I'd rather see someone like Lidge or another very good reliever acquired for the stretch run.

 

I haven't forgotten how well he pitched, but I feel like the Contreras we see now is the real one, and the good one was an aberration. It's just my opinion.

 

Do you think they'll get another starter? And if so, who?

[YASNY]

I haven't forgotten how well he pitched, but I feel like the Contreras we see now is the real one, and the good one was an aberration.  It's just my opinion.

 

Do you think they'll get another starter?  And if so, who?

 

Jaime Navarro!

[Balta1701]

I haven't forgotten how well he pitched, but I feel like the Contreras we see now is the real one, and the good one was an aberration.  It's just my opinion.

 

Do you think they'll get another starter?  And if so, who?

The 1 thing I'd also like to point out is that there are very few teams who can expect a huge amount from their 4th or 5th starters. You don't expect that guy to be the stopper. You don't expect that guy to come out and win 3 games in 1 playoff series.

 

The goal of your 4th and 5th starters, in my opinion, is to be able to give you a quality start 1 time out of every 2 times they pitch. You shouldn't really expect to get more out of them...if they're in the big leagues clearly they can win games, but you don't really expect a 4th or 5th starter to be a 20 game winner (Hi Jon!).

 

Sometimes when your 4th or 5th guy comes out, you'll face the other teams' 5th guy as well, and you'll simply outscore the other team. So if you're a good team, you can win even some of the bad starts by your 4th or 5th guys, but the real goal should be for them to give you a chance to win a decent number of games, while your lead guys really head out and pile up the wins.

 

I'm willing to live with Jose Contreras having ups and downs, as long as I know that every time he has a down, there'll be more ups. I'm willing to live with El Duque gong on the DL every now and again, as long as when he comes off the DL he can run out there and give us a shot to win in 3 or 4 games.

 

Your 4th and 5th starters aren't aces. We shouldn't expect them to be that. We should expect them to be the guys who need help from the offense, and we should expect them to get help from the offense because they'll often face the other teams 4th and 5th guys.

 

If Jose has a July exactly like his June, then I may lose confidence in his ability to have another up period, like he did in April & May. In that case, another piece could be plugged in. Aside from that, I still say the only thing we need is a backup 1b.

[Rowand44]

Contreras no doubt is rough to watch and frusterating as all hell, however he's been perfectly fine htis year and before his last 4 starts he was actually pretty damn awesome. I have no problem with him being here as a 4th or 5th starter, I will say however that I wouldn't want him starting a playoff game if the sox get there. If the Sox do get in the playoffs they're either going to have to go to a 3 man rotation, trade for another starter, or take our chances with el duque doing what he normally does in October. I have no part with the latter if he can proves he can still pitch at a high level after the allstar break.

[Milkman delivers]

Another thing to consider is how few innings that El Duque and the Count might throw. I'd feel much better if Contreras could go deep into game while doing what he does, but he doesn't always do that. Those two guys leave in the 5th inning enough to where it can really tax the bullpen. I just don't like the idea of have both Cubans, but then I wonder how one would react if the other was trade or put in the pen.

[Balta1701]

I don't think there would be a big reaction if 1 of the Cubans went to the pen. They'd still both be on the same team, and I think that's the big part.

 

Personally, I still say that no matter what happens, I want El Duque on this team come October as long as he's healthy enough to pitch. This team is a very inexperienced team when it comes to the playoffs - we've got only a couple guys with decent playoff time, A.J., Dye, Timo, Frank a little bit, and maybe a couple of other guys who have seen a few games. The core of our team, guys like Buehrle, Garland, Pods, Iguchi, Crede, ARow...most of them weren't around when we were there in 2000, and even then we were only in there for 3 games.

 

This team will have a need of a big game pitcher before the end, and that is what El Duque is.

[Frankensteiner]

Every time we go out west, we get our asses kicked in the first game.  It's jetlag, folks.  The whole team was flat last night, Contreras included.

 

Earlier this season we won our first game in Oakland 6-0. That's a pretty Hawk-esque way to look at things.

[Ozzie Montana]

For all of those who were interested in Quantrill he was taken by the Padres. Here the info.

 

 

Padres: Quantrill acquired from Yanks for two pitchers

According to a report in the San Diego Union-Tribune, the Padres addressed some of their bullpen needs by acquiring reliever Paul Quantrill from the Yankees in exchange for struggling pitchers Darrell May and Tim Redding on Friday. Both teams have yet to make an announcement today. The report speculates that Quantrill will report to the Padres today, while May will be a part of the Yankees bullpen, and Redding will report to Triple-A Columbus.

[Balta1701]

Earlier this season we won our first game in Oakland 6-0. That's a pretty Hawk-esque way to look at things.

I believe that was when Jon was doing his "I am a f***ing monster and you can't hit me if you try" work on the mound. No way we were gonna lose with him the way he was pitching.

 

At some point it is worth wondering how well this team deals with Jet lag though. Especially if we have to play in Anaheim in October (or San Diego, or Arizona)

[Al Lopez Ghost (old)]

Jaime Navarro!

Some things just can't be joked about.

[Reddy]

No we see what Contreras can do.  4 starts and peopel forget how much he kicked ass earlier in the year.  I know some of us were saying he had pitched as good, if not better than any of the other Sox starters at one point this year.  He was kicking butt and after a few rough outings people forget that. 

 

 

i remember a 2.15 era and people saying "contreras for the allstar team" not too long ago. granted he's had a string of bad starts since then but he has it in him. i'm not about to give up on him quite yet.

[sircaffey]

Contreras' last 4 starts:

 

0-3

23.1 IP

27 H

21 ER

16 BB

14 K

 

Would the real Jose Contreras stand up? Ok, thank you. Now pull your head out of your ass.

[danman31]

Somebody please split this Contreras stuff outta here. It's the whole thread and has no relevance to trades.

 

It's interesting to see the Yanks dealt Quantrill. Surprised someone wanted to give something up for him knowing he'd go on waivers anyway.