bjm676 Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 QUOTE(Adam G @ Jul 5, 2005 -> 02:16 PM) Wasnt it Ron Schuler who said that Clemens was washed up and that he's rather have Jamie Navarro? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted July 5, 2005 Author Share Posted July 5, 2005 QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jul 5, 2005 -> 03:19 PM) I actually agree with milkman here. I'd take Clemens don't get me wrong but I wouldn't give up the world for him. He was an above average pitcher his last 5 or so years in the american league but he wasn't special. I'd still love to have the guy but I wouldn't want to give up the farm for him but that's just me. Doesnt matter what he did then, its what he does NOW, and what he has now is a 1.41 in a hitters park. If you want to sit back and make sure we have some question mark minor leaguers for the next few years, thats you, I for one, would sell the barons for a WS title. Our minor leaguers dont exactly have the best track record coming up anyway, who says they are worth jack s***? Our top prospect just came up and tanked, the track record speaks the trend is that. So you wouldnt trade some serious question marks for the best pitcher in the NL? Thats honestly sad, I want to win now, and this is the team to do it, is there anyone else who wants a WS title? We know from the 85 bears that we can live on it for at least 20 years if not more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jul 5, 2005 -> 03:41 PM) Doesnt matter what he did then, its what he does NOW, and what he has now is a 1.41 in a hitters park. If you want to sit back and make sure we have some question mark minor leaguers for the next few years, thats you, I for one, would sell the barons for a WS title. Our minor leaguers dont exactly have the best track record coming up anyway, who says they are worth jack s***? Our top prospect just came up and tanked, the track record speaks the trend is that. So you wouldnt trade some serious question marks for the best pitcher in the NL? Thats honestly sad, I want to win now, and this is the team to do it, is there anyone else who wants a WS title? We know from the 85 bears that we can live on it for at least 20 years if not more. The main problem is that Clemens won't come here. He doesn't want to play on the Sox, period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jul 5, 2005 -> 02:41 PM) Doesnt matter what he did then, its what he does NOW, and what he has now is a 1.41 in a hitters park. If you want to sit back and make sure we have some question mark minor leaguers for the next few years, thats you, I for one, would sell the barons for a WS title. Our minor leaguers dont exactly have the best track record coming up anyway, who says they are worth jack s***? Our top prospect just came up and tanked, the track record speaks the trend is that. So you wouldnt trade some serious question marks for the best pitcher in the NL? Thats honestly sad, I want to win now, and this is the team to do it, is there anyone else who wants a WS title? We know from the 85 bears that we can live on it for at least 20 years if not more. Here's the thing though Rock do you really think a 40 year old pitcher would get that much better??? It's seems a bit far fetched, now obviously Clemens isn't the average pitcher but it still seems unlikely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Jul 5, 2005 -> 03:47 PM) The main problem is that Clemens won't come here. He doesn't want to play on the Sox, period. Is there a source for that quote? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 QUOTE(Steff @ Jul 5, 2005 -> 03:50 PM) Is there a source for that quote? Some people are all-knowing, all-seeing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 QUOTE(Steff @ Jul 6, 2005 -> 06:50 AM) Is there a source for that quote? IIRC there was a source a while back saying he would only play for the Yankees if he was traded and no-one else, or at least that's the general consensus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Jul 5, 2005 -> 03:52 PM) IIRC there was a source a while back saying he would only play for the Yankees if he was traded and no-one else, or at least that's the general consensus. There's your source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted July 5, 2005 Author Share Posted July 5, 2005 QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jul 5, 2005 -> 03:50 PM) Here's the thing though Rock do you really think a 40 year old pitcher would get that much better??? It's seems a bit far fetched, now obviously Clemens isn't the average pitcher but it still seems unlikely. Get better from what?? We would only need him for half a season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimenez4MVP Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 This kind reminds me of the Randy Johnson situation- KW was willing to do what it took to get him over the the Southside, but Randy said he didn't want to pitch here. Everyone seems to have a fascination for pitching for the Yankees and if Roger does get traded it would be to the Yankees only. Roger has a no trade clause and he would have to waive it to come here- that just wont happen. I'm with Texsox- this is probably just a side-rumor to get everyone talking so KW can swoop in then aqcuire the guy he is really shooting for. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The Astros gave up Freddy Garcia, Carlos Guillen, and John Halama to use The Unit for the second half of the season, and they lost in the first round anyways.. If they didnt make that trade they would be in pretty good shape right now, but then again, theres no way to know that if we get him we will lose in the first round, ide rather not risk it though.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted July 5, 2005 Author Share Posted July 5, 2005 QUOTE(Jimenez4MVP @ Jul 5, 2005 -> 03:55 PM) ide rather not risk it though.. Risk=reward. Not risking anything will never get you a title. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanOfCorn Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jul 5, 2005 -> 08:41 PM) Doesnt matter what he did then, its what he does NOW, and what he has now is a 1.41 in a hitters park. If you want to sit back and make sure we have some question mark minor leaguers for the next few years, thats you, I for one, would sell the barons for a WS title. Our minor leaguers dont exactly have the best track record coming up anyway, who says they are worth jack s***? Our top prospect just came up and tanked, the track record speaks the trend is that. So you wouldnt trade some serious question marks for the best pitcher in the NL? Thats honestly sad, I want to win now, and this is the team to do it, is there anyone else who wants a WS title? We know from the 85 bears that we can live on it for at least 20 years if not more. Is there a success rate for minor leaguers? I mean you got guys like Buerhle and Piazza who were drafted low and have become stars and you have guys like Borchard who is a dud. I don't think anyone can make a sweeping judgment about anyone's farm system. McCarthy pitched 4 or 5 games. It took Jon Garland 5 years for it to click. There will always be duds. But if McCarthy or Anderson are traded and become stars somewhere AND we don't win that World Series you think we will get by acquiring one player, you just got punk'd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimenez4MVP Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 Risk=reward. Not risking anything will never get you a title. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> There are other pitchers we could acquire that will help us without having to send Houston a s***load for Clemens.. not only that, I seriously doubt Clemens plays next year and even if he does were not paying him the ridiculous contract he would want to return Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jul 5, 2005 -> 03:41 PM) Doesnt matter what he did then, its what he does NOW, and what he has now is a 1.41 in a hitters park. If you want to sit back and make sure we have some question mark minor leaguers for the next few years, thats you, I for one, would sell the barons for a WS title. Our minor leaguers dont exactly have the best track record coming up anyway, who says they are worth jack s***? Our top prospect just came up and tanked, the track record speaks the trend is that. So you wouldnt trade some serious question marks for the best pitcher in the NL? Thats honestly sad, I want to win now, and this is the team to do it, is there anyone else who wants a WS title? We know from the 85 bears that we can live on it for at least 20 years if not more. Clemens does not guarantee us a World Series title. No one does. He can put up a dominate start and we still lose 2-1. s*** happens in the playoffs. I'd tend to think he'd be good, but not unhittable in the AL. He's doing even better than he did last year right now. In fact, this is the best he's done in quite some time, and really nothing has changed from his time on the Yankees, other than the league he is in. The NL definitely scores fewer runs. Only three NL teams have scored more runs than the White Sox offense we b**** about so often. I think he'd end up pitching somewhere between Mark and Garcia right now (similar to Johan's numbers last year). While that's good, is that worth $10 mil and our top two prospects for half a season? Who knows. I'm somewhat torn. We're probably in the playoff already, so the main benefit would be a handful of starts in the playoffs. If we don't win, we basically gave up a lot for nothing. If we do win (and as great as that is), he's still gone and now we don't have our two best prospects. There's an awful lot of risk, and I'm not so sure our chances of winning increase that much with him since one start counts for so much in the playoffs and you don't know who'll do what. Anyways, there's still not that great a chance that he would agree to come here. As for the minor leaguers, there's no guarantee there either, but is it really worth making sure we have no one who can contribute for at least the next two and a half seasons? Where would we be if we had dealt Buehrle, Garland, and Rowand a few years ago? McCarthy isn't even 22 yet and has played about half a year over A ball. Give him a break. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimenez4MVP Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 Oh and by the way.. in case you didnt know Clemens doesnt even go to the Astros games unless he is pitching, he doesnt go on the road with them unless he is pitching and there is even a clause in his contract that he has the right to NOT pitch if he chooses to go watch his kids play ball.. Like I said, there are more reasonable options that we can obtain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Jul 5, 2005 -> 03:53 PM) There's your source. DBAHO is the source...?? No offense to DBAHO, of course. I'm sure if he said it.. it's in print somewhere - like Shilling's comments about never playing for the Sox, and Randy's comments last year about not wanting to go anywhere but the Yanks (DBAHO.. think you might have gotten the 2 mixed up..?). Clemens has yet to make a comment about leaving Houston so I'd just like to know where the idea that he doesn't want to come here came from.. I've never heard it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jul 5, 2005 -> 03:57 PM) Risk=reward. Not risking anything will never get you a title. That's incredibly far from the truth. Not every WS champ makes a deadline deal. In fact, few make a deal of any consequence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 QUOTE(Jimenez4MVP @ Jul 5, 2005 -> 04:01 PM) Oh and by the way.. in case you didnt know Clemens doesnt even go to the Astros games unless he is pitching, he doesnt go on the road with them unless he is pitching and there is even a clause in his contract that he has the right to NOT pitch if he chooses to go watch his kids play ball.. Like I said, there are more reasonable options that we can obtain Everyone knows it.. it's common knowledge. Would his demands be different if he wasn't 30 minutes from his own bed, or his kids little league game..? Food for thought.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jul 5, 2005 -> 02:55 PM) Get better from what?? We would only need him for half a season. Get better from 03. It's hard for me to believe that a 40 year old pitcher has improved so much, again Clemens isn't your average person but still I just don't see that as very realistic, I could definitely be wrong though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted July 5, 2005 Author Share Posted July 5, 2005 QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Jul 5, 2005 -> 04:01 PM) Only three NL teams have scored more runs than the White Sox offense we b**** about so often. I think he'd end up pitching somewhere between Mark and Garcia right now (similar to Johan's numbers last year). . As for the minor leaguers, there's no guarantee there either, but is it really worth making sure we have no one who can contribute for at least the next two and a half seasons? Where would we be if we had dealt Buehrle, Garland, and Rowand a few years ago? McCarthy isn't even 22 yet and has played about half a year over A ball. Give him a break. How many AL teams score more runs than us??? As far as pitching between Mark and Freddy, he is the BEST pitcher in the NL right now, probably in the whole league. How can you say he will just be ok if he came to the AL. The guy is flat out dominating people. His ERA is under 2, that unbelieveable. And for the minor leaguers, you entirely missed the point, im saying you cant guarantee they will pan out, for the MB Garland and A-row, we have tons of highly regarded prospects who have failed, how bout Borchard, Olivo. There are 2 sides to the coin. Im saying i dont care about the next few years, I want us to have the best chance to win now, if we dont, then fine, we lost. But I want KW to give us the best players to get to the WS now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanOfCorn Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jul 5, 2005 -> 09:08 PM) And for the minor leaguers, you entirely missed the point, im saying you cant guarantee they will pan out, for the MB Garland and A-row, we have tons of highly regarded prospects who have failed, how bout Borchard, Olivo. There are 2 sides to the coin. Im saying i dont care about the next few years, I want us to have the best chance to win now, if we dont, then fine, we lost. But I want KW to give us the best players to get to the WS now. But there has got to be a percentage of prospects that make it to the big leagues and contribute. And, yes, you don't know if a prospect will pan out. But, you also don't know if they will. In other words, you have to pick and choose. Sometimes a GM makes the wrong decisions. But to give them all away because you don't know what they will cripple your team if they are needed. BMac had an awesome spring. How were any of us to know he wouldn't carry that over to the regular season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted July 5, 2005 Author Share Posted July 5, 2005 QUOTE(TheDybber @ Jul 5, 2005 -> 04:12 PM) But there has got to be a percentage of prospects that make it to the big leagues and contribute. And, yes, you don't know if a prospect will pan out. But, you also don't know if they will. In other words, you have to pick and choose. Sometimes a GM makes the wrong decisions. But to give them all away because you don't know what they will cripple your team if they are needed. BMac had an awesome spring. How were any of us to know he wouldn't carry that over to the regular season. I dont care if he carries it over to the season sometime soon. I want to win now, and the guys in the minors arent going to help us unless its in a trade. This is the best sox team we have ever seen in our lifetime, its time to capitalize on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 QUOTE(Steff @ Jul 5, 2005 -> 04:05 PM) DBAHO is the source...?? No offense to DBAHO, of course. I'm sure if he said it.. it's in print somewhere - like Shilling's comments about never playing for the Sox, and Randy's comments last year about not wanting to go anywhere but the Yanks (DBAHO.. think you might have gotten the 2 mixed up..?). Clemens has yet to make a comment about leaving Houston so I'd just like to know where the idea that he doesn't want to come here came from.. I've never heard it. I'm not gonna go looking for it. I've heard it and I believe it. I don't care enough about it to go looking for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Jul 5, 2005 -> 04:19 PM) I'm not gonna go looking for it. I've heard it and I believe it. I don't care enough about it to go looking for it. OK. Anyone else wana help wth this one..? TIA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanOfCorn Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jul 5, 2005 -> 09:15 PM) I dont care if he carries it over to the season sometime soon. I want to win now, and the guys in the minors arent going to help us unless its in a trade. This is the best sox team we have ever seen in our lifetime, its time to capitalize on that. You mean like K-Rod didn't help the Angels? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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