TRADE THREAD III ~July 9 - July 15

[SHAFTR]

I could buy that method.  I just feel Iguchi is made to be a .280 hitter with 15-20 Hr's and good gap power.  If he moves to a production spot I think you'll see that come out and at the same time the Sox will be sliding in a better version of Iguchi (the 2 hole hitter Iguchi) emerge in the 2 spot in Omar Vizquel (who flat out can handle a bat with the best of them).

 

To me its basically allowing Iguchi to play more of his game down in the lineup while the Sox also upgrade to a little better 2 hole hitter in Omar (and its hard to do much better than Guchi has).

 

 

In his career (not counting this year, since those #s aren't out yet), Vizquel has had the league average OPS once and has been above average once. The rest of his career he has been below the league average. This is not a description of a 2 hitter.

[Chisoxfn]

Would Vizquel be as unselfish as Iguchi has been?  I know Omar is a great hitter and can do little things, but I don't know exactly how he is with going 0-1 by hitting behind the runner.

To me he is one of the best in the biz at doing that.

[JUGGERNAUT]

I have to admit I was relying on Griffey's past and stature as a measure of his D. I didn't bother to crunch the numbers. Yes, it's possible Juggs can put together a post w/out looking at the numbers. When I do you guys always catch me on it

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fieldi...llInningsPlayed

05 F% AR 13th .990, KGJ 16th .985

05 IP AR 7th 717, KGJ 12th 680

05 TC AR 14th 191, KGJ 10th 199

05 A AR 23rd 2, KGJ 17th 3

05 RF AR 17th 2.37, KGJ 10th 2.60

05 ZR AR 4th .923, KGJ 22nd .820

 

Cincy pitchers are generating more hits right at KGJ than White Sox pitchers are for Rowand. But Rowand is covering a LOT more ground

than KGJ these days. Griffey has the better arm, but a 3-2 assist advantage is insignificant.

 

I think it's time some of you start giving Aaron props.

2004 ZR AR 1st .921 KGJ DNP enough

 

The Southtown obviously does not value Rowand enough either to even suggest KGJ. Post season championships are won on pitching, big plays, & big hits. Aaron has a better chance of helping all 3 categories than KGJ.

 

Let's just hope Aaron starts hitting again but like Crede his glove talent

has earned him that everyday player status.

[Kyyle23]

I have to admit I was relying on Griffey's past and stature as a measure of his D.  I didn't bother to crunch the numbers. Yes, it's possible Juggs can put together a post w/out looking at the numbers.  When I do you guys always catch me on it

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fieldi...llInningsPlayed

05 F% AR 13th .990, KGJ 16th .985

05 IP  AR  7th  717,  KGJ 12th 680

05 TC AR 14th 191,  KGJ 10th 199

05 A AR 23rd    2,  KGJ 17th 3

05 RF AR 17th  2.37, KGJ 10th 2.60

05 ZR AR 4th .923,  KGJ 22nd .820

 

Cincy pitchers are generating more hits right at KGJ than White Sox pitchers are for Rowand.  But Rowand is covering a LOT more ground

than KGJ these days. Griffey has the better arm, but a 3-2 assist advantage is insignificant.

 

I think it's time some of you start giving Aaron props.

2004 ZR AR 1st .921  KGJ DNP enough

 

The Southtown obviously does not value Rowand enough either to even suggest KGJ.  Post season championships are won on pitching, big plays, & big hits.  Aaron has a better chance of helping all 3 categories than KGJ.

 

Let's just hope Aaron starts hitting again but like Crede his glove talent

has earned him that everyday player status.

 

Finally, someone who can admit they are wrong.

[daa84]

I have to admit I was relying on Griffey's past and stature as a measure of his D.  I didn't bother to crunch the numbers. Yes, it's possible Juggs can put together a post w/out looking at the numbers.  When I do you guys always catch me on it

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fieldi...llInningsPlayed

05 F% AR 13th .990, KGJ 16th .985

05 IP  AR  7th  717,  KGJ 12th 680

05 TC AR 14th 191,  KGJ 10th 199

05 A AR 23rd    2,  KGJ 17th 3

05 RF AR 17th  2.37, KGJ 10th 2.60

05 ZR AR 4th .923,  KGJ 22nd .820

 

Cincy pitchers are generating more hits right at KGJ than White Sox pitchers are for Rowand.  But Rowand is covering a LOT more ground

than KGJ these days. Griffey has the better arm, but a 3-2 assist advantage is insignificant.

 

I think it's time some of you start giving Aaron props.

2004 ZR AR 1st .921  KGJ DNP enough

 

The Southtown obviously does not value Rowand enough either to even suggest KGJ.  Post season championships are won on pitching, big plays, & big hits.  Aaron has a better chance of helping all 3 categories than KGJ.

 

Let's just hope Aaron starts hitting again but like Crede his glove talent

has earned him that everyday player status.

 

i believe baseball prospectus had rowand #2 in the league in defense for a center fielder, ranked by one of their goofy stats. behind hunter i think. rowand is certainly a terrific center fielder, and probably the most underrated in the game. if i was to make a list i would go jones, cameron (even tho the mets stupidly moved himfor beltran), hunter, rowand

[Guest JimH]

In his career (not counting this year, since those #s aren't out yet), Vizquel has had the league average OPS once and has been above average once.  The rest of his career he has been below the league average.  This is not a description of a 2 hitter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

On base plus slugging is not the primary role of the #2 hitter. Iguchi's OPS would be much higher if he wasn't asked to give himself up so frequently.

[JUGGERNAUT]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/battin...Type=2&type=reg

CWS vs LHers: weak links (Koney, Pods, Timo)

Frank Thomas .286/1.114

Gload 2004 .425/1.102

Jermaine Dye .303/1.036

Juan Uribe .348/.976

Carl Everett .351/.900

Aaron Rowand .333/.825

Chris Widger .267/.824

Joe Crede .281/.801

Pablo Ozuna .367/.792

T. Iguchi .275/.788

A. Pierzynski .267/.787

S. Podsednik .328/.741

Willie Harris .333/.733

Paul Konerko .181/.689

Timo Perez .100/.200

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/battin...Type=2&type=reg

CWS vs RHers: weak links (Aaron, Crede, AJ, Widger, Uribe)

Paul Konerko .270/.871

S. Podsednik .284/.704

Aaron Rowand .252/.675

Jermaine Dye .257/.793

Joe Crede .232/.703

T. Iguchi .281/.729

A. Pierzynski .246/.707

Juan Uribe .207/.532

Carl Everett .241/.759

Timo Perez .271/.729

Willie Harris .197/.481

Frank Thomas .222/.963

Pablo Ozuna .190/.435

Chris Widger .242/.578

Ross Gload .167/.333

 

Notes to KW, Ozzie:

Catcher:

I don't believe in upgrading C at mid-season. It's too big a change for the pitching staff. I think that was one of our downfalls when we traded for Johnson. He hit for us but the pitching declined considerably. For better or worse you need to stick with AJ & Widger even though they won't produce much vs RHers.

 

Short:

The middle IF bench is woeful vs RHers. Omar is the answer there.

Yes, it means Uribe becomes a bench player but come on already.

He's produced a 532 OPS! That's horrible. You can make the argument to stick with a guy if he's slighty below 700 but approaching 500? Fughedabut it!

 

Omar Vizquel vs RHers: .326/.787

That's a 255 OPS jump over Uribe! This is a no-brainer!

 

Thomas needs to play most of the time. He's got the best OPS

And stop being so damn cheap! Uribe at $9.5M/yr even as a sub is more than reasonable. He can play 2B, SS, & 3B at a solid everyday level as

insurance against starters. He is a great bat vs LHers. He's still going to get a LOT of playing time. There are plenty of LHers for the Sox to face n the 2nd half.

 

The guy was going no where fast in COL before KW got him. Next ST he'll still get the opportunity to beat Omar out for the starter role.

 

DH:

Ozzie cut the s*** out. Thomas needs to be the everyday DH unless for some reason he can't play. He's got the best OPS on the team vs LHers & RHers.

 

1B:

He's hitting over .400 in the ml, & hit .425 vs LHers in 04. Gload vs L, Koney vs R should get it done.

 

3B:

You need a strong bat vs RHers on the bench. Randa.

Randa 05 vs R: .305/.882 Randa 04 vs R: .282/.743

Randa represents an obvious upgrade at 3B vs RHers.

 

The addition of Omar & Randa to share time with Crede & Uribe

makes Timo, Ozuna, & Harris obsolete.

 

The bench vs RHers:

Crede, Uribe, Gload, Everett, Widger

 

The bench vs LHers:

Randa, Omar, Koney, Dye, AJ

 

If Randa & Omar are too high of a price to pay then get comparable guys that are strong vs RHers that can play SS & 3B.

[ZoomSlowik]

I'm definitely starting to buy into Randa, especially if Crede's back becomes an issue. We can't have Ozuna and Uribe starting on the left side, that's just a killer on the lineup, and the D takes a hit too. Vizquel would be nice, but his salary is kind of rough, and I'm not so sure that the Giants will even trade him, especially since Bonds coming back and Schmidt potentially returning to form can make them a real competitor in the NL West for next season.

Edited July 12, 2005 by ZoomSlowik

[Balta1701]

Couple of points Re: Juggs.

 

1. I'd want Thomas playing every day too if I thought he could. I don't. I don't want to see him play more than 2/3 of our games for at least another month. He's been doing a wonderful job, but he's also aching in the process. He's complained in press accounts of his legs being tired and sore repeatedly, which isn't surprising at all considering how long he was out. If we put him in every single day, there's a real good chance he'll pull a Nomar and snap something.

 

2. I think you have a bit of a roster spot problem with your players as above. Your suggestion is that we should add in Vizquel and Randa and move Crede/Uribe to part time/backups/platoon roles. You then have Ross Gload coming up to play 1b, with Timo and Harris being removed.

 

This is 3 guys with 2 free roster spots. And I really don't think that we can say "take someone out of the bullpen" because Walker and Jenks will in short order be replaced by El Duque and Marte. This leaves you with 26 players to fill 25 roster spots. So I think the obvious question is; who else do you drop?

[JUGGERNAUT]

pitching wise LHers are getting the better of us:

http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/pitc...Type=2&type=vsb

vs LHB: .330O .428S .758OOP .258BAA

vs RHB: .296O .363S .659OOP .238BAA

 

Why does OAK have our number?

Only 3 LHP on the staff, & 5 LHBs in the lineup.

 

Any new arms need to be strong vs LHB's.

This yr's Schmidt does not fit that profile but last yr's did.

As for Contra/El Duque moving to long relief,

Contra vs LHB: .318O .376S .694OOP .213BAA - good

El Duque vs LHB: bad - don't look

[JUGGERNAUT]

Thomas doesn't have to play vs LHers but he does vs RHers. So if you are to rest him because he's still laboring try to do it when you are facing a LH starter. Having him come off the bench is always a good thing.

 

Ozuna, Timo, & Harris are gone. In their place comes Omar, Randa, & Gload. Widger, & Everett round out the bench.

 

As for the staff & pen:

Rotation: Buehlre, Garcia, Garland, Schmidt, El Duque

Pen: Contra, Marte, Shingo, Politte, Cotts, Hermanson

 

That makes Ozuna, Harris, Timo, & Vizcaino trade bait.

[quickman]

He's still adjusting and doing an incredible job.  Why would we want to make him adjust to something else?

 

 

because visquel is a better more experienced 2nd place hitter and because iguchi is probably a better hitter lower in the lineup as he proved in Japan. But it doesn't matter unless visquel comes here so arguing about what spot in the lineup is futal at this point.

[Balta1701]

I think my whole perspective on this trade discussion can be summed up by these words from Gammons.

 

The Yankees or Cubs probably could have had Mark Kotsay before he signed his extension, and filled a void for the next three years. But Brian Cashman and Jim Hendry never wavered and refused to trade their best young players -- including Eric Duncan, Philip Hughes, Felix Pie and Brian Dopirak.

 

The Red Sox might be able to get Billy Wagner if the Phillies decide to trade him by July 31, but don't look for them to trade Jon Papelbon, Jon Lester or Hanley Ramirez to get him. "Why have the Braves been one of the greatest dynasties in sports?" asked Theo Epstein. "They develop players, they keep the best and when they run into rough spots, they work through them, not panic and mortgage their future for the immediate."

 

"We have to get back to doing what made the Yankees so good for such a long period beginning in the '90s," said Cashman. "We're in the position we're in because we stopped developing our own young players. We can point to what's happened since we brought up Robinson Cano and Chien Wang."

[quickman]

I'm definitely starting to buy into Randa, especially if Crede's back becomes an issue. We can't have Ozuna and Uribe starting on the left side, that's just a killer on the lineup, and the D takes a hit too. Vizquel would be nice, but his salary is kind of rough, and I'm not so sure that the Giants will even trade him, especially since Bonds coming back and Schmidt potentially returning to form can make them a real competitor in the NL West for next season.

 

 

Personally I don't hink its our business to worry about salary structure when we are going for a world series winner. I heard JR the other day on the radio and he said payroll is not an issue if we get who we want to get. KW has free reign. Payroll issues should be discussed when putting together a team at the beginning of the year. Most likely we will draw between 2.1-2.3 million fans this year. In addition if you get the players you want, you will pay ahlf there salary this year and then you can re-work your payroll next year if need be. PS we won't have to re-work payroll if we get to the World series. We will have lots of money.

[Rowand44]

because visquel is a better more experienced 2nd place hitter and because iguchi is probably a better hitter lower in the lineup as he proved in Japan. But it doesn't matter unless visquel comes here so arguing about what spot in the lineup is futal at this point.

Tadahito has been as good of a number 2 hitter as there has been in baseball.

[quickman]

I think my whole perspective on this trade discussion can be summed up by these words from Gammons.

 

 

Then I suppose your on the side of not trying to improve this team, because we won't get a player unless we give up prospects. I think something like 9 out of 10 prospects don't make it. But don't tell that to all those Baj lovers out there.

 

PS two years ago you wouldn't have traded Borchard to improve. Now look at him...He blows.

[quickman]

Tadahito has been as good of a number 2 hitter as there has been in baseball.

 

 

So what, does that mean he will remain that way? Teams won't figure him out in the second half? We are talking about improving a ballclub, putting the pieces into place. Quite frankly I really don't care one bit who hits where, I am not some 15 year old with a crush on a player. Get the players, and its OZZies job to put them where they belong. I will not lose sleep over Visquel hitting second instead of Iguchi. Will you?

[southsideirish71]

Then I suppose your on the side of not trying to improve this team, because we won't get a player unless we give up prospects. I think something like 9 out of 10 prospects don't make it. But don't tell that to all those Baj lovers out there.

 

PS two years ago you wouldn't have traded Borchard to improve. Now look at him...He blows.

 

 

Remember all the Miguel Olivo love last year and how we traded away the next version of pudge. This mini-pudge has spent most of his time going between the bigs and AAA. Prospects are just that. And plus with our track record of watching prospect after prospect wet themselves when they come up, who cares. I would rather good deep into the playoffs instead of having uber crap stain prospect number 10.

[southsideirish71]

So what, does that mean he will remain that way? Teams won't figure him out in the second half? We are talking about improving a ballclub, putting the pieces into place. Quite frankly I really don't care one bit who hits where, I am not some 15 year old with a crush on a player. Get the players, and its OZZies job to put them where they belong. I will not lose sleep over Visquel hitting second instead of Iguchi. Will you?

 

 

Doesnt anyone think that the gooch would rather hit somewhere else also. Somewhere he doesnt have to take 2 strikes or give himself up. Its a great effort and all, but I think he would hit further down in the order if he gets a chance to actually swing the bat.

[Rowand44]

So what, does that mean he will remain that way? Teams won't figure him out in the second half? We are talking about improving a ballclub, putting the pieces into place. Quite frankly I really don't care one bit who hits where, I am not some 15 year old with a crush on a player. Get the players, and its OZZies job to put them where they belong. I will not lose sleep over Visquel hitting second instead of Iguchi. Will you?

First off, Iguchi will probably improve in the 2nd half rather then decline. Second, if there was one guy in baseball who can hit behind the runner as well as Tadahito has done it'd be Vizquel, Omar would be the only guy in baseball I'd even think about giving the 2 hole instead of Tadahito. My point is Iguchi has earned that spot and shouldn't just be kicked out of it cause he has been absolutely unreal there this year. Anyways, if the Sox did acquire Omar something that I'd like to see is Iguchi in the 3 hole and Frank in the cleanup slot. I say that because with Vizquel and Tadahito's ability to put the ball in play when they need to it'd almost be an automatic run when Scott got on base and got himself in scoring position.

[quickman]

Remember all the Miguel Olivo love last year and how we traded away the next version of pudge.  This mini-pudge has spent most of his time going between the bigs and AAA. Prospects are just that.  And plus with our track record of watching prospect after prospect wet themselves when they come up, who cares.  I would rather good deep into the playoffs instead of having uber crap stain prospect number 10.

 

 

Thank you me too, and really do we miss Jeremy Reed? Who would you rather have with this team Reed or Garcia. I think the point is made. It really is about right now, it can take years to build a unit to go to the World series. Cleveland started over, one day we may need to do that but not now. We need veteran good ball players who have playoff experience.

[southsider2k5]

I think my whole perspective on this trade discussion can be summed up by these words from Gammons.

 

That's an interesting twist and a good perspective on when the Yankees fell apart. The thing is you don't want to get 5 years down the road and look back and see Jon Garland and Dontrelle Willis at the All-Star game, meanwhile still looking for guys to fill their shoes. Tomorrows stars come from somewhere, and it isn't todays 35 year old declining players. There is a delicate balance here. If you aren't the Yankees you can't afford a $10 million starter at every position and you need some $500,000/yr starters to go with your $10 million/ yr starters. You can't just rape the farm system hoping to win today or you end up in a hole like Detroit, Yankees, Mets, Orioles etc, where it takes years to recover.

[quickman]

First off, Iguchi will probably improve in the 2nd half rather then decline.  Second, if there was one guy in baseball who can hit behind the runner as well as Tadahito has done it'd be Vizquel, Omar would be the only guy in baseball I'd even think about giving the 2 hole instead of Tadahito.  My point is Iguchi has earned that spot and shouldn't just be kicked out of it cause he has been absolutely unreal there this year.  Anyways, if the Sox did acquire Omar something that I'd like to see is Iguchi in the 3 hole and Frank in the cleanup slot.  I say that because with Vizquel and Tadahito's ability to put the ball in play when they need to it'd almost be an automatic run when Scott got on base and got himself in scoring position.

 

 

Rowand I understand your thinking and I will not try to change it, I will say that Iguchi is a nice player who has never hit second in his life. He is doing a great job, but my loyalty is to the team not Iguchi himself. Iguchi will do as he is told without complaint, unlike the american players. I am sure if visquel comes in it will all work out.

[Balta1701]

Thank you me too, and really do we miss Jeremy Reed? Who would you rather have with this team Reed or Garcia. I think the point is made. It really is about right now, it can take years to build a unit to go to the World series. Cleveland started over, one day we may need to do that but not now. We need veteran good ball players who have playoff experience.

With the Reed/Olivo trade, there was an added benefit that we were 90% sure when we traded him that we could get him signed to a 3 year extension almost immediately because we had Ozzie as our manager.

 

If we hadn't been able to sign Garcia, we'd be without any of them now. Think about that for a moment...when we acquired Garcia last year, we were still in the race, Thomas wasn't yet hurt, and we though Ordonez would be returning. Then both bats went down.

 

If we hadn't resigned Garcia, he'd have been out of our price range in the offseason, and we'd have traded away Olivo and Reed for basically a pitcher who couldn't help us salvage the season when a couple unrelated things went wrong.

 

If we didnt' think we could sign Garcia at a reasonable price, I'd have called that trade a mistake, and I'd have been right.

[Rowand44]

Rowand I understand your thinking and I will not try to change it, I will say that Iguchi is a nice player who has never hit second in his life. He is doing a great job, but my loyalty is to the team not Iguchi himself. Iguchi will do as he is told without complaint, unlike the american players. I am sure if visquel comes in it will all work out.

Obviously my loyalty is to the team and not to Iguchi, the point is Gooch helps this team so much in the 2 hole. Like I said Vizquel is the only player in baseball right now that could even compare to what Tadahito has done in the 2 hole. However, Scott leading off folllowed by Omar and then the Gooch would be pretty lethal because getting Scotty on base would be a run almost everytime. You'd see a ton of him stealing 2nd, Omar getting him over and then Gooch getting him in. Whatever, all this talk is probably for nothing because I doubt we trade for Omar.