TRADE THREAD III ~July 9 - July 15

[Dick Allen]

Griffey is probably a better hitter than Rowand, if he stays healthy. That is a huge if. Defensively, Griffey of 2005 is nowhere near the Griffey of 1995. He really should be playing a corner. Rowand has struggled lately and is not getting any extra base hits. This should change. He is a career .307 hitter after the all star break. He should heat up.

[Rowand44]

Now that should be in green. Rowand is far below Griffey in defense. Griffey is very very smooth in CF now or during any point in his career. Like I said Aaron is good, but no where near Griff Jr.

Have you seen Jr. play center lately?? He's a step slower, doesn't get the reads he used to get, overall he's just not a great centerfielder anymore. In his prime Griffey was as good as they came in cf, at this point it's not even close, Aaron is a much better defender.

[GoodAsGould]

Griffey is probably a better hitter than Rowand, if he stays healthy. That is a huge if. Defensively, Griffey of 2005 is nowhere near the Griffey of 1995. He really should be playing a corner. Rowand has struggled lately and is not getting any extra base hits. This should change. He is a career .307 hitter after the all star break. He should heat up.

 

 

Griffey cant play a corner OF spot because of his knee's.... Idonno they did a special on it where it said the CF spot is actually easier on him because of some reason or not. As far as his defense is today.... Idonno if some of you guys havent seen him play but he is still making those gold glove catches and his range is fine.

[Milkman delivers]

According to ESPNEWS, the D-Rays just picked up Joe Borowski. I'm probably reading into this too much, but could it possibly mean that Danys Baez is getting traded soon?

 

I'd take him.

[Ozzie Montana]

According to ESPNEWS, the D-Rays just picked up Joe Borowski.  I'm probably reading into this too much, but could it possibly mean that Danys Baez is getting traded soon?

 

I'd take him.

 

Jul 11 The Devil Rays are expected to sign Joe Borowski on Monday, which could indicate that trade talks involving Baez are heating up, the Tampa Tribune reports.

The four teams most linked publicly to Baez are the Braves, Marlins, Diamondbacks and Red Sox.

 

^per Rotowire

 

He's definately had his struggles but it also doesnt help if you play on the D-Rays

 

Here are his stats

W-L ERA K Walks Saves

5-2 2.68 28 20 13

Edited July 12, 2005 by Ozzie Montana

[Milkman delivers]

Jul 11 The Devil Rays are expected to sign Joe Borowski on Monday, which could indicate that trade talks involving Baez are heating up, the Tampa Tribune reports.

 

^per Rotowire

 

He's definately had his struggles but it also doesnt help if you play on the D-Rays

 

Here are his stats

W-L  ERA  K    Walks  Saves

5-2      2.68    28        20      13

 

*Cracks knuckles*

 

Yeeeeeep, I'm good.

 

Really, if he's had his troubles but somehow has a 2.68 ERA, that's great.

[Ozzie Montana]

*Cracks knuckles*

 

Yeeeeeep, I'm good.

 

Really, if he's had his troubles but somehow has a 2.68 ERA, that's great.

 

if anyone wants to know why he has a 2.68 and we arent to happy with that is that he allows allota inherited runners to score, i mean a lot! I have this guy on my fantasy team and he is not that good. If I thought he would be an upgrade to this team I woulda mentioned him earlier in this thread.

Edited July 12, 2005 by Ozzie Montana

[Dick Allen]

Griffey cant play a corner OF spot because of his knee's.... Idonno they did a special on it where it said the CF spot is actually easier on him because of some reason or not.  As far as his defense is today.... Idonno if some of you guys havent seen him play but he is still making those gold glove catches and his range is fine.

He's making diving catches on balls he used to make look routine. The balls he used to make spectacular catches on are going for doubles and triples. I have seen the Reds play 1 game this year. Griffey got a horrible jump on a ball that went for a triple. The pitcher, IIRC it was Merker, couldn't believe Griffey couldn't get to the ball. If he can only play CF, he's not a championship caliber CF at this point in his career.

[VAfan]

I think both Rowand & Uribe are the type of players that are just happy to be on the team.  They know with Ozzie they will get more playing time than on any other contending team.

 

Juggs, I respect your opinion most of the time, but on this point I think you are completely full of it. No guy is going to be "just happy" being moved from a starting player in his mid 20's to the bench. That is the ultimate kiss of death to his career. How would you like it if your boss made a decision that cost you millions of dollars??

[VAfan]

The only stat in there that tells you anything about a player's range (N, S, E, W) to make a play is ZR.

 

Ok, Juggs, do you apply the same rule to CF's??

 

If so, Ken Griffey's .820 ZR is the worst of any major league CF playing in 2005 who qualifies. Willie Taveras of Houston is next worse at .832. Bernie Williams is at .844.

 

Aaron Rowand is at .923, which puts him tied for 4th in the major leagues.

Edited July 12, 2005 by VAfan

[Guest JimH]

Well, this Griffey chatter is interesting but I agree with those who say it will never happen. Guillen has come out and said they do not want to add a superstar position player.

 

I know people are damn sick and tired of hearing about clubhouse chemistry but bringing in KG Jr. alters the chemistry in a big big way.

[toasty]

brett boone to the twinkies for ptbnl

[hi8is]

coulda guessed that one. =P

[quickman]

Well, this Griffey chatter is interesting but I agree with those who say it will never happen.  Guillen has come out and said they do not want to add a superstar position player.

 

I know people are damn sick and tired of hearing about clubhouse chemistry but bringing in KG Jr. alters the chemistry in a big big way.

 

 

First I agree this griffey stuff is nonsense, secondly this club house chemistry is crap as well. The players and manager will make sure everything is fine. Jim, let me say this, if we should blow it and come in second, does it matter if we have great clubhouse chemistry and if all the "guys" like each other. Thats crap, get some better ballplayers and the chemistry and winning will take care of itself.

[Guest JimH]

First I agree this griffey stuff is nonsense, secondly this club house chemistry is crap as well. The players and manager will make sure everything is fine. Jim, let me say this, if we should blow it and come in second, does it matter if we have great clubhouse chemistry and if all the "guys" like each other. Thats crap, get some better ballplayers and the chemistry and winning will take care of itself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, don't agree with this. Very easy to dismiss chemistry, you know personally when you have a good vibe going at your employer and when you don't. Yes they are professionals and it should not make a difference ... they are human and it does matter.

 

My concern is chemistry has become an all consuming factor. They had bad chemistry for 3 years and finished 2nd. Good chemistry is not the sole reason for the 9 game lead ... far from it. It is a very positive factor but it's not the sole reason. As such, it's managements responsibility to add talent to the mix and maintain the chemistry, or enhance it.

 

We will see if they are right or wrong. They have said anyone they bring in will have to fit in. They are adamant about that. It remains to be seen if that's the right call or not.

 

What will likely happen, they will find a guy or two who they already like and are certain will fit in. That's why I still believe the Giants thing has legs. Schmidt is known for being a gamer and they love Vizquel. Not saying those are the only two targets but it's a perfect example. Any acquisition will have to fit, both on and off the field. Sox mgmt. mantra, not mine.

[SoxFan1]

if anyone wants to know why he has a 2.68 and we arent to happy with that is that he allows allota inherited runners to score, i mean a lot!  I have this guy on my fantasy team and he is not that good.  If I thought he would be an upgrade to this team I woulda mentioned him earlier in this thread.

FYI....inherited runners do not go against the pitcher's ERA which INHERITED the runners.

[Guest JimH]

I sense a comment coming ... here it comes ...

 

Tell us about Al's Beef by the way, you will note it did not get the official Jim H. recommendation, ala Stan's Drive In. I just mentioned it was open.

Edited July 12, 2005 by JimH

[quickman]

No, don't agree with this.  Very easy to dismiss chemistry, you know personally when you have a good vibe going at your employer and when you don't.  Yes they are professionals and it should not make a difference ... they are human and it does matter.

 

My concern is chemistry has become an all consuming factor.  They had bad chemistry for 3 years and finished 2nd.  Good chemistry is not the sole reason for the 9 game lead ... far from it.  It is a very positive factor but it's not the sole reason.  As such, it's managements responsibility to add talent to the mix and maintain the chemistry, or enhance it.

 

We will see if they are right or wrong.  They have said anyone they bring in will have to fit in.  They are adamant about that.  It remains to be seen if that's the right call or not.

 

What will likely happen, they will find a guy or two who they already like and are certain will fit in.  That's why I still believe the Giants thing has legs.  Schmidt is known for being a gamer and they love Vizquel.  Not saying those are the only two targets but it's a perfect example.  Any acquisition will have to fit, both on and off the field.  Sox mgmt. mantra, not mine.

 

 

Message to them, your being paid millions, grow up, its Ozzies job and the leaders of the club to keep the "chemistry" Add the pieces you need and win ballgames. I run a sales team, they all get paid, chemistry is good when the numbers are good, the team sucks when the numbers suck. If someone gets out of line, its my job to get them in line, if I need help doing that I reach for my top contributors to help guide. Its done. Get the talent, I don't want this chemistry crap to stop them or be used as an excuse not to trade. They need pieces to win this thing, they CANNOT DO IT with this current team.

[Guest JimH]

Message to them, your being paid millions, grow up, its Ozzies job and the leaders of the club to keep the "chemistry" Add the pieces you need and win ballgames. I run a sales team, they all get paid, chemistry is good when the numbers are good, the team sucks when the numbers suck. If someone gets out of line, its my job to get them in line, if I need help doing that I reach for my top contributors to help guide. Its done. Get the talent, I don't want this chemistry crap to stop them or be used as an excuse not to trade. They need pieces to win this thing, they CANNOT DO IT with this current team.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree with the last sentence, an extra piece or two is needed. Some of these guys will be exposed down the stretch. Just my opinion. If it can magically get done with mostly or all prospects, they'll do it. It would not surprise me if the addition came after the trade deadline though.

 

As for the chemistry part, easy to say what you said. In practice, it's a lot more complicated, whether we the fan like it or not.

[quickman]

I agree with the last sentence, an extra piece or two is needed.  Some of these guys will be exposed down the stretch.  Just my opinion.  If it can magically get done with mostly or all prospects, they'll do it.  It would not surprise me if the addition came after the trade deadline though.

 

As for the chemistry part, easy to say what you said.  In practice, it's a lot more complicated, whether we the fan like it or not.

 

 

Ok we disagree, go figure, but its Ozzies damn job to control this stuff. Lets say we didn't get AJ at the beginning of the year, and now he was available, would you be scared to get him? Think about it. All these guys know each other, word gets around. I think its all overblown. I also think Ozzie shouldn't keep bringing it up. It says two things on a negative side to me. The first is that Ozzie doesn't feel he could control things, (which I don't think is true) the second is they are guarding the whitesox public in case they don't get someone. Anyone coming here will come from a team that won't make it too team that has a great shot to win it all. Its Managements job to control things. Its the veterans job (thomas, Konerko, Buehrle, AJ) job to help control things. GET THE TALENT

[Guest JimH]

Ok we disagree, go figure, but its Ozzies damn job to control this stuff. Lets say we didn't get AJ at the beginning of the year, and now he was available, would you be scared to get him? Think about it. All these guys know each other, word gets around. I think its all overblown. I also think Ozzie shouldn't keep bringing it up. It says two things on a negative side to me. The first is that Ozzie doesn't feel he could control things, (which I don't think is true) the second is they are guarding the whitesox public in case they don't get someone. Anyone coming here will come from a team that won't make it too team that has a great shot to win it all. Its Managements job to control things. Its the veterans job (thomas, Konerko, Buehrle, AJ) job to help control things. GET THE TALENT

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well we agree on getting the talent. Why would we not, and why would the White Sox not want the best team possible? They do, we do. They (and perhaps I) place more weight on a good clubhouse being a huge contributing factor toward a winning team than you do. Given their recent history under KW, I can understand why they'd think that way.

 

By the way, Pierzynski in a lot of ways came hat in hand. He wanted the AL so the Sox lucked into him. A lot of winning is fortuitous, so is chemistry. It's worked out so far. I am convinced they see the holes and will do everything possible to enhance the roster. In a way it was good to hit this speed bump, they have 4 tough ones with Cleveland coming up and this is a litmus test. They've passed most of those this year but they will get tougher tests.

 

Bottom line here, you can't be afraid to add in a year like this, presuming most if not all of the cost will be prospects. Personally I don't think the chemistry thing will come into play if the Sox traded prospects for proven talent. You are right, word gets around, these guys know one another. Where chemistry would be altered is when you start making a s*** load of changes ... as often suggested on this board by some of our more, umm, knee jerk compadres. "Trade Crede for Randa, then trade Uribe for Vizquel, then turn around and trade Dye for this OF, and then make 2 more trades and we win the World Series." They won't do that and they shouldn't do that.

 

Add, don't subtract. In a year like this, all prospects are fair game. Different scenario than last year.

[quickman]

Well we agree on getting the talent.  Why would we not, and why would the White Sox not want the best team possible?  They do, we do.  They (and perhaps I) place more weight on a good clubhouse being a huge contributing factor toward a winning team than you do.  Given their recent history under KW, I can understand why they'd think that way.

 

By the way, Pierzynski in a lot of ways came hat in hand.  He wanted the AL so the Sox lucked into him.  A lot of winning is fortuitous, so is chemistry.  It's worked out so far.  I am convinced they see the holes and will do everything possible to enhance the roster.  In a way it was good to hit this speed bump, they have 4 tough ones with Cleveland coming up and this is a litmus test.  They've passed most of those this year but they will get tougher tests.

 

Bottom line here, you can't be afraid to add in a year like this, presuming most if not all of the cost will be prospects.  Personally I don't think the chemistry thing will come into play if the Sox traded prospects for proven talent.  You are right, word gets around, these guys know one another.  Where chemistry would be altered is when you start making a s*** load of changes ... as often suggested on this board by some of our more, umm, knee jerk compadres.  "Trade Crede for Randa, then trade Uribe for Vizquel, then turn around and trade Dye for this OF, and then make 2 more trades and we win the World Series."  They won't do that and they shouldn't do that. 

 

Add, don't subtract.  In a year like this, all prospects are fair game.  Different scenario than last year.

 

 

Ok I think we are now on track. I would add if it takes getting rid of one guy on our roster then I would chance it based on the person we get in return. As so many say, its a business. There will be so many trades in the next two weeks it will make this conversation look dumb. Many players will change address, all of them have friends, all there wives get along and so on. Get omar visquel, get schmidt or another starter, in fact I would trade to let this team know we will do everything to win the world series. if we don't trade, and we fall short, a good clubhouse means s***. By the way we are finding out what happens when our starting third baseman or starting shortstop or starting second baseman would get injured.We are not deep enough. If crede, Uribe or Iguchi goes out for a month OZUNA and or HARRIS will not take us to the promise land. Thats how vulnerable we are right now.

[Guest JimH]

Ok I think we are now on track. I would add if it takes getting rid of one guy on our roster then I would chance it based on the person we get in return. As so many say, its a business. There will be so many trades in the next two weeks it will make this conversation look dumb. Many players will change address, all of them have friends, all there wives get along and so on. Get omar visquel, get schmidt or another starter, in fact I would trade to let this team know we will do everything to win the world series. if we don't trade, and we fall short, a good clubhouse means s***. By the way we are finding out what happens when our starting third baseman or starting shortstop or starting second baseman would get injured.We are not deep enough. If crede, Uribe or Iguchi goes out for a month OZUNA and or HARRIS will not take us to the promise land. Thats how vulnerable we are right now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, that's what you and I have been saying all along. Get a better bench, and you and I agree that Willie does not constitue having a strong bench. Not meant to open the whole "Willie sucks, no he doesn't" debate that's gone on here for 8 months, but heck I would take this Wilton Guerrero guy they signed for Charlotte over Willie. This guy plays all the positions and he's got experience.

 

As for pitching, you can never have enough and I suspect the White Sox don't, and I expect KW will do something about it. Ideally they need a guy who pounds the strike zone, now who would that be, I hate to bring it up again but Javier Vazquez pounds the strike zone.

 

As for the bench, KW had a fiasco with Brian Daubach so he wants a guy who's content to be a bench player. Forget about Graffanino, that's why he left and let's stop trying to read his mind as to what he'd want or not want. We don't want a guy who's more concerned about his numbers in a contract year vs. coming off the bench and contributing. That screws things up, not indicting Graffanino here but the point stands.

 

Think of the guys KW has liked and/or went after, and you have a decent chance of figuring out who he might target.

[quickman]

you writing a book, come on, come on

[Guest JimH]

you writing a book, come on, come on

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Stop yourself I had to look up Wilton Guerrero. Have a beef sandwich while you wait. Extra giardiniera.