TRADE THREAD III ~July 9 - July 15

[thedoctor]

i'm not kenny rogers fan but just because a guy's a douche to the media doesn't mean he'll be bad in the clubhouse. but as beck said, ajp could probably give a good assessment of his attitude.

[VAfan]

If the Sox get Jason Schmidt and he pitches like he's capable (thats obviously a question-mark) than they do will have the ability go into the playoffs and potentially dominate based on pitching.

 

Personally I'd like to see the Sox add Schmidt, Vizquel, and a quality reliever.  If they do that they'd have 4 good starters (Contreras as the 5th and into the pen in the playoffs) as well as a very strong pen (especially if they could add a guy like Everyday Eddie) and a very solid lineup.  Just imagine moving Guchi down to the 6th spot with Vizquel in the 2 hole.  Guchi is the type of player that could produce at a higher clip (production wise) if moved down.  Not to say Guchi isn't a good 2 hole hitter (he is) but he could also have a lot of success in a more production oriented spot, imo. 

 

I think Kenny should go all out and there are only a few pieces I'd really hold onto.  Brandon McCarthy is one of the guys I'd like to see the Sox keep, but the only can't trade guy I have is Chris Young (I'll deal other guys).

 

Sounds like you agree with my post above (#275). But what do you do about 3B? Happy with Ozuna? Willing to rely on Crede's back? Where's Herb Perry when you need him?

[quickman]

i'm not kenny rogers fan but just because a guy's a douche to the media doesn't mean he'll be bad in the clubhouse. but as beck said, ajp could probably give a good assessment of his attitude.

 

 

Doc, twenty game suspension which he probably won't start serving until the end of the month, Boras as the agent, and he desparatly wants a new three year contract. he is not coming here.

[VAfan]

I think KW has to think in terms of turning this club from one that is thought of as solid but overachieving, to a club that starts to dominate all comers. We've been that way against the weak teams, but we've only really just been competitive against the better teams, and we still have a blind spot against the A's (the same kind of blind spot we used to have against the Twins).

 

That's going to require even better pitching - starting and relieving - and an offense that can beat lefties and righties equally.

 

We have the best record in baseball. But an upgrade in talent would allow us to claim title to being the best team in baseball.

 

When we go into the postseason, I want the White Sox to be the team that everyone else is trying to beat.

[quickman]

I think KW has to think in terms of turning this club from one that is thought of as solid but overachieving, to a club that starts to dominate all comers.  We've been that way against the weak teams, but we've only really just been competitive against the better teams, and we still have a blind spot against the A's (the same kind of blind spot we used to have against the Twins).

 

That's going to require even better pitching - starting and relieving - and an offense that can beat lefties and righties equally. 

 

We have the best record in baseball. But an upgrade in talent would allow us to claim title to being the best team in baseball. 

 

When we go into the postseason, I want the White Sox to be the team that everyone else is trying to beat.

 

 

Exactly my point.

[beck72]

Doc, twenty game suspension which he probably won't start serving until the end of the month, Boras as the agent, and he desparatly wants a new three year contract. he is not coming here.

 

As a 3 month rental [ok two month after the suspension], who needs to "prove himself normal" in order to get a decent contract in 2006 [ like AJ] it wouldn't matter who is agent was. As long as his head wasn't messed up [sounds like Texas was planting stories to the media about him], Rogers would be a nice arm, IMO. The asking price wouldn't be near as high as others mentioned, like Burnett, Schmidt, et al. And other needs [bat, bullpen] could also be addressed.

 

I'd be more concerned about his fitting in with the team. His good glove, his ability to keep teams from running, his good GB ratio, his all would be nice additions.

[quickman]

As a 3 month rental [ok two month after the suspension], who needs to "prove himself normal" in order to get a decent contract in 2006 [ like AJ] it wouldn't matter who is agent was. As long as his head wasn't messed up [sounds like Texas was planting stories to the media about him], Rogers would be a nice arm, IMO. The asking price wouldn't be near as high as others mentioned, like Burnett, Schmidt, et al. And other needs [bat, bullpen] could also be addressed.

 

I'd be more concerned about his fitting in with the team. His good glove, his ability to keep teams from running, his good GB ratio, his all would be nice additions.

 

 

Well I must say I really like this board alot (I mean it) there is such a disparety of comments that its hard to keep track. While I agree he has talent and would help, what would all those people who think we could disturb the chemistry think? All those saying don't mess with this chemistry. You literally would be taking on the most contraversal figure in the game at this time. Where are you people!!!? Where are all those chemistry experts!

[Rowand44]

Well I must say I really like this board alot (I mean it) there is such a disparety of comments that its hard to keep track. While I agree he has talent and would help, what would all those people who think we could disturb the chemistry think? All those saying don't mess with this chemistry. You literally would be taking on the most contraversal figure in the game at this time. Where are you people!!!? Where are all those chemistry experts!

With Rogers from all reports he is a good clubhouse guy and is a pretty good person. He made a mistake, a big one no doubt about that but it was just one mistake. The same thing happened with Carl back in his bosox days and by all reports he's absolutely loved in the clubhouse.

[quickman]

So this chemistry thign is full of s***, because nobody really knows who is good chemistry or bad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CanOfCorn]

With Rogers from all reports he is a good clubhouse guy and is a pretty good person.  He made a mistake, a big one no doubt about that but it was just one mistake.  The same thing happened with Carl back in his bosox days and by all reports he's absolutely loved in the clubhouse.

 

How you relate to the fans or the media and how you are in the clubhouse are two completely different things. Now, would I want the Gambler? Yes, but only as a rental. I think he retires after this year anyway.

[Rowand44]

So this chemistry thign is full of s***, because nobody really knows who is good chemistry or bad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chemistry at times can be overrated and at times it can be underrated. Like you've said earlier they are professionals and they should be able to deal with whatever shape the clubhouse is in: good or bad. However at times a teams chemistry can be so good that they want to win for each other and that they'll give that much extra to get a runner over or dive for a flyball, just anything like that. Sometimes you can like the guys on your team so much that it is an extra benefit to win for them.

[sircaffey]

Kenny Rogers=contract year

 

Motivation enough...

[That funky motion]

I think this Chemistry thing has a lot to do with Oz,Walker.Coop,and Harold. I think that it is a club house that is laid back and with very little pressure. Rogers is a pro and would be fine with this team.

[marsh]

I am not some 15 year old with a crush on a player. Get the players, and its OZZies job to put them where they belong.

 

[beck72]

Well I must say I really like this board alot (I mean it) there is such a disparety of comments that its hard to keep track. While I agree he has talent and would help, what would all those people who think we could disturb the chemistry think? All those saying don't mess with this chemistry. You literally would be taking on the most contraversal figure in the game at this time. Where are you people!!!? Where are all those chemistry experts!

 

My take on the sox "chemistry" is they have found guys who want to win, who will sacrifice some of their game in order to help the team accomplish its goals.

 

Even if a guy has some faults, if he can come in here and not "ruffle any feathers", and show a strong desire to win at any cost, even at the expense of some stats, that shouldn't disrupt the "team concept/ chemistry" the Sox have going, he would be welcomed.

 

If Rogers [or other deadline additions] just want to get paid, and are out looking for their next big contract, f*** 'em.

[Dick Allen]

I think this Chemistry thing has a lot to do with Oz,Walker.Coop,and Harold. I think that it is a club house that is laid back and with very little pressure. Rogers is a pro and would be fine with this team. 

 

 

Chemistry is a bunch of BS someone once made up when there was no statistical explanation as to why a team was winning. Now every time a team does well, they have great "chemistry". There are plenty of teams who hated each other and still won, and there are a lot of teams that hung out everywhere together and loved each other but still sucked. Teams that pitch and field the best, and get the timely hits, Hawk's best line is don't tell me what you hit, tell me when you hit it, wins the game. For years Frank Thomas couldn't get a hit to save his life in a 1 run game, but if the score was 10-2 he was going deep. He has changed that around the last couple of years, and has a few teammates that can get a big hit when the game's on the line, something this team has lacked for a few years. Any top quality pitcher would be an solid addition to this team, whether he is the greatest guy in the world or the biggest jerk.

[Balta1701]

How you relate to the fans or the media and how you are in the clubhouse are two completely different things.  Now, would I want the Gambler?  Yes, but only as a rental.  I think he retires after this year anyway.

Rogers won't retire. As others have said, this is his contract year. According to his own words today, one of the things that's been gnawing at him is that Texas wouldn't give him a new contract that he was happy with.

[Guest JimH]

So this chemistry thign is full of s***, because nobody really knows who is good chemistry or bad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Are you nuts or what?

 

It's not for us to say and it's not for us to judge. Stop trying to throw a blanket answer over every issue, it simply does not work that way.

 

These players know one another as you correctly pointed out. Additionally, those in charge of White Sox acquisitions know these players. Kenny Rogers made a huge mistake and there will be a black cloud around him the rest of this year, particularly if he's in the heat of a pennant race.

 

A judgement call has to be made based on KW's and Guillen's perception of K. Rogers character, or any acquisition for that matter. If they feel whatever talent a player might bring will distract somehow from the team playing as a cohesive unit, they won't pull the trigger. That simple.

 

All this chemistry talk that you dismiss as BS is simply Kenny Williams placing more weight on the issue than he has in the past. He brought in talent in the past without considering the chemistry issue. Guess what, the Sox have not won. This year, they are winning. What does that tell you? If it tells you chemistry has no bearing whatsoever, and that they can somehow just tell these players "grow up, you're making millions, just go out and play" then I think you truly are nuts.

 

Dig a little deeper than a simplistic "just bring in the talent" mantra. You said I post the same s*** all the time, I have read your posts in this thread and the underlying message is the same all along ... Screw the chemistry, bring in the talent.

 

I wish it were that easy. If top talent were available for middle-of-the-road prospects only, KW would've pulled a deal already. Look what it cost the SF Giants to bring in a headcase in Latroy, two of their best pitching prospects. Will Jason Schmidt and Omar Vizquel magically get traded here for the same or less? I highly doubt it.

 

As always, this will be a matter of timing, aggresiveness, and bringing in the right person. Every team wants to improve - no one is on a special mission to help out the White Sox. We should be glad that money is not a complicating factor. Now they have to find a trade match and it's not easy.

 

In direct answer to your statement, people on this message board don't know who will fit and who won't. We don't know who's nursing a sore arm on other teams either. All we can do is speculate, and that's what this board is for. But please expand your horizons to understand it's not as simple as "bring in the talent".

[Rowand44]

Chemistry is a bunch of BS someone once made up when there was no statistical explanation as to why a team was winning. Now every time a team does well, they have great "chemistry". There are plenty of teams who hated each other and still won, and there are a lot of teams that hung out everywhere together and loved each other but still sucked. Teams that pitch and field the best, and get the timely hits, Hawk's best line is don't tell me what you hit, tell me when you hit it, wins the game. For years Frank Thomas couldn't get a hit to save his life in a 1 run game, but if the score was 10-2 he was going deep. He has changed that around the last couple of years, and has a few teammates that can get a big hit when the game's on the line, something this team has lacked for a few years. Any top quality pitcher would be an solid addition to this team, whether he is the greatest guy in the world or the biggest jerk.

Have you played sports before?

[Dick Allen]

Have you played sports before?

 

As a matter of fact I didn't have to pay for college because I played sports. Your point.

[Rowand44]

As a matter of fact I didn't have to pay for college because I played sports. Your point.

I was just asking because I've been on teams I absolutely hated and teams I absolutely loved. When you're on a team you like there is an extra added something that really can't be described in words. Obviously you're going to play your best whether you like your team or not but from experience you'll probably play a little better playing with teammates you like.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Chemistry is certainly important & don't kid yourself it's not. If Beltran had not bonded with the rest of the Astros there's no way they go on that run. Sometimes the guy bonds & sometimes he doesn't. Everett certainly has bonded with the White Sox in now 2 tours of duty.

 

I think Rogers would bond. I didn't hear any complaints about him when he pitched for the Twins. I personally think this is a Gammons wish rather than a plausible rumor. The only reason I can see the Rangers trading Rogers is for PR. They've taken a hit over the incident & it might be better to give him a fresh start.

 

I don't believe that. Trading an ace when your in the race is a white flag move. It doesn't matter who you get it's not going to be enough to keep you in the race. Texas does not have that kind of owner & is not likely to do that. The best thing to cure a PR hit for the Rangers is to win. Prove they can win while Rogers is serving time & the media will think even more of them.

 

If KW did find out the Twins were the likely destination for him then he's got to make a move to counter. Either keep Rogers from going there or trade for someone as good or better. That's a total order considering he's a proven AL LHSP.

[Balta1701]

I don't believe that.  Trading an ace when your in the race is a white flag move.  It doesn't matter who you get it's not going to be enough to keep you in the race.  Texas does not have that kind of owner & is not likely to do that.  The best thing to cure a PR hit for the Rangers is to win.  Prove they can win while Rogers is serving time & the media will think even more of them.

Wow, I actually agree with Juggernaut.

 

White Flag trades are particularly bad for the simple reason of attendance. A white flag trade, like dumping your #1 starter and all-star pitcher for pitching prospects, tells your fans that you don't care about this season and you're going to wait until next year. And therefore, unless you're the Cubs, your fans will probably also wait until next year to come out to the ballpark. Hence, you'll lose a ton of cash just because of the trade.

 

Texas will be looking to add, not subtract. They're close enough that they can dangle the wild card in front of their fans and use it to fill seats.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Omar will fit right in. 05 RON .365/.907, 04 RON .332/.852

 

Pods, Iguchi, Omar, Thomas/Everett, Koney/Gload, Dye, Rowand, AJ

 

It doesn't matter whether Omar hits 2 or 3. What matters most is that he will have Pods/Iguchi ahead of him & Thomas/Everett behind him. That should bring out the best in Omar. He has better RON numbers than Iguchi so he deserves #3.

[RockRaines]

What is wrong with everyone. I didnt know this was Kenny Rogers love time. The guy flat out blows down the stretch and in postseason play. With respect to Kyle.

 

Kenny Rogers Postseason numbers

 

3 division series(4 games pitched, 2 started) with a record of 0-1, 7.7 innings pitched, and ERA of 7.04, 11 hits, 6 Earned Runs, 5 BB, 10 K

 

2 Championship series (4 games pitched, 2 starts) with a 0-2 record, 10.7 innings pitched, 7.59 ERA, 16 hits, 9 Earned Runs, 9 BB, 5 K

 

World Series (9 games pitched, 5 games started) with a 0-3 record, 20.3 innings, 32 hits, 20 earned runs, 16 BB, 15 Ks

 

 

El Duque is proven a better player in the situation. Kenny Rogers is missing ALOT of games and is a notoriously slow second half player. With respect to everyone, Kenny Rogers sucks at the end of the year and in the clutch. He is NOT the solution.