TRADE THREAD III ~July 9 - July 15

[Balta1701]

It's arguable whether McCarthy is a major league ready pitcher.

I'm one of the biggest "For the love of god don't trade BMac yet" guys around here, and even I'm convinced he's not a major league ready pitcher.

 

He needs to work specifically on several things;

 

1. His changeup. He needs to throw it more often and throw it more often for strikes. This was the pitch that was really helping him eat people alive in the spring, but he's been inconsistent with it all season, to the point that people can sit on his fastball/curveball and drive those pitches.

2. His location with his fastball. Too many pitches drifting towards the center of the plate.

3. Growing up - the kid has to be able to stick a few more pounds of muscle on that frame. Will probably add a couple more MPH to his fastball if he does.

4. (My hope) - 1 more pitch, possibly a cut fastball. He'll be a very good pitcher if he can go up there with control and throw his other 3 pitches for strikes, but if he can throw something into the mix inbetween the offspeed pitches and the fastball, like a cutter with a little bit of movement, no one will be able to hit him.

 

I still say we can't trade him on the grounds that we need to have young guys coming along to keep salary under control, but he needs some serious work this offseason.

[Chisoxfn]

So the Jays payroll can be 60 mill higher 2 years from now???

 

Does that sound fishy to anyone else.

[Milkman delivers]

So the Jays payroll can be 60 mill higher 2 years from now???

 

Does that sound fishy to anyone else.

 

No, that's 60 million Canadian. It's only about 43 bucks here.

[Balta1701]

So the Jays payroll can be 60 mill higher 2 years from now???

 

Does that sound fishy to anyone else.

The Blue Jays committed last offseason to spending $200 million on salary over the next 3 years.

[JUGGERNAUT]

I know you don't care but starting 1B Rogowksi was 1-3 w 3 RBI in last night's AA all-star game. C Chris Stewart scored a R. The South got beat badly 11-6. Two Baron pitchers got in the game. One pitched a scoreless inning & the other did not.

 

Okay onto the trade talk.

My point about NL pitchers is that you really should look at their numbers from 1-6 & ignore what they do from 7-9. Since the advent of moden free-agency the DH position in the AL is becoming a haven for past all-stars, HOFers, & just all around decently sized members of the monster bash. Piazza is expected to join the ranks next year.

 

The weak hitting pitcher in the NL has a dominoe effect. It hurts the #1 guy & the #8 guy. When you hurt the #8 guy that hurts the #7 guy as well. That's why 7-9 in the NL is usually 200 or more points lower in OPS than in the AL. On some teams a weak #7 cascades all the way down to #6. But most #6 hitters in the NL are strong enough to where it doesn't matter.

 

That's why it's never about where you hit in the lineup as it is about who hits around you.

 

So let's look at the off/on AJ Burnett:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/spli...ching&year=2005

Batting #1 .135/.328 - wow!

Batting #2 .275/.704 - pretty good.

Batting #3 .260/.679 - awesome!

Batting #4 .227/.699 - awesome!

Batting #5 .265/.627 - wow!

Batting #6 .200/.599 - cool!

Batting #7 .310/.891 - wth?

Batting #8 .267/.757 - really?

Batting #9 .195/.408 - duh!

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/spli...4&type=pitching

03-05

Batting #1 .222/.655 - pretty good!

Batting #2 .219/.622 - wow!

Batting #3 .265/.664 - awesome!

Batting #4 .234/.720 - wow!

Batting #5 .231/.678 - awesome!

Batting #6 .246/.699 - pretty good!

Batting #7 .144/.486 - stupid pitcher effect

Batting #8 .234/.692 - stupid pitcher effect

Batting #9 .138/.372 - man do they suck! Stupid pitchers can't hit a lick

 

I agree Burnett looks to be 100% AL proof. Too bad his record doesn't

reflect it. Schmidty has post season success & experience. Burny doesn't.

But if the asking price for Schmidt's is Garland - sayonara dude.

 

I think it all comes down to what's the asking price. I think we all can agree that Lilly will command a much lower price.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlbpa/players/6223/gamelog

Damn impressive. It's a who's who of contenders & lineups in the AL & NL.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlbpa/players/6314/gamelog

Less impressive.

 

My vote still goes to Lilly. His fastball is more livelier than in 2004, & he

features a good curveball & changeup. When I think of Lilly I think of a head case like Contra before he came to the Sox. If you were a betting man you would say Lilly has greater odds at greater success with the Sox than the Blue Jays. Contract wise: The Sox would inherit an option for 06.

 

The reason why I'm leaning towards Lilly is because you can pick him up as insurance for El Duque. Say what you will but I really like the idea of El Duque finishing strong for the Sox in Sept & into Oct. The less the AL sees of him the better.

 

I don't care if that means El Duque sits all of Aug. If we play .500 in the 2nd half we win 95 games. We can do that with Lilly in place of El Duque

easy.

 

El Duque' is 9-3 in 14 post-season starts in his career with a 2.65 ERA.

Call it luck, call it skill, call it temperment, call it guile, call it whatever you

want but time & again he gets the job done.

 

I believe as Yankee fans do that if he held Brown's spot in the Yankee's post season rotation vs BOS the Yankees win that series. There is no doubt in mind. BOS WS championship was built on Brown's collapse & there was nothing in his Sept performance to believe it wasn't coming.

 

Guillen: "I think he’ll (El Duque) be ready to perform. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with his shoulder and he’s had time to rest. We expect him to come back and pitch like Duque.’’

 

One word on chemistry. I think El Duque is part of it. I think he has bonded well with Jose, Garcia, Vizc, Marte, & Uribe. A happy solidly performing El Duque is better than any one else we can get at this time.

 

Lilly's acquistion makes Beane like sense for this team. We need a guy

who can give us solid spot starts & solid long relief down the stretch & into October. We don't need another solid front line starter.

[Dick Allen]

I know you don't care but starting 1B Rogowksi was 1-3 w 3 RBI in last night's AA all-star game.  C Chris Stewart scored a R.  The South got beat badly 11-6.  Two Baron pitchers got in the game.  One pitched a scoreless inning & the other did not.

 

Okay onto the trade talk. 

My point about NL pitchers is that you really should look at their numbers from 1-6 & ignore what they do from 7-9.  Since the advent of moden free-agency the DH position in the AL is becoming a haven for past all-stars, HOFers, & just all around decently sized members of the monster bash.  Piazza is expected to join the ranks next year.

 

The weak hitting pitcher in the NL has a dominoe effect.  It hurts the #1 guy & the #8 guy.  When you hurt the #8 guy that hurts the #7 guy as well.  That's why 7-9 in the NL is usually 200 or more points lower in OPS than in the AL.  On some teams a weak #7 cascades all the way down to #6.  But most #6 hitters in the NL are strong enough to where it doesn't matter.

 

That's why it's never about where you hit in the lineup as it is about who hits around you.

 

So let's look at the off/on AJ Burnett:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/spli...ching&year=2005

Batting #1 .135/.328 - wow!

Batting #2 .275/.704 - pretty good.

Batting #3 .260/.679 - awesome!

Batting #4 .227/.699 - awesome!

Batting #5 .265/.627 - wow!

Batting #6 .200/.599 - cool!

Batting #7 .310/.891 - wth?

Batting #8 .267/.757 - really?

Batting #9 .195/.408 - duh!

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/spli...4&type=pitching

03-05

Batting #1 .222/.655 - pretty good!

Batting #2 .219/.622 - wow!

Batting #3 .265/.664 - awesome!

Batting #4 .234/.720 - wow!

Batting #5 .231/.678 - awesome!

Batting #6 .246/.699 - pretty good!

Batting #7 .144/.486 - stupid pitcher effect

Batting #8 .234/.692 - stupid pitcher effect

Batting #9 .138/.372 - man do they suck!  Stupid pitchers can't hit a lick

 

I agree Burnett looks to be 100% AL proof.  Too bad his record doesn't

reflect it.  Schmidty has post season success & experience.  Burny doesn't.

But if the asking price for Schmidt's is Garland - sayonara dude.

 

I think it all comes down to what's the asking price.  I think we all can agree that Lilly will command a much lower price.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlbpa/players/6223/gamelog

Damn impressive.  It's a who's who of contenders & lineups in the AL & NL.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlbpa/players/6314/gamelog

Less impressive.

 

My vote still goes to Lilly.  His fastball is more livelier than in 2004, & he

features a good curveball & changeup. When I think of Lilly I think of a head case like Contra before he came to the Sox.  If you were a betting man you would say Lilly has greater odds at greater success with the Sox than the Blue Jays.  Contract wise: The Sox would inherit an option for 06.

 

The reason why I'm leaning towards Lilly is because you can pick him up as insurance for El Duque.  Say what you will but I really like the idea of El Duque finishing strong for the Sox in Sept & into Oct.  The less the AL sees of him the better.

 

I don't care if that means El Duque sits all of Aug.  If we play .500 in the 2nd half we win 95 games.  We can do that with Lilly in place of El Duque

easy. 

 

El Duque' is 9-3 in 14 post-season starts in his career with a 2.65 ERA. 

Call it luck, call it skill, call it temperment, call it guile, call it whatever you

want but time & again he gets the job done.

 

I believe as Yankee fans do that if he held Brown's spot in the Yankee's post season rotation vs BOS the Yankees win that series.  There is no doubt in mind.  BOS WS championship was built on Brown's collapse & there was nothing in his Sept performance to believe it wasn't coming.

 

Guillen: "I think he’ll (El Duque) be ready to perform. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with his shoulder and he’s had time to rest. We expect him to come back and pitch like Duque.’’

 

One word on chemistry.  I think El Duque is part of it.  I think he has bonded well with Jose, Garcia, Vizc, Marte, & Uribe.  A happy solidly performing El Duque is better than any one else we can get at this time.

 

Lilly's acquistion makes Beane like sense for this team.  We need a guy

who can give us solid spot starts & solid long relief down the stretch & into October.  We don't need another solid front line starter.

 

Speaking of El Duque and chemistry, does anyone remember a couple of years ago when El Duque decked Jorge Posada with a punch to the side of the head?

[JUGGERNAUT]

My wish list:

Lilly for spot starts & long relief

Randa to backup Crede at 3B

Omar to make Uribe the sub at SS, & 2B

 

If KW does that we can beat OAK & anybody else in the ALDS & ALCS. The moves Beane made make perfect sense in terms of who has fueled their 27-11 record since May 30th & what that team needs to be even better. They are my pick to win the ALWC & face the White Sox in the first round.

 

That being said I will be rooting against them (Oak) with all my heart

[3E8]

But if the asking price for Schmidt's is Garland - sayonara dude.

what

[KevHead0881]

FWIW, here's what Jayson Stark thinks about what its gonna take to get Burnett. This was from an ESPN chat wrap.

 

Greg, San Francisco: What would it take to get AJ Burnett? And would the Marlins be willing to trade him within the division-ie the phightin sillies?

 

Jayson Stark: (1:08 PM ET ) The Marlins have a tough call on whether to trade Burnett or not. It's tough to trade a guy with his kind of stuff if you can't be assured of having Josh Beckett healthy. And for the last few weeks, Beckett hasn't been able to stay healthy for more than a few innings at a time. The Marlins are trying to follow the same model they followed last year when they traded Brad Penny: We'll trade somebody you'd never think we'd trade, but only if we get multiple pieces back you never thought we could get back. And they'd be doing it not to sell but to win now. So a lot of things have to come together for Burnett even to get traded.

[Balta1701]

Speaking of El Duque and chemistry, does anyone remember a couple of years ago when El Duque decked Jorge Posada with a punch to the side of the head?

Speaking of chemistry, does anyone remember when A.J. kneed a trainer?

[Dick Allen]

Speaking of chemistry, does anyone remember when A.J. kneed a trainer?

AJ never kneed a trainer, but El Duque did knock Posada down with an overhand right to the temple. El Duque was not well-liked on the Yankees, just like AJ had his detractors in SF and even people on this board didn't want him signed. To me it shows KW would be better off relying on talent than chemistry. If chemistry were the end all, neither AJ or El Duque would have been given the benefit of the doubt, and Jaime Burke would be the starting catcher, and the Charlotte shuttle would be manning the 5th spot in the White Sox rotation.

[DukeNukeEm]

AJ never kneed a trainer, but El Duque did knock Posada down with an overhand right to the temple. El Duque was not well-liked on the Yankees, just like AJ had his detractors in SF and even people on this board didn't want him signed. To me it shows KW would be better off relying on talent than chemistry. If chemistry were the end all, neither AJ or El Duque would have been given the benefit of the doubt, and Jaime Burke would be the starting catcher, and the Charlotte shuttle would be manning the 5th spot in the White Sox rotation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

:headshake

[southsideirish71]

The wait on these trades is starting to remind me of the hot stove action in the winter after the FA's started to sign.

 

LETS GO KENNY, OZZIE AND THE KIDS HAVE DONE THEIR PART. LETS GET THAT FINAL PIECE TO THE PUZZLE AND LETS MAKE A RUN.

[Guest JimH]

AJ never kneed a trainer, but El Duque did knock Posada down with an overhand right to the temple. El Duque was not well-liked on the Yankees, just like AJ had his detractors in SF and even people on this board didn't want him signed. To me it shows KW would be better off relying on talent than chemistry. If chemistry were the end all, neither AJ or El Duque would have been given the benefit of the doubt, and Jaime Burke would be the starting catcher, and the Charlotte shuttle would be manning the 5th spot in the White Sox rotation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Assumptions, all assumptions.

[Dick Allen]

Assumptions, all assumptions.

Yes, you're right. KW probably would have picked up another starter, although BMac would have started out with the team with the spring he had. He also seemed pretty content with Davis and Burke as the catchers when he initially said no to AJ. Of course that could have been some posturing. My point is I don't think they should be so concerned about ruining this chemistry they constantly mention. If it is as strong as they think, 1 or 2 or even 3 total jerks shouldn't be able to ruin it. Also, just because a guy is perceived trouble on some other team, doesn't mean will be trouble if he came to the White Sox.

Edited July 14, 2005 by Dick Allen

[JUGGERNAUT]

It seems to me the asking price for both Schmidt & Burnett is too high.

Garland for Schmidt? Hell no. A Penny like pkg for Burnett? No.

Burnett & Ozzie are not good friends nor do they share any family like ties.

Burnett is a rent-a-player no matter who trades for him. He's not going to pass up what he's likely to get on the open market in an off-season where he'll be the #1 target.

 

With Halladay down Lilly has been promoted to #1 in the TBJ rotation. They do have a fan base to appease so his price just went up. You're asking them to trade their current #1. That won't come cheap. They had to promote from w/in for their 5th & with Lilly gone they would be expecting at player in return who could be a #3/#4 on their team.

 

I think KW should concentrate on Omar & Randa since they seem more likely candidates on teams going no where.

[beck72]

FWIW, the A's have a tough schedule before the trade deadline, esp. the next 10 or so vs. Texas and LAA. Then they play the AL Central into early Aug. Here's hoping the A's tank quickly so Zito is on the block

[GreatScott82]

THe Marlins beat-writer was just on 670WSCR and confirmed that 12 teams are after Burnett, but the 3 major teams interester are Baltamore, Toronto and the White Sox. He said the Marlins have been interested in Contreras for over 2 years now- and see him as there potential closer. He also said the Marlins want to dump Mike Lowell's contract so would most likely have to be involved with this trade. So this trade would most likely be: Contreras, Marte and Crede for Burnett and Lowell. WOW- thats Blockbuster.

[Wedge]

FWIW, the A's have a tough schedule before the trade deadline, esp. the next 10 or so vs. Texas and LAA. Then they play the AL Central into early Aug. Here's hoping the A's tank quickly so Zito is on the block

 

Beane has stated repeatedly that Zito goes nowhere during the season. Either he means it or the price for Zito will be outrageous.

[Milkman delivers]

THe Marlins beat-writer was just on 670WSCR and confirmed that 12 teams are after Burnett, but the 3 major teams interester are Baltamore, Toronto and the White Sox.  He said the Marlins have been interested in Contreras for over 2 years now- and see him as there potential closer. He also said the Marlins want to dump Mike Lowell's contract so would most likely have to be involved with this trade. So this trade would most likely be: Contreras, Marte and Crede for Burnett and Lowell. WOW- thats Blockbuster.

 

I don't know if I like all of that, especially since the Marlins have no money and I assume we'll have to eat a lot of contracts.

[Wedge]

THe Marlins beat-writer was just on 670WSCR and confirmed that 12 teams are after Burnett, but the 3 major teams interester are Baltamore, Toronto and the White Sox.  He said the Marlins have been interested in Contreras for over 2 years now- and see him as there potential closer. He also said the Marlins want to dump Mike Lowell's contract so would most likely have to be involved with this trade. So this trade would most likely be: Contreras, Marte and Crede for Burnett and Lowell. WOW- thats Blockbuster.

 

That is blockbuster; however, we have to remember what the goal of acquiring another starting pitcher is: to replace HERNANDEZ. If we trade Contreras, we still have the same problem that we had before.

[GreatScott82]

can someone find info on Lowell's contract status.

[Wedge]

can someone find info on Lowell's contract status.

 

linky

 

EDIT: looks like he's signed for 2005 and 2006 at about $8/year.

Edited July 14, 2005 by Wedge

[Kyyle23]

THe Marlins beat-writer was just on 670WSCR and confirmed that 12 teams are after Burnett, but the 3 major teams interester are Baltamore, Toronto and the White Sox.  He said the Marlins have been interested in Contreras for over 2 years now- and see him as there potential closer. He also said the Marlins want to dump Mike Lowell's contract so would most likely have to be involved with this trade. So this trade would most likely be: Contreras, Marte and Crede for Burnett and Lowell. WOW- thats Blockbuster.

 

Thats absolutely huge. But does it solve the problem of insuring against El Duque's health? Nope.

 

This could possibly exaggerate the problem, with Lowell and his down year(.226, 4 HR, .282 OBP, .351 SLG, 36 RBI) making Crede look like a godsend, and no gaurantees for Burnett.

 

This could be a bad deal.

[Wedge]

Thats absolutely huge.  But does it solve the problem of insuring against El Duque's health? Nope.

 

This could possibly exaggerate the problem, with Lowell and his down year(.226, 4 HR, .282 OBP, .351 SLG, 36 RBI) making Crede look like a godsend, and no gaurantees for Burnett.

 

This could be a bad deal.

 

Agreed that this could be a deal that looks really good... if it was 2003 or 2004. How is Lowell's defense? I'm unfamiliar since I haven't watched him play except in spots (playoffs/interleague vs. White Sox).